this programme continues on bbc one. good evening. welcome to our weeknight newsnight extravaganza of interviews and intoxicating insight. here in the studio, a critical friend of the conservative party, the commentator tim montgomery, the former leader of the scottish labour party, kezia dugdale, and the uber—pollster, luke tryl, the uk director of more in common. first, that debate in nottingham, only the second time sunak and starmer have shared a stage in the last five weeks. we'll show some of the most interesting bits, but was this the moment of the debate? interesting bits, but was this mr sunak, i think you made a fair job of being chancellor. but you're a pretty mediocre prime minister. sir keir, i think that that your strings are being pulled by very senior members of the labour party. are you two really the best we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country? applause. there was just that moment, wasn't there kind of a "whoa". your reaction to the debate? you introduced _ reaction to the debate? you introduced me _ reaction to the debate? you introduced me as _ reaction to the debate? you introduced me as a - reaction to the debate? wm. introduced me as a critical friend of the prime minister. the last time i sat here was when he was absent. from the d—day anniversary. i from the d—day anniversary. i probably made the strongest criticism i've made of him but tonight i thought the prime minister was very good. sometimes i wondered if the life has gone out of him in the campaign. but plenty of activists will be thinking, where has he been until now? the hope is that in eight or nine days... eight da s of. that in eight or nine days... eight days of- can _ that in eight or nine days... eight days of- can he — that in eight or nine days... eight days of. can he close _ that in eight or nine days... eight days of. can he close well? - that in eight or nine days... eight days of. can he close well? thatl that in eight or nine days... eight. days of. can he close well? that was a sirited days of. can he close well? that was a spirited performance _ days of. can he close well? that was a spirited performance and - days of. can he close well? that was a spirited performance and starmerl a spirited performance and starmer didn't have many answers to the questions he posed.— didn't have many answers to the questions he posed. kezia, what did ou think? questions he posed. kezia, what did you think? the _ questions he posed. kezia, what did you think? the atmosphere - questions he posed. kezia, what did you think? the atmosphere was - questions he posed. kezia, what did| you think? the atmosphere was very uncomfortable. for you think? the atmosphere was very uncomfortable.— you think? the atmosphere was very uncomfortable. for sure, rishi sunak went into that — uncomfortable. for sure, rishi sunak went into that as _ uncomfortable. for sure, rishi sunak went into that as an _ uncomfortable. for sure, rishi sunak went into that as an insurgent, - uncomfortable. for sure, rishi sunak went into that as an insurgent, with l went into that as an insurgent, with clean _ went into that as an insurgent, with clean lines — went into that as an insurgent, with clean lines he wanted to land, a punchy— clean lines he wanted to land, a punchy performance and keir starmer was acting _ punchy performance and keir starmer was acting like the prime minister with a _ was acting like the prime minister with a rational agenda, he wanted a prospectus— with a rational agenda, he wanted a prospectus for change. he wasn't quite _ prospectus for change. he wasn't quite as— prospectus for change. he wasn't quite as agile and relatable. that's because _ quite as agile and relatable. that's because he has a sense of purpose about _ because he has a sense of purpose about what — because he has a sense of purpose about what he wants to do and he knows _ about what he wants to do and he knows he's — about what he wants to do and he knows he's close to power. also knows he's close to power. also because he _ knows he's close to power. also because he can't _ knows he's close to power. also because he can't react - knows he's close to power. also because he can't react that - knows he's close to power. i"r because he can't react that quickly? there was a certain hesitation. but does he need to be able to do that? they are _ does he need to be able to do that? they are characteristics we want or do we _ they are characteristics we want or do we want — they are characteristics we want or do we want a serious person who is prepared _ do we want a serious person who is prepared to — do we want a serious person who is prepared to leave the country through— prepared to leave the country through a vast period of change? what _ through a vast period of change? what did — through a vast period of change? what did you think, luke? that auestion what did you think, luke? that question who — what did you think, luke? that question who asked _ what did you think, luke? that question who asked a question of the candidates, _ question who asked a question of the candidates, whether— question who asked a question of the candidates, whether that's _ question who asked a question of the candidates, whether that's the - question who asked a question of the candidates, whether that's the best l candidates, whether that's the best we've _ candidates, whether that's the best we've got, — candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he— candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he spoke _ candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he spoke to _ candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he spoke to a _ candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he spoke to a lot- candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he spoke to a lot of- candidates, whether that's the best we've got, he spoke to a lot of thel we've got, he spoke to a lot of the people _ we've got, he spoke to a lot of the people we — we've got, he spoke to a lot of the people we speak— we've got, he spoke to a lot of the people we speak to _ we've got, he spoke to a lot of the people we speak to in— we've got, he spoke to a lot of the people we speak to in focus - we've got, he spoke to a lot of thel people we speak to in focus groups i’ilht people we speak to in focus groups right around — people we speak to in focus groups right around the _ people we speak to in focus groups right around the country, _ people we speak to in focus groups right around the country, their- right around the country, their sense — right around the country, their sense of— right