had tended to in some ways be destructive. >> reporte >> newt gingrich for the hour. the piers morgan interview starts now. good evening. the eyes of the political world are on south carolina, the republican primary is just days away and the candidates are swarming all over the state. but here's something you may not know about one of them, newt gingrich. the man has an absolute passion for animals and zoos. so he invited us here to south carolina's roper mountain science center. it's dog eat dog out on that campaign trail, but all the while, things in here seem pretty peaceful to me so far, with the exception, possibly, of newt gingrich. why here? >> it's fun. it's interesting. it gets you back to nature. it reminds you of the world that we live in and of the fact that life is bigger than us. >> last time i talked to you, i said, you must be in the most memorable moment of your life. and you actually, instinctively, cited being in the african bush and seeing the wild animals at play. so it wasn't entirely surprising to me that you chose this kind of location. but i walked around earlier, and it seemed to be a very appropriate venue, in the sense that right behind you is a large preying mantis, which you just informed me is most predatory animal on earth. >> you could think of that as a super pac. >> whose super pac? >> any super pac. >> yours or mitt romney's? >> any super pac. the nature of those organizations is they have no responsibilities, no connection to any kind of pattern of reasonable politics, and it's a model i hope we can get beyond, but we won't this year. >> now, the last time i spoke to you, we talked about super pacs and you were pretty scathing about the super pacs that mitt romney was using, the amount of money he was spending. clearly implying these were all his ex-staffers, ex-friends and so on, and you were trying very hard, and laudably, to rise above this and be nice guy newt. clearly, that didn't work very well. the halo, may i suggest, has slightly slipped, and your own super pac super pac, $3.5 million worth, is about to be unleashed in south carolina, presumably, you would conceive now that you have changed position on this? >> well, i would concede that every effort i made to stay positive and every effort i made to talk romney out of doing this failed. that you can't, you know, you can't laterally disarm unless you want to get out of the race. and since this is the objective reality, we have no choice. so we have to match -- in some way, we have to have effective advertising that matches their advertising. where literally, no matter howed good your ideas are, no matter how big your crowds are, the weight of television and radio and direct mailing in iowa is un -- you know, 45% of all the ads. >> you can blow him to pieces. what your friends and supporters found surprising was that you allowed yourself to get in that position in the first place. i want to read you some of the things that you have said before. they're quite interesting, about how your position on this has changed. you once said, one of the great problems we have in the republican party is we don't encourage you to be nasty. we encourage you to be neat, obedie obedient, loyal, and faithful, and all those boy scout words, which would be great around the campfire, but are lousy in politics. so where does saint newt come from? >> it's not a question of being saint newt. it's a question of being where are you prepared to fight? i think when we're up against obama this fall, we're going to have no choice. they're raising $1 billion. they clearly intend to run a continuous, unending negative campaign. and you're going to have to be able to somehow match that, or you won't be in the same business. >> with hindsight, would you have played it differently in iowa? if you'd known what was coming? >> well, probably i would have reacted earlier to the attack ads, especially the ones that were untrue. and i might well have gone to contrast with governor romney's record in massachusetts much earlier. but i, you know, this was the beginning of a long process, and frankly, i wanted to run the experiment. i wanted to see, if you stayed totally positive, if you were relentlessly positive, what would happen? well, it turned out you could come in with 14 or 15%, you could be forth, but remember, i started at a pretty strong first in early december, so it's pretty clear that the relentless negative ads do have an effect. >> two very famous businessmen have tweeted about you today. rupert murdoch said, "can't blame newt g. too much. he was carpet bombed with negatives by romney, brilliant visionary, just too much baggage and erratic." what's your response to that? >> i like the "brilliant visionary" part. and i like the fact that he recognizes that the context in which we're responding is, in fact, in the context of carpet bombing by romney. and i think that sets for a different tone. people give you permission to behave differently, because it's now sunk in, you know, even in the news media, there's a pretty broad acceptance that i took all the hits for three solid weeks and patiently tried to figure out if there was a way to stay totally positive. so i think there's a much higher tolerance, now, for me to bring up romney's pro-abortion record or romney's tax increase record, or to the disagree to which romney governed in massachusetts with liberal judges. so i think you can now draw a contrast with a sense that that's fair, given the context of all the negative ads. >> in answer to the too much baggage and the erratic allegations, a bit of truth in both, i