the challenges with policing on the ground _ the challenges with policing on the ground is— the challenges with policing on the ground is achieving the level of certainty— ground is achieving the level of certainty around exactly... and i think_ certainty around exactly... and i think if— certainty around exactly... and i think if you _ certainty around exactly... and i think if you take that final paragraph there, that is highlighted in red. _ paragraph there, that is highlighted in red, there is so much in their back— in red, there is so much in their back gate — in red, there is so much in their back gate is— in red, there is so much in their back gate is open to interpretation, and that— back gate is open to interpretation, and that makes that very difficult power _ and that makes that very difficult power for— and that makes that very difficult power for anyone to confidently use on the _ power for anyone to confidently use on the street that, as it happens and as— on the street that, as it happens and as it — on the street that, as it happens and as it turned out, in fact... perhaps — and as it turned out, in fact... perhaps for— and as it turned out, in fact... perhaps for that reason it wasn't a power that really featured during the course of the pandemic. we can probably afford to leave that there. that is to be contrasted is it not with the powers in the second column, the power, the duty, to enforce the various different regulations made relating to the pandemic, and there are just three described here and we bury mind that this document dates from early in 2020. it is right, and we will come to discuss this over the course of the following 12—18 months, that there was a proliferation of similar regulations made, which the police were required to consider.- were required to consider. correct. when that happens _ were required to consider. correct. when that happens where - were required to consider. correct. when that happens where further. when that happens where further versions of this document produce? the process that we went through, by my reckoning, there was something over 140 _ my reckoning, there was something over 140 changes during the period, over140 changes during the period, either— over 140 changes during the period, either a _ over 140 changes during the period, eithera minor over 140 changes during the period, either a minor change or over 140 changes during the period, eithera minor change ora either a minor change or a significant eithera minor change ora significant change that came out. the process that was undertaken and we might— the process that was undertaken and we might talk about this in more detail, _ we might talk about this in more detail, we — we might talk about this in more detail, we would proceed with that and then— detail, we would proceed with that and then provide operational guidance to horses to allow them to have the _ guidance to horses to allow them to have the best understanding they could _ have the best understanding they could of— have the best understanding they could of how —— to forces. for the powers— could of how —— to forces. for the powers that — could of how —— to forces. for the powers that were active at that particular — powers that were active at that particular point in time to stop and that was— particular point in time to stop and that was as — particular point in time to stop and that was as you could imagine our rolling _ that was as you could imagine our rolling process, as things have changed — rolling process, as things have changed and were superseded. so it was pretty— changed and were superseded. so it was pretty much a seven day a week process— was pretty much a seven day a week process to _ was pretty much a seven day a week process to keep up to speed and to ensure. _ process to keep up to speed and to ensure. of— process to keep up to speed and to ensure, of course, we have to bear in nrind— ensure, of course, we have to bear in mind that — ensure, of course, we have to bear in mind that there would often be differences in different countries, and then— differences in different countries, and then add varies later stages when _ and then add varies later stages when we — and then add varies later stages when we ended up in local lockdowns and in _ when we ended up in local lockdowns and in tiers, — when we ended up in local lockdowns and in tiers, within a different police — and in tiers, within a different police force area you would have different — police force area you would have different regulations being in play at the _ different regulations being in play at the same time which created all sorts— at the same time which created all sorts of— at the same time which created all sorts of challenges as you might imagine — sorts of challenges as you might imagine for policing on the ground. i imagine for policing on the ground. i was _ imagine for policing on the ground. i was going — imagine for policing on the ground. i was going to ask you about that. when one did get to the stage of different regulations being made let's say in scotland or, as you say later on particularly with the tiering structure, different regulations within different parts of the country, was it still your role to try and draft, with the college, which you could send to the local police forces? thea;r college, which you could send to the local police forces?— local police forces? they would have been clearly — local police forces? they would have been clearly more _ local police forces? they would have been clearly more specific _ local police forces? they would have been clearly more specific and - been clearly more specific and related — been clearly more specific and related to individual areas and then within— related to individual areas and then within individual police forces, they— within individual police forces, they would have to be managing those processes _ they would have to be managing those processes themselves, as well, because — processes themselves, as well, because it — processes themselves, as well, because it did get incredibly complex at times. just because it did get incredibly complex at times. because it did get incredibly comlex at times. , , ., ., ., , complex at times. just moving on as far as this document _ complex at times. just moving on as far as this document is _ complex at times. just moving on as far as this document is concerned, l far as this document is concerned, we have looked at column one column two, they were both legal duties, legal matters for the police to enforce. on the third column, you refer to something different which is government guidance. again this is government guidance. again this is a point we will come back to. but, the message is given here, it seems that police officers need to be aware that guidance is not the law, and they should bear that in mind in enforcing particular regulations.