around the country, their sense of cynicism _ right around the country, their sense of cynicism and - right around the country, their sense of cynicism and apathy. right around the country, their. sense of cynicism and apathy that actually _ sense of cynicism and apathy that actually know _ sense of cynicism and apathy that actually know politicians - sense of cynicism and apathy that actually know politicians are - sense of cynicism and apathy that actually know politicians are up i sense of cynicism and apathy thatj actually know politicians are up to the job _ actually know politicians are up to the job it — actually know politicians are up to theiob it is— actually know politicians are up to the job. it is true _ actually know politicians are up to the job. it is true that— actually know politicians are up to the job. it is true that keir- the job. it is true that keir starmer's _ the job. it is true that keir starmer's approvals- the job. it is true that keir starmer's approvals have i the job. it is true that keir- starmer's approvals have gone up during _ starmer's approvals have gone up during the — starmer's approvals have gone up during the campaign— starmer's approvals have gone up during the campaign but- starmer's approvals have gone up during the campaign but it's - starmer's approvals have gone up during the campaign but it's alsol during the campaign but it's also fair to— during the campaign but it's also fair to show— during the campaign but it's also fair to show that _ during the campaign but it's also fair to show that neither- during the campaign but it's also fair to show that neither of- during the campaign but it's also fair to show that neither of them j fair to show that neither of them are locked — fair to show that neither of them are locked by— fair to show that neither of them are locked by the _ fair to show that neither of them are locked by the public. - fair to show that neither of them are locked by the public. lots i fair to show that neither of them are locked by the public. lots of| are locked by the public. lots of people — are locked by the public. lots of people were _ are locked by the public. lots of people were nodding _ are locked by the public. lots of people were nodding at - are locked by the public. lots of people were nodding at home . are locked by the public. lots of. people were nodding at home when are locked by the public. lots of- people were nodding at home when he asked _ people were nodding at home when he asked that _ people were nodding at home when he asked that question _ people were nodding at home when he asked that question —— _ people were nodding at home when he asked that question —— neither- people were nodding at home when he asked that question —— neither of- asked that question —— neither of them _ asked that question —— neither of them are — asked that question —— neither of them are loved _ asked that question —— neither of them are loved by— asked that question —— neither of them are loved by the _ asked that question —— neither of them are loved by the public. - the debate ended just over an hour ago and the spin room is abuzz. later, we'll be speaking to two politicans there — labour's wes streeting and the tories victoria atkins. first, nickjoins us. welcome to the sweltering spin room here at nottingham trent university, a short distance away from what was really a very scrappy debate. it's interesting, what tim, the critical friend, sa because in a sense rishi sunak set the terms of the debate. he would be asked a question and he would pivot to an area where he would pivot to an area where he would say that labour is being untrustworthy. when keir starmer spoke he interrupted him, being a bit of a bulldozer and then we'd have to refrain, the rishi sunak refrain of the evening, don't surrender to labour on tax, don't surrender to labour on tax, don't surrender to labour on tax, don't surrender to labour on immigration. surrender is quite a strong word to use in a political context but this didn't feel to me like some sort of grand one nation message from a conservative prime minister to the nation. this felt like a core vote strategy, trying to convey natural tory voters who don't know, to come out and vote and to persuade people who are currently heading in the direction of nigel farage, to head backin direction of nigel farage, to head back in the direction of the conservative party. i bumped into some of the prime minister's team afterwards and i have to say that they looked rather bullish. keir starmer, you can tell that he basically loathes this kind of encounter. at one point he said to the prime minister, if you listen to people in the audience and across the country, more often, ie, don't interrupt me, you might not be so out of touch. picking up on what kezia said, they thought the prime minister from the kezia said, they thought the prime ministerfrom the prime minister was one of desperation. they would say that the more prime ministerial of the two was keir starmer. what did people think? an immediate poll said 50% keir starmer won a 50% said rishi sunak won. let's have a taste of some of the exchanges. the number of people currently out of work _ the number of people currently out of work on — the number of people currently out of work on ill health and disability benefits— of work on ill health and disability benefits is too high. they don't think— benefits is too high. they don't think you — benefits is too high. they don't think you can save a single penny in the growing — think you can save a single penny in the growing welfare bill. that's what _ the growing welfare bill. that's what the — the growing welfare bill. that's what the numbers show. you would ti . hten what the numbers show. you would tiuhten u- what the numbers show. you would tighten up the _ what the numbers show. you would tighten up the system? _ what the numbers show. you would tighten up the system? high - what the numbers show. you would | tighten up the system? high welfare and tax is what _ tighten up the system? high welfare and tax is what you _ tighten up the system? high welfare and tax is what you get _ tighten up the system? high welfare and tax is what you get with - tighten up the system? high welfare and tax is what you get with keir - and tax is what you get with keir starmer — and tax is what you get with keir starmer. we and tax is what you get with keir starmer. ~ ., ., ., . ,, , starmer. we have to tackle these terrible waiting _ starmer. we have to tackle these terrible waiting lists _ starmer. we have to tackle these terrible waiting lists because - terrible waiting lists