to take away from all of this, what i think is the one thing, well, here it is. rudy giuliani. i cannot get this story out of my mind. that's why i'm going to focus on it right now. do you realize that someone that was the former district attorney for the southern district of new york, a very familiar prosecutor, is refusing to stop defaming and lying about election workers? election workers who have been proven, proven to have done absolutely nothing wrong. in fact, the federal judge who is overseeing that case has already ruled that rudy is spreading false information about ruby freeman and shea moss. he is falsely claiming this that they were passing around usb drives as, quote, they were vials of heroin or cocaine. interesting use of that description and analogy, is it not, when in fact it wasn't a usb drive. remember, it was a ginger mint being passed between mother and daughter. now it's a matter of how much the man who was once known as america's mayor will have to pay for defaming them, not whether he did, but how much he has to pay for having done it, the damages portion of it. but even knowing that he is in court today, this week, in the midst of a trial on that very issue, it's not stopping him. i mean, i remind you, he was the former u.s. attorney. he should know better than this. >> do you regret what you did to -- >> of course i don't regret. i told the truth. they were engaged in changing votes. >> there is no proof of that. >> oh, you're damn right there is. stay tuned. >> how about you just tell us right now. because stay tuned to me means you're trying to find a reason to reverse engineer. tell me right now what the evidence is, or maybe last month tell us, or the month before that, or at any point in time where you had opportunity to demonstrate there was any evidence whatsoever. i mean, i deal with the court of law. he knows that quite well. i'm not staying tuned unless i want to hear more about the damages portion of the trial. and there are very real world consequences to all of this. i mean, it wasn't just a theoretical thing whether ruby freeman or shea moss would somehow have been attacked by people verbally, they wouldn't have felt in fear of their lives or their livelihood. just listen to this example of threatening voice mails left for ruby freeman and shaye moss. they were actually played in court today. they were emails full of obscene and racist threats. i'm going play some for you. but i'm going warn you, not only are they disturbing, they were directed at people who just community as election workers. >> you're going to jail, ruby. you're going to get locked up, ruby. that's election fraud, ruby. what was on the usb drive, ruby? you're all going to [ bleep ] jail, you piece of [ bleep ] [ bleep ]. >> hey, this is shaye. i hope you like jail, because that's where you're going, on your way to hell. >> and based on what were these taunts relayed? i mean, imagine if you picked up your phone and there was a message like that on it. and frankly, some of the other ones are so riddled with obscenities, so riddled with vicious racial slurs, we have to actually beep out most of them, making it entirely incomprehensible. today we actually heard from shaye moss herself, and she said that her worst fear, and imagine this, after being an election worker, after having what was said about her and the defamatory statements that were made, that she is now afraid that her son would find out that her mother would be maybe hanging from a tree, or getting the news at school that his mother had been killed. can you imagine what that was feeling like and what it still does? she had to tell him that racism is real and that she felt like someone like shaye moss, and i hope that she hears this, because nothing that you have done warranted that behavior. i haven't planned to stay tuned, nor shall we all about some figment of one's imagination that was not presented in a court of law in a ruling already issued. telling the truth, setting up powerful people to protect your son and do what's right for your country and help democracy by actually being an election worker, what were you supposed to do? and to think about how personal the attacks have felt, what it's felt like to you to now question your own ability and perception of yourself as a mother. this is where we are. and the next election day is 328 days away. and guess what? stay tuned for this. you're going to need election workers to protect our fair and free and fair elections. but who would raise their hand to do this kind of job after just an example like this, what happened to shaye moss or ruby freeman? the big question is why. why won't rudy giuliani stop the behavior? what's behind it? that's what's got my mind spinning tonight. through all the different news, this is where i'm focused, thinking about what on earth is the motivation. well, let me ask ken freedman, because he was the campaign spokesperson back in 1993 during rudy giuliani's run for new york mayor. he is also a consulting producer for the cnn original series "giuliani: what happened to america's mayor?" i'm glad that you're here. i've really been racking my brain, thinking about just the idea of stepping on the rake time and time again, knowing you already had a defamation finding. i mean, you heard what shaye moss had to say today. >> yeah. >> tell me, why do you think rudy giuliani is doubling down now? >> i think he's taken a page out of trump's playbook. you know, trump is defiant. he has been trashing the state attorney general letitia james after every court session, and rudy is doing the same. he's given to excess, that's for sure. and you know, i wrote a column about him in the october 9th, 2019 where i advised him to stay away from trump, to stay away from fruman and parnas, and instead he returned to the ukraine the next day. he doubles down, as you said earlier. if you told him he made a bad hire, he would give that person a raise and a promotion. so if you want him not to do something, you tell him the opposite. >> so reverse psychology would have worked. maybe telling him go ahead and defame them. then that would have maybe had him stop it? here is what i'm asking, though. walk me through that psychology. because what is it -- what's at the core for him? is it that he's trying to emulate the courthouse steps conversation to trump, as you say? or is it something about it, is it an ego that says you can't tell me what to do, i'll do whatever i want? is that where it's coming