>> how donald trump would solve the debt crisis and what he would do to keep america great. and remember the uproar over president obama's birth certificate? >> honestly, i'm very proud that i was able to bring this to a point. nobody else was. >> i'll ask him why he says the race to the 2012 white house will be the nastiest in history, and why the white house pays too much attention to wall street. and a candid conversation with tafis smiley. this is "piers morgan tonight." donald trump says america's economy has gone from bad to worse and now he is joining me on the phone. >> hello, piers. >> congratulations on being a grand father again. your daughter had a beautiful girl arabella rose. >> thank you. >> if we were to describe a good future for arabella, what would you do? >> the debt limits have to come down. the whole world of debt has to be changed as far as this country is concerned. we have to create jobs, and we have to create them rapidly because if we don't, things are going to just head in the direction that's going to be almost impossible to recover from. so we really need jobs now. we have to take jobs away from other countries because other countries are taking our jobs. it is practically not a country that does business with the united states that isn't making, let's call it, a very big profit. china is going to make $300 billion on us at least this year. and they just revised that recently. i don't know if you saw. but they just said those numbers are going to be low. so we have to take our country back. >> what do you think of this gang of six plan? do you think it's workable from what you've seen? >> well, from what i've seen, and nobody really knows exactly what it represents and what it is yet, but at least they are in there pitching, and at least they are trying to make the big deal. the big deal is really the deal they should make. i don't like the deal where we kick it down the road for six months. this is the time to make the deal. and i have to tell you, the republicans have the cards. people might not think that, but the republicans have all of the cards. and this is the time to get rid of obama care. this is the time to make the great deal. >> i've been following you on twitter, and you've been pretty aggressive about obama on the economy. you believe that he can't stop spending and that america has to stop spending. one of his beliefs, of course, is that he's got to get rid of these tax incentives for the rich. and look after the guys with no money. why would you oppose that as an ideology? >> well, you know, it's a different world today, piers, where people in this country can form companies in foreign countries, where they pay very little tax, much less tax. and once you start taxing -- and i'm not talking about me. but once you start taxing people that do create jobs and do createness create businesses, you take the businesses away and then you're really going to have an unemployment problem. he's treading on very dangerous waters. >> i put this question out the other day. given where we are right now in america, economically, how much of the blame should be attached to barack obama, and how much should be attached to the previous eight years of republican administration? if you were choosing a percentage, apportioning blame to each party there, what would you say? >> well, look, you know as well as anybody, and you know me probably better than most because of our wonderful relationship on "celebrity apprentice," where you won and did great, and i'm proud of you and i'm proud of how well you're doing. but you understand, i was never a big fan of george bush, ok? it wasn't like, oh, gee, i'm a rah-rah guy for george bush. but obama took over a situation, and has made it not better, but probably worse. i think the economy is getting worse. i see things getting worse. employment has gone up, not down. so bush certainly wasn't the greatest. and obama has not done the job. and he's created a lot of disincentive. he's created a lot of great dissatisfaction. regulations and regulatory is going through the roof. it's almost impossible to get anything done in the country. environmentally speaking, i want to tell you, i see jobs that are stopped all the time because of absolutely insane and ridiculous environmental rules. and these are jobs that could be employing a lot of people. so nothing has been made better. it's only been made worse. so in terms of percentages, you know, i would just not really like to say that. i would say i wasn't a fan of the first, and i'm certainly not a fan of the second, because the second has made things worse, not better. >> and in terms of america plc, the business model, if you like, america incorporated, as it is here, if you were analyzing the old model and the way it ought to go, what are the fundamental changes? it seems to me you're right about bureaucracy. china doesn't bog itself down with bureaucracy. they just get stuff done, and that is why they are roaring ahead. that's one of the things. secondly, america doesn't really build anything anymore. doesn't make anything. it doesn't export enough stuff. to these countries that now have money. what other things have you identified? what should america be doing to revise its business plan, to get itself going again? >> well, you're really right about that. the system and the model is broken. it didn't used to be broken years ago. everybody went out and they worked. and you look at 50% of the people aren't paying taxes. and it's an amazing statistic. but tremendous numbers of people aren't paying any taxes. and we have a lot of people that just don't want to work, they don't have the incentive to work, or that haven't been brought up to work. it's a big problem for this country. in china, everybody is running around working like mad. and i give them great credit for that. but i also give them great credit for being much smarter than our leaders, and they've taken our jobs away. they manufacture our products. as do other countries. and the first thing that has to be done is we have to get back on track with respect to opec, which is a tremendous