, the better it is for the defense and so, donald trump and todd blanche were nearly giddy that the jury was going to go home for a second day. without reaching a verdict. >> donald trump that he was going home without a verdict today. he just had about 15 minutes to kill, and what we saw was a donald trump at that defense table we've never seen before. he was joking, laughing, smiling with todd blanche. they were chatting and laughing almost incessantly. todd blanche laughing so hard at one point doubling over so that his four head almost touch the table in front of him. they thought they were going home today without a verdict. it was almost a jubilant, giddy donald trump but that changed very quickly when the judge merchan came back to inform the parties that the jury had reached verdict. >> the jury had a verdict after only nine hours of deliberation, which is not a long deliberation for a 34 count indictment and so donald trump watched his jury under the courtroom for what would be the final times. the jury walked by him, as they always did, at high speed, never looking at him, never looking at anyone else, just filing straight ahead, focused on the job they took an oath to do. there is no suspense. like a jury verdict. nothing like it. we have taken the suspense out of so much of modern life. we have polls telling us is going to win elections. we have computers tracking exactly where hurricanes are going to go. we can know the gender of our babies before they are born. there are websites devoted to predicting the chances of who is going to win which oscar. as prediction has become easier, suspense has become much more rare. the entire history of the dramatic arts from shakespeare to spielberg, no dramatist has been able to deliver to an audience the force of the impact the jury verdict has in the room as it hits just when the suspense feels unbearable. i have seen lives crushed in an instant by a jury verdict. i have seen people sent off to the electric chair by one word, guilty. and i have seen lives saved by a jury verdict. winning the lottery has nothing on the words not guilty for a criminal defendant. every announcement of every jury verdict leaves everyone in the courtroom dizzy, no matter which verdict they were hoping for. it is hard to trust your ears when you hear that verdict. did he really say what i thought he said? that is what speeds through the minds of everyone who has just heard that verdict. the world slows down and you experience the passage of time in thousandths of a second, so if there is another count of the indictment, it always seems like the announcement of a second verdict comes a very long time after the first verdict and if both of those verdicts are the same, only then do you begin to believe your ears. that is when you hear the cry. that is when you hear the mothers crying for their sons who have just been convicted. i was a teenager when i heard a wife crying for her husband who had just been convicted of murder. i had many conversations with her during that trial. i can't remember the sound of her voice, but i will never forget the sound of her crying when she heard that verdict. and, if there is a third verdict , only then does your mood light and, if it is the verdict you wanted to hear. but, if it is the verdict you don't want to hear, and if you are the defendant, by the third verdict, you are in the darkest place you have ever been in your life. your eyes may be open but you cannot see, cannot feel, cannot understand what is happening to you and you begin to feel the greatest fear you have ever felt in your life about what is going to happen to you. for two full minutes yesterday, the worst two minutes of donald trump's life, donald trump listened to his jury verdict delivered by the foreperson of the jury, who moved to this country from ireland and still has an irish accent that was last heard in the courtroom when he was answering questions as a prospective juror six weeks ago. there were no screams of anguish, as you sometimes here at jury verdicts. no one cried. the current mrs. trump was not there. eric trump was the only family member present, and if he has feelings for his father, they once again went unexpressed. the only thing defendant donald j. trump heard in the courtroom when the torturous suspense finally broke was this. the clerk. how say you to the first count of the indictment charging donald j. trump with the crime of falsifying business records in the first degree, don't guilty or not guilty? juror number one, guilty. >> how say you to count two? >> guilty. >> how say you to count for, guilty. how say you to count four, guilty. how say you to count five, guilty. how say you to count six, guilty. how say you to count seven, guilty. how say you to county? guilty. how say you to count nine? guilty. how say you to count 10? guilty. how say you to count 11? guilty. >> how say you to count 12? guilty. i'll say to count 13? guilty. how say you to count 14? guilty. how say you to count 14, 15, 16, guilty. how say you to count 17, guilty. how say you to count 19, guilty. how say you to count 20? guilty. how say you to count 21? guilty. how say you to count 22? guilty. how say you to count 23? guilty. how say you to count 24? guilty. how say you to count 25? guilty. how say you to count 26? guilty. i'll see you to count 27? guilty. >> how say you to count 28? guilty. how say you to count 29? guilty. how say you to count 30? guilty. how say you to count 31? guilty. how say you to count 32? guilty. how say you to count 33? guilty and how say you to count 34? guilty. the clerk, please be seated. 