the always controversial michael moore for the hour. this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening. michael moore is one of my favorite guests. mainly because he always causes trouble. he's a passionate advocate for america's working class. a man who is never -- i mean never afraid to speak his mind. the last time he was here, things got heated. he promised to come back anyway. and being a man of his word, he's here tonight. his latest book is "here comes trouble, stories from my life." welcome back you calmed down since our last encounter. >> no, i haven't. that's okay. >> people say to me, what's he like away from the camera? is he as fired up and angry? does he wake up in the morning like john mcenroe and start screaming at people? what are you like? >> you actually have seen me backstage here. so i think you would say that i'm actually kind of a quiet -- >> you are. you're a contradiction. >> -- shy person. but i'm -- listen, i didn't make my first movie till i was 35. so i was just living a normal life, minding my own business. >> do you ever wish you hadn't decided to embark on this crazy second life? >> no. it was okay because i had the first 17 years of my adulthood where i didn't have to worry about anybody being mad at me so -- but i -- but it was -- i think by the time i got to the age of 35, i was like when is somebody going to do something like this, specifically about general motors and flint and our economy there. and then i can't keep complaining about this or just waiting for somebody else to do it, so i'm going to make this movie "roger and me." and we'll see what happens. >> and everything changed. but how do you deal with the level of vitriol that you get? you get huge praise from people that like you. >> yeah. >> but you get unbelievable -- >> i'm sure most people. >> but you get an unbelievable amount of stick, too. how do you deal with that? i'll see you back behind the scenes. you are quite a shy guy. >> right. >> i can't imagine it doesn't hit you. >> a long time ago when it first started, i thought it was kind of funny, actually, when i would hear thins on fox news or on limbaugh or whatever. and i realized that they had invented a fictional character and put my name on it. all these things they say about me, i just kind of treat it as entertainment, frankly. and i don't really -- it doesn't really affect me. it would affect me if somebody who is a friend or a family member said, you know, mike -- that would bother me. >> somebody you cared about. >> yeah, or if i let my fans down in some way or the people that go to my movies or read my books. i'd feel bad about that. >> i saw president obama the other day, he made a joke about being unpopular. i was talking to david axelrod last night, in many ways that obama is fairly decent guy. he's young, dynamic, fit, a good speaker, a good figurehead for america around the world, popular abroad, lots of ticks in the box for him, yet he gets an incredible amount of vitriol, too. i can't help but think it must get to him as well. the nature of the modern beast with the internet and everything else that goes on. >> he's had to be barack obama his whole life. by now he's probably got a pretty thick skin, i would think. but it is odd the way our level of politics of where the demonization of your opponent. i never -- i would never question a republican of whether or not they loved america or whether or not they were patriotic. i assume that what they're doing is what they believe is best for the country. but when they throw this back, it is a little like, wow, don't you understand that i'm an american, too? we're all in the same boat? we're going to sink or swim together. >> obama made a very passionate speech today. let's play a part of this and discuss it afterwards. >> this kind of inequality, a level that we haven't seen since the great depression, hurts us all. when middle class families can no longer afford to buy the goods and services that businesses are selling, when people are slipping out of the middle class, it drags down the entire economy, from top to bottom. >> what did you make of the speech? >> i think that this is the obama that i voted for, and i think the majority of people who voted for him voted for this obama that today he referenced franklin roosevelt and that we have to get out of this mentality we've been in for the last 30 years where it's sort of you're on your own economy. that's the philosophy of the other side. you're on your own. good luck. i got mine, you get yours. don't come to me. and that kind of thinking, that's not what's going to pull us through. you come from a country and much of europe, most of the western democracies have the concept of we, that you know, we are all in this together, we're all brits. even conservatives like in your country believe that every brit should be able to see a doctor if they get sick and not have to worry about whether or not they can pay for it. that's just a basic common thing no matter what your politics are in britain. and here, i mean, you've been here, i guess i can ask you the question, what is it about us -- >> i'm not sure i agree with that basic tenet of what you're saying. i believe that americans instinctively are incredibly patriotic. there is a we are together as an overview. the problem comes at lower levels. and it comes from the administration, consecutive administrations not making it clear to the individual in america what their own responsibilities are and what the governments are to them, i think. there's no charity on it. >> when you say we're patriotic, we're all together, we're all americans, when you hear that, though -- >> let me give you an example of whether i think you're wrong. >> invading another country or -- >> no. i remember doing talent shows, for example. we had celebrity guests. if the prime minister of great britain had walked out as a guest in an audience to one of those shows, biggest show in britain, half the audience would have booed him. >> yes. >> in america, that wouldn't happen. there would be a respect for the president, for the office of the presidency. >> until now. >> i don't think obama would get booed now. >> he can't even go to a nascar event, michelle obama shows up and they boo her. >> so you think it is turning now? >> i think with his election in particular, i think that the vitriol toward him simply because he's him and toward his wife because why? she wants