— mind in enforcing particular reuulations. . ., . , , regulations. that was an incredibly im ortant regulations. that was an incredibly important point. _ regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and _ regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and i'm _ regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and i'm sure - regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and i'm sure that| important point. and i'm sure that we will— important point. and i'm sure that we will talk— important point. and i'm sure that we will talk more about that. but we police _ we will talk more about that. but we police to _ we will talk more about that. but we police to the law, and i think the challenge, — police to the law, and i think the challenge, at times, when things that were — challenge, at times, when things that were guidance were being spoken about in— that were guidance were being spoken about in a _ that were guidance were being spoken about in a way that suggested they were a _ about in a way that suggested they were a regulation was a real challenge for the service. a couple more shut points _ challenge for the service. a couple more shut points in _ challenge for the service. a couple more shut points in this _ challenge for the service. a couple | more shut points in this document. first of all we can see, both at the bottom of column one, and at the bottom of column one, and at the bottom of column two, and note that the powers that are being discussed in each of those columns also apply to children. that was honestly the case. i am going to come back and ask further questions about that in due course, but this clearly was something that you thought it was important to fly officers. absolutely. —— to flag to officers. regulations had, we needed to be as clear as _ regulations had, we needed to be as clear as possible. this was always an exercise — clear as possible. this was always an exercise in reducing the question marks— an exercise in reducing the question marks in— an exercise in reducing the question marks in the — an exercise in reducing the question marks in the minds of the officer on the ground, — marks in the minds of the officer on the ground, because importantly, as ithink— the ground, because importantly, as i think we _ the ground, because importantly, as i think we will come on to talk about, — i think we will come on to talk about, in— i think we will come on to talk about, in ourfour i think we will come on to talk about, in our four e's approach, the second _ about, in our four e's approach, the second of— about, in our four e's approach, the second of those was, when talking to a member— second of those was, when talking to a member of the public could only be done if— a member of the public could only be done if an— a member of the public could only be done if an officer themselves understood the regulations at that time which was very challenging, as things— time which was very challenging, as things progress. the time which was very challenging, as things progress— things progress. the second point noes things progress. the second point aoes back things progress. the second point goes back to _ things progress. the second point goes back to a — things progress. the second point goes back to a point _ things progress. the second point goes back to a point you - things progress. the second point goes back to a point you made - things progress. the second point goes back to a point you made in| things progress. the second point i goes back to a point you made in the context of the power, the duty under the act, directing people to be tested. it applies does it not through the second column as well, in the sense that, what police officers were being asked to do here involved them exercising a very great degree of discretion. one can contrasted perhaps with the straightforward prevention or detection of crime issue. if you see someone shoplifting, you take action. it is a binary thing. here, their task was much more complicated. it their task was much more complicated.— their task was much more complicated. their task was much more comlicated. , ., ., ., complicated. it is fair to say that in everyday _ complicated. it is fair to say that in everyday policing _ complicated. it is fair to say that in everyday policing before - in everyday policing before coronavirus and post coronavirus, police _ coronavirus and post coronavirus, police officers on the ground have discretion — police officers on the ground have discretion. and that is the right way that— discretion. and that is the right way that we operate, they police to the law _ way that we operate, they police to the law but they have discretion on the law but they have discretion on the ground. what this did was bring into play. _ the ground. what this did was bring into play. a — the ground. what this did was bring into play, a whole range of situations that were utterly different from your shoplifter example where the crime is the crime that most— example where the crime is the crime that most people would understand that. that most people would understand that it _ that most people would understand that. it took it into a very different— that. it took it into a very different space. and if i am right, one thing — different space. and if i am right, one thing that i think is important about— one thing that i think is important about the — one thing that i think is important about the second box is when it mentions — about the second box is when it mentions trading standards and local authorities. i think throughout the pandemic— authorities. i think throughout the pandemic i— authorities. i think throughout the pandemic i had a sense of frustration at times, whenever politically people were talking about — politically people were talking about enforcement, that automatically recalled the police and the — automatically recalled the police and the reality was, this was about achieving _ and the reality was, this was about achieving compliance with regulations which were there to protect— regulations which were there to protect people. this pulls out trading — protect people. this pulls out trading standards in