34 times. 34 times. just half an hour earlier, donald trump was laughing with his lawyer, laughing as he had never left before, and then he had to listen to the word he hoped he would never hear 34 times. he had to listen to that word 34 times because 12 people randomly chosen from the 1.6 million people living on the island of manhattan raise their right hand and answered yes to this question. do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will try the case of the people of the state of new york against donald j. trump in a fair and impartial manner and to the best of your ability render a true verdict according to the law and evidence? i watched her that jury paying much more attention to every word of testimony then donald trump did. i watched that jury pay much more attention to every word the lawyers on both sides said, then donald trump did. i watched that jury never close their eyes in the courtroom the way donald trump did for hours on end. i watched that jury respect what was happening in that room more, much more, then donald trump ever could. >> the only voice that matters is the voice of the jury and the jury has spoken. >> joining our discussion now, adam and lisa. there -- they were both in the courtroom when the trump verdict was announced. also, andrew weissmann, former chief of the criminal division of new york. lisa, i want to take you back to that moment and to the final breaking of that suspense and hearing that first guilty does not mean that you're going to hear 33 more guilty's. you have to patiently wait as those verdicts unfold when it is multiple counts. take us back to those moments when you heard the first guilty. >> i can't even begin to describe the shock that i was feeling and lawrence, your right to say that the first guilty doesn't mean you'll get 33 others, the folks at this table like you know a lot more about this case than the general public and one of the things we know is that charge one through four change to the earliest checks written by the donald j. trump trust, not by trump personally. those were checks that were the signatures either of one of his sons with allen weisselberg, there were two checks written in february and those cover counts one through four. when i heard the guilty, on count one, my immediate thought was, this is going to be a clean sleep because there were some folks who thought we could get a mixed verdict here that the jury would blame donald trump for those things on which you can probably find his fingerprints namely, the checks he himself signed. maybe that would also extend to the other business records related to those checks but we did not know, particularly given that tom went straight to distance his client from those other transactions whether they would find fault with him for that so hearing, as you described, the foreperson's distinctive irish accent, the clear, resident guilty on count one was astonishing. adam and i actually were sitting next to each other. i took your place yesterday thanks to adam, and i remember hearing the woman who was sitting on my other side gasp audibly and then all you could hear was pounding of keyboards everywhere. and then i looked up and i saw donald trump's energy, and he, as you noted, he and todd blanche had been having this very brew- bromanticmoment between them and when there was a jury verdict you could see them start to separate a little bit in that moment. trumps body language was pitched straight ahead. there was no more leaning on todd blanche, joking with todd blanche. it was like the parting of the red sea in that moment. >> i want to explain to our audience at the outset why our sitting arrangement looks a little bit different tonight. i have been in boston since the summations, since wednesday morning, involved in some college reunion activities, and andrew weissmann is very grandly occupying what would usually be my chair and not studio, and doing so in a way that makes me feel like it's time for me to get out of the way and let him keep that chair. andrew, this verdict -- you've seen so many verdicts coming in. you know the tension of that moment and as a prosecutor when you are sitting at that table and you hear the first few guilty's coming in and, you probably have a good idea of the rest of what is coming, but prosecutors don't start high- fiving right there in front of the jury. it is one of those moments where even the winners are trying to contain themselves, maybe a little nudge to each other about having won, but it is not some big moment of full expression of what it feels like for a prosecutor. >> well, there is no question, i think, that a season prosecutor would tell you that if you are gleeful upon a verdict, you are in the wrong profession. that is not the right reaction and obviously -- i'm not sure of you when you first started out, you may not have had that but i think there is a lot of pain that is involved in that, obviously with respect to the defendants. they are there because of a choice that they made and responsibility is being accorded to decisions they made as found by a jury, but it still is something that is humbling and sad and especially , though it wasn't as true here, very