would say, wouldn't you? >> i think that's part of what i have to overcome, and i think we've been pretty successfully overcoming it. again, prior to the negative ads, when it was a question of good ideas, good solutions, positive thinking, we were literally pulling away. and gallop and others were reporting an increasingly wide gap, which is, i think, why the romney pick panicked and went to an all-out negative attack. but the truth is, today, as "the wall street journal" pointed out, i have the best jobs plan and his, according to the "wall street journal" is so timid, it resembles obama. now, that's a pretty big gap in terms of positive ideas. >> jack welch said today, the critics were right, newt really say and do anything to try to win. such a sad flaw in an otherwise smart guy. he's for romney. >> famous people for romney line up, who will say anything, let me use jack welch's language. they'll say anything in order to help get romney elected. i mean, what's new? the fact is, what i have said has consistently been conservative. and the only critique the people are upset about is raising questions about a business record which romney has touted as the base of his presidential campaign. >> here's the potential flaw in the new strategy of going after him about bain. nobody really knows the answer to whether he created more jobs by doing what he did at bain, by taking over troubled companies and in most cases, making them more successful and selling them on, without a cost, but a human toll cost. i think a few went bankrupt, and the argument goes from their side. they probably would have done anyway. did he create more jobs or did he wreck more jobs? do you know the answer? >> the point is, if a guy is running for president -- he has two major credentials, his record for governor, that he doesn't want to talk about, because he was much more liberal as governor than the republican primary will ever endorse, and his record in business, which he doesn't want to talk about. now, at what point are you allowed to say, running on commercials alone isn't enough? >> but if he manages to establish that his record at bain was such that he created more jobs than he effectively lost, you could argue that's exactly what is needed in america right now, in the sense that you're going to have to cut, aren't you? >> but he makes that assertion anyway. but he doesn't prove it. he just asserts it. >> but have you proven the opposite? >> i just raised the question? >> have you proven he was a force for negative? >> i think we've certainly raised the question. it's not about capitalism or free enterprise, it's about values, character, and judgment. and even he said, i think it was in 2007, that he looks back at some things he'd do differently now. the question is, in terms of values, character, and judgment, were those the right decisions in those circumstances? and i've said up-front, i think he's going to sooner or later have to do a press conference and walk people through three or four of the most troubling cases. and anybody who thinks he's going to be able to get by obama and axelrod this fall without explaining this is kidding themselves. >> rick perry told me last night that in a way, you guys are doing him a favor, because you're having the debate in the open now before the democrats have to get into it. >> the the last thing you want is to nominate somebody who collapses in september because they can't answer the questions. i mean, so you had better answer, you know, people want to attack me for my past, that's fine. i either will answer it and be ready to be the nominee or i won't. romney ought to have to meet the same test. >> he's been very scathing, through these super pacs, and also himself, pretty personal, too, against you. it got pretty nasty, pretty quickly. and only now are you responding. what do you actually think of him, personally, as a man? >> i don't. >> you have no view? >> no, i have no view. >> do you like him? >> he is a competitor. he's somebody who i think was unnecessarily negative and who ran -- who knows that some of the things he ran were not true. but that's his decision. that's how he wants to play the game. >> you called him a liar last week. >> no, i responded to somebody who asked me that. >> same thing. >> i think -- well, if you watch sunday's debate, there's this marvelous paragraph where romney begins by saying, "i have never seen any of the ads" -- >> and then starts talking about them. >> and than he outlines one of the ads perfectly. just watch the paragraph and you decide. >> do you still stand by the fact he's a liar? about you? >> i still stand by the fact that he is not truthful. and i stand by the fact that he doesn't want to be candid about his record as governor. and i stand by the fact that he doesn't want to be candid about some of these ads. and all i ask you to do is watch -- don't ask me. watch him. >> you said that character is very important for whoever wins this nomination. yet you won't tell me what you think of mitt romney. what do you think of his character? >> i don't have an obligation to answer any of that. >> uh but his character? >> i'm not going to sit here and play psychotherapy. >> i don't mean to. but if character is a category for this nominee, isn't it perfectly acceptable to ask his competitors about his character? >> it should be quite clear that i believe that he ought to be candid about being a moderate, he ought to be candid about the fact that he was consistently pro-choice, not pro-life, as governor. he has tax-paid abortions. he has planned parenthood written into romney