abuser of this country, and we don't even talk about it. and with respect to china and others who abuse our country because their leaders have made much better deals than our leaders because our leaders are either not as smart or there's some other reason. but it's inconceivable some of the deals they make. you look at colombia. a country not that large. they had a $4 billion surplus on us this year. they made $4 billion. we never make a deal. we never make a deal where we come out on top. so we've lost our jobs. we've lost our incentive. and i will tell you, and piers, i have discussed this with you before, getting things done in this country, if you want to build something, if you want to start a company, it's getting to be virtually impossible with the bureaucracy. it's horrible. >> i think america is just so bogged down in red tape. getting almost basic things done involves sheaves of paperwork. and i'm quite surprised living here now just how the most basic stuff you want done in your life requires hundreds of pages of documents. this is one of the reasons that countries like china are storming ahead, because they just don't have that kind of bureaucracy. >> it's interesting in china. i have been to china and i've been all over the world. and they want to build a city, and they fill in a part of the ocean. it takes them two days. we'll build a city and create thousands of jobs. if you ever even suggested it in this country, they would say you're certifiably insane because you can't do it. i have seen recently where a certain type of grass -- i don't go into the level of detail that i should. but a certain type of grass has held up a major job from being built. major. supplying jobs to everybody and everybody wants it to happen. but because it's got a little piece of grass, a certain type of rather rare grass, the environmentalists hold up the job. and now this job will never get done. >> it is ridiculous. >> china will fill up the ocean. and i say to a friend of mine in china, how long did it take you to get your permits? he doesn't even know what i'm talking about, it went so fast. so this country is in serious trouble. and we have to get back on track. >> yeah. it is in serious trouble. and what i want to talk to you about now is who you would trust, given you're no longer in the presidential race. which of the republican candidates so far, and, you know, michele bachmann, i guess, is emerging as one of the favorites from the tea party side of things. mitt romney appears to be best at fundraising at the moment and so on. which one have you identified as potentially the one that could beat barack obama? >> well, it's too early for me to say. everybody is asking me for support and all of that. it's just too early for me to say. but i will say this. that i think the republicans are so misplaying their hand. they have the cards. and it started back in december, when you had the lame duck session. and obama rose like a phoenix. he was gone. it was over for obama. and they brought him back with the deal they made, which was a horrible deal. paul ryan's plan where he attacks medicare is one of the dumbest things i've ever seen, especially if you happen to be running for election, because you're going to see -- the only one happy is nancy pelosi and her group, because you're going to see some tremendous reversals. i see it already with congressman west, where he's being beaten up now by, you know, the democrats over medicare. >> and what do you think of michele bachmann? >> well, i think she's a very underrated person. she actually came to see me in new york a few weeks ago. and i was very impressed with her. and i think she's highly underrated. i think she's very good. >> and sarah palin obviously has not committed yet. she's not a good friend of yours. >> no, i think she's terrific. she is a terrific person. she came to see me a little while before. >> they are all coming to see you, donald. >> yes, they are. but they are highly underrated people. they're smart. they know what they're doing. they know every move. and they don't get proper credit. so i don't know that sarah is going to run. i don't think she's going to run. i'm not sure she knows whether or not she's going to run. but i think she's a terrific person. i think michele is a terrific person. >> talking about people coming to see me, in this case me, i have an old friend of yours, tavis smiley coming in, in a moment, for an interview, who said during the birther controversy that your involvement in any election would make it the ugliest, nastiest, most divisive and most racist in the history of this republic. anything you'd like to say to tavis? >> the word "racist" has not been applied to me, i will tell you that. i was very proud of the job i did with respect to the birther issue, because i got obama to do something which nobody else was able to get him to do. and there's a real question why he took so long to do it. maybe sometime you can ask him why and check out that document carefully. but i got him to do something else that nobody else was able to do. but the republicans have a chance. but the way they're going about it, they are not going to get him out of office. they are making mistake after mistake, and i can see them already making another mistake when it comes to what they're discussing right now in terms of debt limits. >> donald trump, provocative and entertaining as ever. thank you very much for joining me. >> thank you very much, piers. coming up, tavis smiley responds. his take on donald trump, politics, and president obama. on of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say. tavis smiley is the host of his own show and the author of "fail up." he is joining me now. >> piers, congrats on your show. >> and on yours. you heard donald trump there. what did you think of that? >> i did not call him racist. i suggested that the way he was handling this birther issue is indicate of if -- indicative of how nasty this race for the white house is going to be. i stand by that. there is all kinds of signs that this will be an ugly, nasty, divisive race for the white house. >> i