often, there are family members who didn't do anything who are crying and upset and understandably so. i should say the other part of a verdict that i find always very moving and i found it particularly so here is when the jury is pulled, that is something the defense usually request and that's when the clerk asks each of the jurors after the verdict is read as you were counted, to say whether that is juror number one, is that your verdict? juror number two -- and they each have to affirm that it is the case, if it is. and in this case in addition to sort of making it clear, this is just an average citizen doing it. in this case, to me, it really shamed all of the people who came as sycophants and toadies to donald trump, the members of congress, certain judges or justices who did not take their oaths and aren't taking their oaths of public service as seriously as an average citizen who was sworn in and took their oath of office and stood up, understanding the gravity to the individual, understanding the stark nature of what they were doing, and understanding the potential ramifications and still doing their duty and that to me, although not as dramatic as the verdict itself, is something that brings you back to foundational goals and purpose of the rule of law and how it is founded on the people of the united states. >> adam, i have marveled at the way you do your work in the courtroom because you are present in the courtroom. you are taking everything in. you are taking notes, but you are also live tweeting in the courtroom for so many hundreds of thousands of people, sometimes millions of people out there trying to follow through you, and many others who are live tweeting in that courtroom and so, you are living the experience and transmitting the experience at the same time. i have never had to do that in a courtroom. in a courtroom, i am taking and what is happening and i am taking it into me and i have to have time to think about it before i transmit it to someone else. what was it like for you to be typing that word guilty, hearing it from the foreperson's mouth and then delivering it? >> first i want to thank you, lawrence. those were very kind words. i would say at that moment, i'm going to take even a step back before the pronouncement of the verdict. lisa mentioned a little bit earlier the gasp in the room that she had heard during the pronouncement of the verdict. the biggest gasps that i heard when judge merchan announced we have a verdict . that was by far the loudest and have been in the courtroom all day, and that moment was the first rush of adrenaline. we are witnessing history. we need to bring this out and when you are treating something you want to get it out as quickly as possible. that was a historic moment in and of itself and the way you recited it at the beginning, the pronouncement of the verdict, it is not just that one moment. it's count one. it is a call and response and there was an error of i would just call it surreality, a moment where it was relatively more quiet at that moment than it was when we knew that was happening, and because, as you said in that very thoughtful opening, did we hear that right? can we believe our own ears, and hearing that call and response for 34 times and knowing for certain that american history had forever changed at that moment. >> we are going to squeeze in our first break here. we are going to be back in here what president biden said about this today. we will be right back. today. we will be right back. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. 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day. while i am a paid actor, and this is not a real company, there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. upwork is half the cost of our old recruiter and they have top-tier talent and everything from pr to project management because this is how we work now. a slow network is no network for business. that's why more fro choose comcast business.t and now, we're introducing ultimate speed for business —our fastest plans yet. we're up to 12 times faster than verizon, at&t, and t-mobile. and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds... at no additional cost. it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. don't miss out on our fastest speed plans yet! switch to comcast business and get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. call today! the american principle that no one is above the law was reaffirmed. donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself. it was a state case, not a federal case and it was heard by a jury of 12 citizens, 12 americans, 12 people like you. like millions of americans who served on juries, this jury was chosen the same way every jury in america was chosen. it was a process donald trump's attorney was a part of. the jury heard five weeks of evidence, five weeks. after kelp -- careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict and found donald trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. not only was he given the opportunity, to appeal that decision was just like everyone else has the opportunity. that's how the american system of justice works and it is reckless, it is dangerous, it is irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years. it literally is the cornerstone of america, our justice system. the justice system should be respected and we should never