local authorities but in other cases there were _ authorities but in other cases there were loads — authorities but in other cases there were loads of businesses, the work that was— were loads of businesses, the work that was done within supermarkets by the staff— that was done within supermarkets by the staff to _ that was done within supermarkets by the staff to enforce, if you like, compliance with the regulations, and ithink— compliance with the regulations, and i think it _ compliance with the regulations, and i think it is _ compliance with the regulations, and i think it is important... there was frustration — i think it is important... there was frustration at — i think it is important... there was frustration at times from my perspective that enforcement with automatically equal to police when it was— automatically equal to police when it was really about a much broader effort _ it was really about a much broader effort to— it was really about a much broader effort to achieve compliance. yes, well, that complexity, _ effort to achieve compliance. yes, well, that complexity, the - effort to achieve compliance. is: well, that complexity, the novelty of what the police were being asked to do was something you sought to address by providing them with a guidance we see in the bottom right—hand corner of the box, to engage, explain, encourage, enforce the guidance. that is something we can see addressed more fully into another document, if you want to go to that, please, 99936. you see there that the four e's that became commonly described, i don't want to read the document out or go through it in fine detail but you can provide us with a summary of the rationale behind this guidance that was provided? this rationale behind this guidance that was provided? 351 rationale behind this guidance that was provided?— was provided? as i said earlier, i was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear — was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in _ was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in my _ was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in my mind, - was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in my mind, as . was provided? as i said earlier, i i was very clear in my mind, as were the other— was very clear in my mind, as were the other chiefs i was working with, that we _ the other chiefs i was working with, that we had — the other chiefs i was working with, that we had to police the pandemic in a way— that we had to police the pandemic in a way that was consistent with our policing style, the policing style _ our policing style, the policing style is— our policing style, the policing style is a — our policing style, the policing style is a consensual policing style. — style is a consensual policing style, and we knew that we were going _ style, and we knew that we were going to — style, and we knew that we were going to be going into territory that was— going to be going into territory that was highly unusual, and the kind of— that was highly unusual, and the kind of restrictions that would be placed _ kind of restrictions that would be placed on— kind of restrictions that would be placed on people's liberty and movement were incredibly severe. and the reason _ movement were incredibly severe. and the reason for the four e's was that the reason for the four e's was that the approach was very much about, this is— the approach was very much about, this is about, how do you most effectively achieved compliance with the regulation and therefore protect people? _ the regulation and therefore protect people? engaging is entirely what we do policing, it is about talking to people — do policing, it is about talking to people it — do policing, it is about talking to people. it was about explanation. we would _ people. it was about explanation. we would all. _ people. it was about explanation. we would all. i_ people. it was about explanation. we would all, i am sure, except that at various— would all, i am sure, except that at various stages throughout the process— various stages throughout the process there was a lack of clarity about _ process there was a lack of clarity about precisely what individual regulations meant. in some sense there _ regulations meant. in some sense there would always be a degree of that but— there would always be a degree of that but often it was quite difficult. we saw the police officers _ difficult. we saw the police officers as an opportunity to provide _ officers as an opportunity to provide that explanation to people about— provide that explanation to people about the rules, if they were unclear _ about the rules, if they were unclear. then, really importantly, encouraging them to comply. and this is a really— encouraging them to comply. and this is a really important point from the policing _ is a really important point from the policing perspective. that was the object _ policing perspective. that was the object of — policing perspective. that was the object of the exercise. it was not to take _ object of the exercise. it was not to take some action against a person. — to take some action against a person. it _ to take some action against a person, it was to get the person to comply— person, it was to get the person to comply with the regulation so the encourage base was there and then only lastly. — encourage base was there and then only lastly, as you'll see in all of the literature as a last resort if the literature as a last resort if the person refuses to comply, then we would _ the person refuses to comply, then we would move to an enforcement stage _ we would move to an enforcement stage and — we would move to an enforcement stage. and this was the piece of guidance — stage. and this was the piece of guidance that we put out and remain throughout, and was really important because _ throughout, and was really important because we _ throughout, and was really important because we always took it back to that being — because we always took it back to that being the point. and it is another, _ that being the point. and it is another, i_ that being the point. and it is another, i think, that being the point. and it is another, ithink, important point for the _ another, ithink, important point for the inquiry to understand is, when _ for the inquiry to understand is, when people talk about the level of enforcement, they tend to go directly— enforcement, they tend to go directly to you how many fixed penalty — directly to you how many fixed penalty tickets were issued. and there