people to eat vegetables and take better care of themselves? that's her big crime? no, no, no. you know, i've been on question time on the bbc and you're right. a politician comes on there and the audience, man, they're not afraid -- they let him have it. but you know what? what they don't do is they don't demonize. they don't make it personal. when they go after the politician -- i've been on, like you said, your shows over there. they're mad about the politics. they're mad about the decisions the prime minister has made or the party has made. >> i think you're being quite generous, michael, honestly. i know britain well and they chew up all politicians now. and it's gotten very febrile, the media and -- >> and you have a record number of mcdonald's. you are becoming more like us. if that's your point. >> you'll be telling me to say route soon. it was my issue with obama's speech today. it was very much directed at the american public to say, right, i understand the problem. there is inequality. we need to deal with this, go back to roosevelt, back to those ideals. >> yes. >> at the same time we've just come off a period where the american public over thanksgiving holiday have gone back out and in record numbers spent, spent, spent again. money that many of them simply don't have. >> yeah. >> the message has not got through, has it? >> well, this is a problem, this is a problem with us. you know, first of all, the american people are inundated with advertisement after advertisement of buy, buy, buy. you've got to have the latest thing. the ipad 1 isn't any good, you have to have the ipad 2. now you got to have the 4-s, the 5-b, the 6-c. there's this constant consume, consume, consume. it isn't good for the planet. it isn't good for us. people also shop when they're -- you know, not feeling that well about their situation. i'm not -- we're not on dr. phil here, but i'm just saying that people -- >> but michael -- >> people are depressed right now. >> i don't think your parents' generation -- >> but here's the difference. >> they wouldn't do this. >> because my dad never had to worry about whether or not he was going to have his job next year or two years or three years. >> but that's not true, though, is it? that's not true. >> that is true. >> in the post war period many people had to worry about their jobs. >> no, i wish i could take you through a job tunnel. there was job security. if your company did well, you did well. if you worked hard and prospered. people my age going back to college, nothing or next to nothing. at the most, huh to work at dairy queen during the summer and that would pay for your college education. it has completely changed. everybody is living this agitated, anxiety-ridden life of am i going to have something tomorrow. what are the statistics a couple months ago that how many -- 50 million americans are just a couple months away from poverty. if they lost their job, they only have two months of a cushion if that in the bank. my dad and my mom did not live like that. that was not our america when i grew up. >> but i never met your parents, but i've read your books and i know how close you were to them. but fundamentally that era, that generation of people didn't have the same casual, cavalier and i would say reckless view of money that many people around the world now seem to have. >> well, the reckless view, if you want to call it that, remember that the fish rots from the head down. >> right. >> the reckless view starts on wall street, starts with corporate america, starts with the captains of capitalism. they've created this huge casino where they've recklessly lost pension funds of millions of people, ruined the near future -- hopefully just the near future of this country. >> but when obama makes a speech -- >> but surprising that a certain number of americans -- >> and i'm not blaming them. but people have to be responsible to their own household budgets as well. >> most americans are very responsible. >> do you believe that? >> yes, they're watching us and sitting at home right now trying to figure out -- they've got the pencil out and trying to figure out how am i going to have enough money so the kids have lunch next week. >> if that's true, how do you explain the thanksgiving bonanza, millions and million of americans rushing out to max their credit cards again knowing the country's $14 trillion in debt, knowing that nobody appear to have any real ans to it? i don't get that mentality. even more importantly beneath the rhetoric -- >> you don't get that mentality. we'll cut to commercial soon. for three minutes the tv will hammer people with buy, buy, buy. or you're not beautiful enough if you don't have that. or if you want to keep up with the joneses, buy what's in the next commercial. why are these americans like this? i think it's quite clear that there's a brain washing that why are these americans like this? i think it's quite clear that there's a brain washing that goes on for a long period of time. it's been going on for a good 30 years. >> what is the answer then? >> well, the answer is reality. the reality -- >> how do you make americans who are spending beyond their mean, many of them are, millions. >> not the majority. you're talking about a minority. even though we have 20% of the population that is either unemployed or underemployed, that still mean that there's 80% that are working. the economy still does run. but i honestly -- again, i'm not dr. phil, but i think a lot of people, especially this time of year want to feel better. they don't know if they're going to have a job next year. they don't know if their kids are going to be able to go to college, but i'll get him an ipod. you know, we'll all feel better for a day. >> i think that attitude has to be addressed as well as all the other issues. >> the best way to address it is let's have real middle class jobs in this country so that people can buy what they want to buy. when they buy things that puts other people to work. then they get to buy things. >> let's take a break and come back and explore that thought. also if we're going to get new presidents or we may have the same one again, but either way a big decision for americans facing them in the year. 