allow anyone to tear it down. it is as simple as that. that is america. that is who we are. that is who we will always be, god willing. >> andrew, listening to that today it makes you realize we barely hear -- rarely hear presidents talking about criminal prosecutions. there are so fuse -- whew that of a rise to the level of presidential participation at any point. that is to say presidents other than donald trump who commented on prosecutions of his own people as they were happening and what the president said today was the most elementary message about american justice. >> yes, and you know, you could replace the word trial with election, and it is the same, which is, you know, losing an election that is you know, if you won it's fair and if you lost, it's rigged, and the same would be true that this trial where the four of us have been night after night talking about how fair this process was before we had any idea what the result is going to be, and that is because all of us understand the elemental, elementary view that this is what the criminal justice system is. it is not about the end result. it is about due process and then respecting our fellow citizens for the result become two. here, you really do have the president saying, i stand for the rule of law and for respecting due process and even the rights of the defendant, even if that defendant is his political adversary, and it is just remarkable we have come to the place were of course the defendant is always going to say it was unfair. i want to do trial. justice wasn't done. that happens all the time. what does not happen all the time is, you know, the entire republican party, or what it has now become, going down that rabbit hole of disrespecting the fundamental process of the rule of law because without that, we don't have a country. that is so foundational to who we are, and it is so frightening -- the frightening part of this was the response people like susan collins, you know, just a knee-jerk reaction without any consideration of the actual proof that the four of us have seen and is in writing and there is a transcript and it's presided over by a respected, experienced judge, so that is the part of this that is so disheartening. >> yes, and i have to say if this trial taking place in the state of maine -- i've seen a couple of trials in the state of maine with the main jury. i suspect the outcome would have been identical and some might have a different view because of where the jury would've been chosen from. i wonder if you see a tactical point in this trial that was the beginning of the road to the outcome we see? was there a critical moment? was there critical decision you look at now and you say oh, that is the decision. that is the move on which this victory for the prosecution was built? >> lawrence, i would describe it is almost like a series of micro decisions, not one of them, but the totality of decisions that they made to surround michael cohen as sort of a deconstructed edifice with all of the scaffolding that he needed to make sure this case succeeded because notwithstanding what todd blanche will say about this case resting entirely on the shoulders of michael cohen, nothing could be further from the truth. if you're asking me which decision was critical, let's start with the beginning one, starting this case with david pecker and multiple days of his testimony. david pecker is still a person who considers donald trump a friend and yet, his testimony may have been more critical than anyone else's and really driving home to the jury that there was a conspiracy here, but that it was executed by unlawful means and ultimately covered up by the falsification of business records caused by donald trump. that all started with david pecker and it just continued, so when i think about is there one moment? no, there is not one moment. there is a series of moments each and every day that was two years in the making with alvin bragg's team thinking about, how do you construct this case in a way that no one can say it is solely because of that guy over there, who is disgruntled and upset because he served time in prison and that guy, the one he used to love, did not, and i think they did that masterfully. >> and adam, district attorney alvin bragg made appearances in the courtroom probably when his schedule allowed, a few times over the course of the trial during various points of testimony including, by the way, some of the most undramatic testimony he happened to be in the courtroom for, but he was there for every minute of the summations by the defense and the prosecution, and i was sitting there imagining alvin bragg a couple of years ago, when he really started staring at this evidence and at the point where he was deciding to go forward, to seek an indictment, go forward to the grand jury in this case, to seek an indictment on these facts, he, no doubt, at that time was envisioning and hearing in his head, with those final arguments would be over these facts in this courtroom, and he was in the courtroom to hear exactly how those arguments played out. >> and, many months before this trial, a lot of people question why did alvin bragg bring this case, and it became clear to those of us who were in the courtroom and saw the evidence that he amassed over the course of his investigation, it is because he was handed a royal straight flush. as we mentioned on this show, as