know donald trump well. i don't think he's got a racist bone in his body. i know that. i think he felt with obama and the birther thing, no matter how ludicrous it was to other people, he couldn't understand why the president just doesn't release the birth certificate right away. it was a bit odd that it took so long. why do you think it took so long? >> i'm the last person they would ask to people for them. what i do know is that barack obama has been treated in such a way there is no comparison to any president being asked to render that document. that issue had been settled long ago. and for whatever reason, hate, racist, whatever it may be. there are many in this country in the tea party and beyond who will not let this issue go. i thought then and think now that it was beneath him to try to build his campaign on that issue. beyond that, i thought donald trump was pimping the media. and i thought many in the media went with it. he was laughing all the way from the day. i said from day one donald trump is not going to go for president. he is making too much money. he pimped us. >> i would take issue with that. i spoke him with privately through that. there was a time he went in the polls for the nominees. he was deadly serious. he was looking at this and getting amazing reaction from the public. then he had the triple whammy really. you had the white house correspondents dinner he went to. osama bin laden got killed. the birther issue was resolved. and the air went out of his sails. but he was thinking about it. it wasn't just some game. >> you have insights i don't have, obviously. what i do know is this is not the first time he's flirted with running for the white house. if you're going to run, run. but run on legitimate and serious issues. this notion of the birther attack on the president, that was beyond the pale. my friend cornell put it this way. when it comes to the president, we have to respect him, protect him, and correct him. and if in in my career, i have always respected the president. there are times that i have had to protect him against birther attacks, but just as often i will correct him if i think he is wrong. this is a case where i thought he needed to be protected against vicious and vulgar attacks. >> is america more or less racist since barack obama became the first african-american president? >> more or less? that's a good question. i don't think it's more or less. i think what we see are fissures that have always been there, but they have been exploited as a result of his ascendancy to the white house. this whole notion of a post racial america was nonsense from the beginning. it was a bad idea, a bad notion, a bad forulation when it was first raised. i think what it signifies is america may be less racist. less racist, but in no way are we post racial. >> in a funny way, it was a fantastic day for african-americans when he got into the white house. but at the same time it raised the whole issue, put it out there, exposed people. and i share your concern that the next election campaign, there will be subtle racism. a play here, i'm sure. >> why just subtle? why not outright and avert? >> do you see that, though? >> that's my point. i think that birther attack was indicative of that. >> moving on from that. it's been resolved. do you still see residual issues there, what you perceive to be racist views? >> i think the deck is stacked against this president like it never has been before. i'm not going to suggest that was racist through and through. for all black folk -- all the love and admiration for barack obama in the african-american community, obviously he could not have been voted in without the white folk. black folk could not have done this by ourselves. so i don't want to have a blanket approach to calling all americans racist that didn't agree or support barack obama. and i hated that thing about me when i made the comment about donald trump and obama. my point wasn't to stack the deck in such a way that any critique of the president was racist. that doesn't make and sense, because i critique the president too harshly for some people. >> what is your main critique of president obama right now? >> it's a question of are you going to side with the weak or the strong? and the evidence to date shows that this president has sided with the strong over the weak. >> in what way? >> wall street. when wall street came calling, he responded. in ways that sommers and geithner and others in the administration wanted him to respond. i think wall street is exhibit a. in so many instances, we see him siding with the strong over the weak. or compromising and capitulating on issues that do not serve the best interest of thes by that -- of the base that got him elected. >> part of his charm of why he got elected is he's not reactionary. what is wrong with a president taking his time listening to the arguments making decisions? are we in too much of a rapid fire society these days where everything has to be boom, boom, boom. i quite like that style of presidency. i won't say he's perfect. but i quite like that style of presidency. >> two responses to that. one, i laugh at my friends in the media, particularly those who are progressives or liberals, who celebrated the fact that he was calm and deliberate and methodical and he listened well when he was running. those same progressives are now giving the president hell for taking too much time, et cetera. it's been amazing to watch that 180 shift in the progressive critique against his presidency. number two, there is nothing wrong with the president taking his time to consider all sides. but at some point people want to see the president fighting for them. that's what their polling suggested that people want to know whether or not the president is fighting for them. my grand dad said there's some fights that ain't worth fighting even if you win. there's other fights you have to fight even if you lose. i think americans want to see the president fight for them. >> hold that thought. we'll see what you think he should be fighting on and why. 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