from? or something else. is he trying to please, or what? >> you alluded to it earlier. no one knows the law as well as he does. and, you know, i spent -- we spent two years researching the documentary on rudy. and i knew a lot about him already. but i learned a lot mother, including the fact he was best of class in the u.s. attorneys office. he was number three in the justice department at the age of 38. and he was a very effective first-term mayor. you may not like his bedside manner, but he really turned the city around. he was transformative. and he did it through sheer force of will. and he is used to willing people to do his bidding, the same way trump is. and it's not working anymore. so he's just flailing around, you know, desperately trying to, you know, stay out of jail, frankly. i've said on cnn and elsewhere that his only goals should be to die a free man. and i think he and trump -- yeah, if their lawyers are iteming them anything other than that, they're not giving them good counsel. and i think he is banking on trump becoming president again. not that he could pardon him in a state case, but i think the two of them are convinced that trump is going to become president and they're going to put the band back together again. >> well, i don't know if that needs to be a cover band and somebody else pretending to be or what, but let me ask you. you mentioned the bank. this is a damages case. this is not just a run of the mill finding of whether or not somebody has actually done what they are alleged to have done. this is also about what it's going to cost them. >> right. >> and we're talking about millions of dollars at stake here. and word on perhaps the manhattan streets is that he doesn't visit. is that part of the motivation? what is the impact of him not having the funds you think on his behavior? >> well, he is desperately lashing out. he doesn't have the money. everybody knows that. but they're never going to collect the money, the same way the sandy hook families are not going collect millions and millions of dollars from alex jones, in spite of his bankruptcy. so i think he knows that he's not going to -- he's not going to live to pay out millions and millions of dollars. he can't even afford a new car, frankly. i know that. that's how low on funds he is. so it's a question of collecting, right, laura? it's not just a number. you've had to actually collect the money. the damage. i don't see that. he doesn't have tens of millions of dollars. even if he sells his apartment. >> well, i think that's probably in the cards. but that's why i wonder about the doubling down. when one does not believe that jail is in the immediate future and that someone can't collect on the payment, then maybe being defiant is his way of punching out. you know, i'm just to really understand you and your relationship with him. i mean, this is somebody -- he married you and your wife. you carry around a picture of giuliani for years in that picture with you and your wife for years. >> yes. >> and here you are now, very vocal about who he is today. why do you feel it's so important to speak out? >> i feel an obligation, because i did know him when he was a terrific mayor, and i've seen the devolution of him over the years. and i feel it's my obligation, frankly, to share what i know and to try to, you know, prevent democracy from being overturned. that's -- that was a big part of our documentary. if you recall january 6th, he said "let's have trial by combat." and that can only mean one thing. let's overthrow the government, and let's take the capitol. and that's exactly what happened. you know, words matter. he should know that. frank luntz wrote a book called "words matter." and rudy doesn't seem to understand that, or doesn't seem to care about the effect of his words and his behavior. >> well, that's the crux of this particular case, right, the words. the idea of making statements that defame someone, that are false, that diminish someone's reputation or standing in a community. he has already been found to be liable for having done that. now it's about the damages, and even now he says he doesn't regret a thing. ken freedman, this is a fascinating, at least psychological study for a lot of reasons. thank you so much. >> you're welcome so much. thanks for having me. >> and of course i'm not going forget the fact that while we're talking about rudy giuliani, the focus should be on the people that he was doing that to, and what they're going through tonight and yesterday and every day since it happened apparently. also, republicans, they are on the verge of taking the next steps in their impeachment inquiry into president biden, but here is a little thing that maybe no one's really talking to you about, yet could it backfire on them? that's what everyone is talk about tomorrow, i bet you. we'll cover it right here next. all right. so time is of the essence, and voters are already making up their mind. look, the first caucuses are just weeks away. ron desantis is finally apparently seizing the opportunity to take the shots at donald trump that many wondered why he hadn't taken before, because he was, of course, trying to become the front-runner. well, here he was at cnn's town hall tonight. >> i think the first three years of the trump administration, the economy is better than it has been, but that last year with covid i think was mishandled dramatically. i went to the rallies with donald trump. he said he was going to build the wall and have mexico pay for it, and that didn't happen. i think, though, one thing in this race that i think is important to point out is donald trump flip-flopping on the right to life. >> hmm. i wonder where this person was maybe a couple of months ago. let's talk about it with our two esteemed guest joe walsh and karen finney, who was a senior spokesperson for hillary clinton's presidential campaign in 2016. seriously, people have been wondering about not just him, but all of the candidates as to why they were not addressing in a very pointed and direct way the faults of donald trump. one would assume you would in an election year. why do you think it's happening now, karen? >> well, i think he recognizes time is running out, and this was an opportunity to reintroduce, the reintroduction of ron desantis 2.0 with his cowboy boots and all, right, and it was an opportunity. >> maybe he watches "yellowstone" like myself. that's fine. i'm not going to judge him. go ahead. >> as you know, as a tall