you mentioned, lawrence, it is not very often the prosecutors say these are the smoking gun documents, and he found the smoking gun documents in allen weisselberg's handwriting outlining the scheme, and that document just happened to have been written. those notes happen to of been written on the exact shell company bank statement that was used to pay stormy daniels' lawyer, and there was another smoking gun document on trump organization letterhead, so i think that as to your point, he brought this case with a lot of evidence, and that he did not come for every day of the trial because he has lots of other cases, and it was very notable, if you look at his public statements, he was not talking about this case day in and day out. he was talking about other work his office does every day and i believe either on the day of the verdict or shortly before the verdict, he was talking about a wage theft case. this is someone who is speaking for his office, and not just one case, and his focus and his attention was a testament to the fact that this was his office doing a case that they thought needed to be brought. >> andrew, with your experience in the justice department as a prosecutor, consider for us for a moment what alvin bragg was confronted with when he saw the evidence developed in this case and he had to sit there and make his own decision as the elected district attorney of manhattan with all the responsibility that comes from that. he was in a position to say yes or no in going forward with this prosecution. and, he did not make that decision until he had all the evidence, and in making that decision and looking at all the evidence, he had to be able to satisfactorily predict to himself what those verdicts would be that we heard yesterday when he was making that first decision to go forward. >> you know, when you bring a case, you don't know. i have seen strong cases that are lost and i have seen weaker cases that are won and so you're always taking that risk. obviously you don't go forward unless you think you have a lively prospect that you will will -- win when you are convinced of the guilt of the defendant but i agree completely with what lisa said about many decisions, but i think the key decision here that led today is one that alvin bragg was vilified for, and if you want to know if he is the real deal or not, he is the real deal and the way you know that is because when he was elected in this town and lots of people across the nation were hoping that donald trump would be indicted because they thought it had been far too long that he had escaped responsibility and alvin bragg said, it is not ready, and that, to me, is the decision that led to the result yesterday. you do not bring the case until it is ready, if it ever becomes ready, and he deserves an enormous amount of credit for making that decision. it is the right decision and i don't think, frankly, for alvin bragg, it was a hard one because everything you see about him, is it is not hard when you're just doing your job and doing the right thing. i was struck by the phrase because he said i did my job and i think that is the way he saw it and when the case is ready, he then said we will go forward. >> we are going to squeeze in a quick break here. when we come back, we will hear donald trump agreeing with me that he could not testify because if he testified, he would have committed perjury. donald trump said that today. you will hear him say it in his own words after this break. own wait! no, no, no, no, no. [ gasps ] [ indistinct chatter ] [ sigh ] let's just wait them out. the volkswagen atlas with three rows of seating for seven. everyone wants a ride. [ snoring ] ok, get in. 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they were all people loyal to and aligned with donald trump, so for the people who say this was a witch hunt and it's unfair and it is a sham, these are donald trump's friends and allies and employees who testified. they were not even claimed to have been liked by donald trump and he had a choice to testify and to call witnesses in addition to bob costello and he chose not to. >> so, it is one thing for donald trump to say something as absurd as that. it is something else when donald trump sleep defense lawyer todd blanche goes on cnn , and we're going to show you what he said. you know, he had a tough time in the courtroom because he had that fax. he's hasn't even worse time on television. todd blanche, by the way, has a permanent invitation to come on this program whenever he can to answer questions about this and the other trump cases. let's listen to what he said on cnn. >> why didn't the defense call any of these witnesses? >> well, because we happen to live in america and we don't have the burden of proof and so there is not -- that's not the point. that is a question that is a loaded question that should not be asked of a defense attorney or the defendant. the question we ask the jury that they obviously got past is why the prosecution didn't call those witnesses. as a defense attorney, you don't go into a case saying, i'm going to fill the holes for the prosecution, and keith schiller and some of the other witnesses that were not ultimately called, in our view, should've been called by the prosecution. >> lisa ruben, this is a level of silliness now that is just beyond what you can expect from any serious lawyer. he lost the case. he lost