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[ female announcer ] the travelocity guarantee. from the price to the room to the trip you'll never roam alone. back with my special guest michael moore. when we say even in the great days it's an interesting debate when you try to pin any of the blame on the average joe in the street. you're always going to face, as i'm sure i will -- people will say, hang on a second, don't you blame us for what the bankers did. i accept that. >> that was your crew during the break. that's the average joes and janes on the floor here. >> and that reaction. and part of what they were saying is with christmas coming people are rushing out to take advantage of bargains so they can afford to get their children. i totally get that psychology, but i don't think it's good enough to simply always blame other people for your own overspending if that's what you're doing. >> for the minority that do that, yes, personal responsibility and some planning is a good idea. okay? how's that? >> let's turn to the real villains. because we discussed this a lot before. but the bankers, wall street. you've been at the forefront of the occupy wall street. you launched a new initiative today where you're focusing on foreclosures. you believe the banks should have a moral obligation to people who lost their homes as a result of the financial meltdown, which you believe predominantly came from greedy bankers. >> not just me, actually. the fbi did their own investigation of the mortgage fraud crisis and determined that about 25% of the mortgage problem was because of those people you were talking about in the last segment, people who were spending beyond their means. 75% of this problem, though, was caused by fraudulent practices on the parts of the banks. "60 minutes" did a great story sunday night, i don't know if you saw it with countrywide and these other -- the way that they schemed and scammed to bamboozle people into this. >> but again, let me throw this devil's advocate position to you. >> yeah. >> because i totally agree. and i think it's disgusting what happened with some of these greedy bankers fleecing the most vulnerable people in society with these subprime mortgages. it was a total scandal. should have been regulated against, never happened. i totally agree with you. again, though, i come back to a certain degree of personal responsibility. the people who lost their homes, a lot of them, not the majority, but a lot of people simply bought homes they couldn't afford. that's an unarguable fact. >> 25% did that, yes. 75% didn't do that. >> 25% is a lot of people, isn't it? should those people now -- using the same argument about the bailouts and so on, should those people who did deliberately really spend beyond their means, should they be bailed out in the way you're talking about with these foreclosures? >> not just me, by the way, there's a whole organization called occupy our homes. today they began with a number of actions where -- this is one of the way the occupy movement is going to deal with the winter is that people are going to start occupying and helping people who are being evicted from their homes to stand there, lock arms and not allow the sheriff's deputies to come in there and throw them out of their homes. to help them in court. marcy kaptur is a congresswoman from toledo, very eloquent on this. don't leave your home. if you get an eviction notice, don't leave. that's the worst thing you can do. when they take you to court, go to court and say to the judge, could the bank please produce the mortgage? the bank can't. because the bank -- and this is where we ended up with the crazy cries that happened in '08 is the bank took your home mortgage, chopped it up a hundred different way, bundled it with a thousand other mortgages, then sold it off to the chinese or the russians or whoever they sold it off to. so the bank cannot produce your mortgage in court. if they can't produce the mortgage, if you've got a decent judge, the judge will say how can we evict them if you can't even prove you the bank actually own the home because of course the bank doesn't own the home any more. so this movement right now, occupy our homes is going to do that. but nobody's asking for a free ride here. nobody want the free lunch for people -- >> but -- a free lunch. >> what's the biggest problem we've got right now, one in five homes is under water, one in five mortgages is under water. in other words, as you know, the home is no longer worth what they bought it for, yet they've got to pay what it used to be worth. there's no other business like that. cnn doesn't have to pay you what you used to be worth when you were make gazillions in britain. they pay you for what you're worth now and how your ratings go will determine your next contract, right? it's not based on what you did before. people have a home. they bought a home four or five years ago that was worth $200,000. now it's worth $100,000, they still have to pay the $200,000. the banks allow people to come in and rework these loans so that it is more in tune with what the home is actually worth right now. number one. number two, if for some reason, say for instance somebody was negligent or whatever, we don't gain as a society by throwing somebody or their family out on the curb in the middle of winter. can't we rework this so that -- they can't have the home any more, they can't pay for it. let them live there and let them pay rent. isn't that -- wouldn't that be the decent thing to do. >> on a human level i can completely -- >> the bank gets money, gets rent money. they can work out something for what their equity is -- >> here again, i just come back to this point one more time. slightly devil's advocate, but i actually believe in the principle of it. i remember when britain rebuilt itself after the second world war, when it was really in a bad way. and there was a real sense, you talked about it earlier, this collective responsibility thing. it was double-edged. the government had to come up with a way to get the country going again, but they also said to the people, right, look, we're in this together, you're all going to have to batten down the hatches, you're all going to have to spend this money. i'm waiting for that speech in america from an american president or political lead are to say we're in the mire, the bankers were terrible, wall street was awful, the government got it wrong, all these things went wrong, but to get ourselves back on track, you have all got to batten down the financial hatches. >> yeah, but you don't have to -- >> live within your means. >> you don't ask the person making