woman, i've dated a man who wear cowboy boots, and it only means one thing. that's okay. i think he recognized it's an opportunity. the question is, can he close, what is it, 40 point gap? and i think paul begala earlier this evening made the point that it's a 70-point swing from where desantis was a year ago. so he is clearly trying to show a kinder, gentler more empathetic, quote, unquote more human as we would say, particularly on abortion. it was really interesting how he didn't quite take the bait on answering the question that jake asked him about the situation in texas where the woman has just had to leave the state to have an abortion. >> 31 years old. mother of two. has a fatal diagnosis for a genetic disorder for a 20-week-old fetus, and now had to leave the state for an emergency abortion. >> he used it both as an opportunity to attack trump for flip-flopping, but also to try to, again, seem more compassionate. it was interesting. he said the legislature had put -- did you notice the legislature had put forward this legislation that had a bunch of different exceptions, and that he went ahead and signed it, when in the past, he was -- i did and it was about me. and there were some other places where he kind embellished let's say the facts. >> even when it happened, when he signed it, he had an event that night, and he did not address it fully at all. >> it is an issue republicans do not want to talk about at all. laura, it's too late. he got into the race like haley got into the race months ago, not to beat donald trump. they decided from the get-go we're not going beat him. we can't beat him. we're just going to wait to see if we can be the alternative if something happens to trump. something didn't happen to trump. he has increased his lead in iowa. it's just too late. >> well, you know, he is still going to go if it's too late, he would go against president joe biden in a rematch. and you've got republicans trying to now secure an impeachment inquiry against him. we are hearing about the reverse engineering. we haven't heard about what the high crime misdemeanor is. silly me, i thought one had to come first. chicken, egg, which one comes first? apparently now it's the inquiry itself. is that going backfire? >> yes, yes. short answer. >> okay. and the will. why? >> this is what the base wants. this is what trump demands. and truthfully, joe biden would love this. >> you think he would love it, really? >> oh, gosh, yes, politically the will be anathema to most of the american people. as you said, there is no reason for this. and most americans don't know the difference 2001 the beginning and impeachment inquiry. look, they're beginning an impeachment of joe biden. that's there is no reason for that. that is going to backfire. >> what do you think? >> i completely agree. number one, it's going to be particularly bad for republicans in those 18 districts where joe biden won because their right-wing colleagues have been trying to convince them hey, you're just going to be voting to agree that we should have an inquiry. we're not really voting for impeachment. guess what? they're all going to face "you voted to impeach joe biden" in districts that are very conservative. that are going to say what did you do for me. they're going to go home at the end of this week having not really finished their work, but they had time to vote to impeach. an impeachment inquiry for joe biden. >> laura, and the speaker was asked today what do yaw want your biggest accomplishment these two years to be. he said "increase our majority." there was no legislation. there was no policy. we want to increase our majority. that's what they're trying to do. >> with threw is a big part of the base that suggest democrats did this very thing to trump, and that he rebounded effe effectively because they thought there was no reason to impeach him. certainly not the same level of reverse engineering by far, but that's the concern about how this might play both ways. do you see that? >> well, i see something slightly different, which is remember all of the moderate republicans and republicans like joe walsh who migrated away from donald trump towards joe biden or just to not vote. >> you could argue that trump did nothing and then there was an impeachment. we could debate about how serious it was. this is an example, laura, where they're going to impeach and then try to find out if biden did something. >> reverse engineering. not one of us -- you have a b.a.? >> no. >> what do you have, bs, what do you have? engineers? >> not an engineer. >> that's the point i'm trying to make. we got you. karen, joe, thank you so much. the point was we're not engineers. tomorrow be sure to check out the cnn town hall with vivek ramaswamy in iowa. abby phillip. chris sununu just endorsed her. that's at noon on "inside politics." ukrainian president zelenskyy is coming back into washington. in fact, he came today. but this time it was a very different washington, d.c. he did not get the warmest rece reception. so what's changed since the louisiana time he came to make the case for aid in his fight against russia? some are obvious. some not so. we'll dive in next. first time i connected with kim, she told me that her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. i'm here to thank you. putin is banking on the united states failing to deliver for ukraine. we must, we must, we must prove him wrong. >> president biden trying to make the case to skeptical republicans to push forward more military, more economic aid to ukraine. his plea coming during ukrainian president's third visit to washington, d.c. since the war, and he came with his own sales pitch. the difference this time? well, an increasing number of americans are no longer interested in buying in. you see this purple line? that shows steady growth and how many americans say the united states is paying too much. and it may not be that surprising when you lock at the actual map of ukraine. the yellow shows ukraine's gains in the recent counteroffensive, and you perhaps would not be wrong in asking is that it? but we'd be wrong to think of that myopically. the small gains are raising big yeses, like how much an impact giving more aid would actually have. republicans in congress are holding up aid package and timing it to increased security at the southern border. regardless what you believe, it's about terminating america's role in what's happening across the world and what we do or don't do doesn't just imp