it and he did not call these witnesses and he obviously didn't call these witnesses because he thought they would do damage to his case. >> and he said as much on cnn. i saw that clip earlier today lawrence, in part, because andrew called my attention to it through a tweet in the first thing that struck me was the arrogance of because this is america or because we live in america we don't carry the burden of proof and yes, that is true, they did not have the burden of proof but if they wanted to show the jury the prosecution did not meet its burden, they had any number of means to try and demonstrate that, and there answer was solely bob costello. as for the rest of his statement, he told on himself when he said it's not our job to fill the holes in the prosecution's case. that is a concession that had they called keith schiller or even the convicted killer -- perjure allen weisselberg, that those people would have aided prosecution. saying it's not our job to fill the prosecution's holes was a staggering admission from todd blanche, who i just was gob smacked by seeing that interview. >> you know, adam, he had a tough time in the courtroom and i sympathize with lawyers who have bad facts. i sever ties with lawyers and court rooms who have -- you know, there is just nothing they can get up there with and use. they don't really have ammunition, but to get into this freewheeling discussion on cnn and say that's a question no defense lawyer should ever be asked? are you kidding me? you can't ask a quote defense lawyer whether he should've called more witnesses? >> it did not make sense. lisa said it all with that, so you know. i will say one of the most surprising things with me, going back to the trial, was todd blanche wasting so much of his time and credibility on the patently absurd argument that these were not reimbursements after his own client had said in two sworn statement seen by the jury, and a tweet, that these were reimbursements. he said that even after there were those two smoking gun documents. he wasted so much time and so much credibility with the jury with that. it was a pivot point of both his opening statements and his closing arguments, and the fact that was a pivot point of his defense, i think, may explain the speed with which the jury rejected reasonable doubt. >> you know, andrew, as i think about it, i cannot think of an instance of hearing a criminal defense lawyer after losing a case, after getting hit with a guilty verdict, going into an interview to say there were witnesses that should've been hurt in that courtroom. but, they should've been called by the other side. i've never heard a lawyer in a civil suit say that about a case after the fact, that there were witnesses who should have been heard, and they should've been called by the other side, since everyone knows both sides have the same capacity to call the same witnesses. >> let's just leave it as todd blanche had a tough road actually at the trial. he needs some media training. that obviously is not his forte . i completely agree with lisa, when we were talking before hand, saying that there were additional witnesses that would make your client guilty or is not a particularly good look for a defense counsel. better to talk about the judge's rulings that you think were wrong, legal issues that you're going to appeal, things that are -- could have some credibility and are fair to comment on, and so, you know, i think that was not his finest moment. i also do think that when you compare the incredibly well thought out proof and strategy of the state here, that was just so meticulous, and you could feel it as you saw the state case progress over and over and the buildup to michael cohen, and it was not because he was the key witness. it was that there was so much proof without him and he felt it and knew it because you lived it with the prosecution, and there never was a counter narrative and the key problem, i thought, was not just no counter narrative. there was no discussion in the summation of any of the damning proof that you know that the state was going to come back and highlight. >> lisa ruben, the prosecution who has the burden to basically present this case, which is to say, tell the story -- i have to say, sitting there in the audience section of that courtroom, they presented it like a good movie. i didn't know what was coming next. i never knew who was the next witness. i could not sit there and say this is their next move and then every move made sense. when you sought you go yes, that makes sense. >> that is absolutely true. even when people came in order that we were not necessarily expecting, you know, prosecutors do not always have the luxury of presenting their witnesses exactly how they want to. sometimes witnesses are unavailable on a particular day, you have to get a witness out of order so you can admit evidence you might want to use a somebody else, but they were meticulous, and are planning was well worth it. >> lisa ruben, adam klasfeld, andrew weissmann, i can never thank you enough for gathering together so frequently to guide me and this audience through this important trial . thank you very much for doing it again tonight. >> thank you. >> we will be right back. >> we will be right back. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. want to get the most out of one sheet? 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