because nearly 8 million people are on waiting list. it isn't their fault that they can't get back into work, it is the fault of the government that's put us in this terrible position. that's put us in this terrible position-— that's put us in this terrible osition. ~ ., , ., position. what is wrong, if you believe it _ position. what is wrong, if you believe it is _ position. what is wrong, if you believe it is wrong, _ position. what is wrong, if you believe it is wrong, with - position. what is wrong, if you believe it is wrong, with what l position. what is wrong, if you - believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak— believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak is— believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak is saying. _ believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak is saying, that— believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak is saying, that if— believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak is saying, that if someone . believe it is wrong, with what rishi sunak is saying, that if someone is offered _ sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a _ sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a job — sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a job and _ sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a job and they _ sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a job and they can - sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a job and they can do - sunak is saying, that if someone is offered a job and they can do it - sunak is saying, that if someone is| offered a job and they can do it and they turn— offered a job and they can do it and they turn it — offered a job and they can do it and they turn it down, _ offered a job and they can do it and they turn it down, that's _ offered a job and they can do it and they turn it down, that's wrong? i they turn it down, that's wrong? there's— they turn it down, that's wrong? there's nothing _ they turn it down, that's wrong? there's nothing wrong _ they turn it down, that's wrong? there's nothing wrong with - they turn it down, that's wrong? j there's nothing wrong with that. they turn it down, that's wrong? - there's nothing wrong with that. but ou are there's nothing wrong with that. but you are posted when i announced it. you literaiiy— you are posted when i announced it. you literally opposed it. if you are posted when i announced it. you literally opposed it.— you literally opposed it. if you listen to people _ you literally opposed it. if you listen to people in _ you literally opposed it. if you listen to people in the - you literally opposed it. if you | listen to people in the audience you literally opposed it. if you - listen to people in the audience and across the country more often you may not be quite so out of touch. applause the rwanda plan is a deterrent, you 'ust the rwanda plan is a deterrent, you just have _ the rwanda plan is a deterrent, you just have to— the rwanda plan is a deterrent, you just have to listen to what the illegal— just have to listen to what the illegal migrants themselves are sayinq — illegal migrants themselves are saying. and oftenjust said, most of us are _ saying. and oftenjust said, most of us are in— saying. and oftenjust said, most of us are in france because of the fear we have _ us are in france because of the fear we have about rwanda, and another said i_ we have about rwanda, and another said i won't— we have about rwanda, and another said i won't cross the channel until the plan _ said i won't cross the channel until the plan is — said i won't cross the channel until the plan is destroyed. if labour win they will— the plan is destroyed. if labour win they will need a bigger boat. it would take literally 300 years to get all of the people who are here unlawfully to rwanda. if get all of the people who are here unlawfully to rwanda.— unlawfully to rwanda. if elected, what would _ unlawfully to rwanda. if elected, what would you _ unlawfully to rwanda. if elected, what would you do? _ unlawfully to rwanda. if elected, what would you do? what - unlawfully to rwanda. if elected, what would you do? what would | unlawfully to rwanda. if elected, . what would you do? what would you do? at the moment _ what would you do? what would you do? at the moment they _ what would you do? what would you do? at the moment they aren't - what would you do? what would you | do? at the moment they aren't being rocessed, do? at the moment they aren't being processed. they _ do? at the moment they aren't being processed, they are _ do? at the moment they aren't being processed, they are sitting _ do? at the moment they aren't being processed, they are sitting in - processed, they are sitting in hotels that you are paying for. let's begin with the issue of migration. _ well, joining us from the spin room is health secretary victoria atkins and shadow health secretary wes streeting. thank you both forjoining us. wes streeting, on the question of migration and small boats, that question again from rishi sunak, what is your deterrent? because keir starmer can take whatever he said, 300 years, he said, but actually we don't know from labour what the plan is. . don't know from labour what the plan is. , , ., ., , , is. yes, you do. firstly, we will smash the _ is. yes, you do. firstly, we will smash the criminal _ is. yes, you do. firstly, we will smash the criminal gangs - is. yes, you do. firstly, we willj smash the criminal gangs using is. yes, you do. firstly, we will. smash the criminal gangs using the same tools, techniques, powers that be currently use to tackle terrorist cells. that would be a far more effective way of dealing with the people smugglers who are exploiting people smugglers who are exploiting people and shipping them over the channel than a gimmick which the prime minister has so little confidence in that he called a general election before the first plane had even taken off. even if it works full throttle it will take a fraction of those people who come overin fraction of those people who come over in small boats and they are coming in record numbers under rishi sunak. on net migration overall, the way to reduce our country's reliance on overseas labour is to make sure we invest in the talent of our own people. that's a much more effective plan than the failure under the conservatives.— plan than the failure under the conservatives. one question you could be asked _ conservatives. one question you could be asked is _ conservatives. one question you could be asked is while - conservatives. one question you could be