care by name. he appointed pro-abortion judges. his government actually helped build an abortion clinic after he supposedly converted. so i think you could go through a whole series of things and say, there's a big gap between the romney commercial and the romney record. >> is he better for a leader, for a presidential president of the united states, to admit that they have been wrong and to change their mind about issues, or to stick subbornly by their same platform on these things, decade after decade? >> if somebody -- first of all, if you had a fairly long career, you should have changed your mind on something. i mean, there should have been something -- >> it would be strange if you hadn't, right? >> right. there should be some place where you say, i learned something new and i have a different opinion. >> be are you dubious about romney's motivation for changing his position? >> first of all, if you go to romneytaxes.com, you'll see every single tax he raised while he was governor. he would pretend he didn't raise them. as i just said to you, after he claims he was pro-life, he went through a whole series of pro-abortion steps as governor. these are facts, these aren't -- so i think you can look and decide for yourself how -- you know, he will tell that he's a conservative, he'll poi appoint liberal judges, consistently. >> could you imagine ever working for him? >> no. but why -- what does that -- he couldn't ever imagine ever working for me either. >> people become president and appoint people to key positions they don't necessarily like, but who they really respect as political operators. you would be a big catch. >> i didn't think of him as president. i thought about working for him. >> you've had to consider the unthinkable. >> you just said to me, if the president of the united states asked me to do something, would you consider? i am with jon huntsman. if the president of the united states of either party asks you to try to help on something that matters to the nation, you have the obligation of a citizen to see whether or not you can do it. because you owe it to the country, not to the personality. >> let's take a short break, come back and talk about south carolina. because many are saying that for you, newt gingrich, this is the biggest moment of your political life. maybe you don't agree. maybe you do. 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[ female announcer ] the space of a small suv. the fuel efficiency of a prius. ♪ well, baby, can't you see the all-new prius v from toyota. ♪ come along with me the all-new prius v from toyota. when bp made a commitment to the gulf, we knew it would take time, but we were determined to see it through. today, while our work continues, i want to update you on the progress: bp has set aside 20 billion dollars to fund economic and environmental recovery. we're paying for all spill- related clean-up costs. and we've established a 500 million dollar fund so independent scientists can study the gulf's wildlife and environment for ten years. thousands of environmental samples from across the gulf have been analyzed by independent labs under the direction of the us coast guard. i'm glad to report all beaches and waters are open for everyone to enjoy. and the economy is showing progress with many areas on the gulf coast having their best tourism seasons in years. i was born here, i'm still here and so is bp. we're committed to the gulf for everyone who loves it, and everyone who calls it home. if getting attacked by newt gingrich is somewhat akin to getting attacked by a porcupinp. he attacks everywhere with no consistent theme and he looks to mean when he does it, it's not the most effective attack. >> that was ari fleischer, the white house press secretary to george w. bush, attacking newt gingrich. a porcupine, he says. everywhere you look, someone's getting bricked. . >> i don't think that's my reputation, but that's fine if that's what ari floosher wants to say. >> the same ari fleischer has come out today and said the amount you have going to south carolina, you could be the one that now threatens mitt romney quite seriously and that a dent to him there could precipitate a whole new battleground. >> look, i think south carolina on the 21st is unbelievably important, okay? romney, although he has yet to get anywhere close to a majority, by three to one, republicans in iowa voted against him. by two to one, republicans in new hampshire voted against him. nonetheless, he can claim he won both, even if one was by eight votes. if he wins here, he has enormous momentum towards the momentum. >> unstoppable, do you think? >> well, in this day and age, i don't know if anything's unstoppable. but he would have enormous momentum. >> if he won by more than 10%. >> i think if he wins by one point, he'll go into south carolina ten latdays later with enormous momentum. >> what would be a good result for you outside of winning? can there be a good result wm. >> i think this comes down to in order for the nomination process to go to a conservative, i have to beat romney on the 21st. and i think -- and that's a decision south carolinians, i think, are going to face very seriously. because the more they learn his record, the more they realize, for example, he's pro-gun control. >> if you don't win, given you've set that parameter, to you drop out? >> i don't know. i don't want to pre-judge anything. >> if it's that crucial? >> first of all, i think i'm going to win. i think the events we've had so far in our very first day here have been remarkable. >> but i don't know that a politician likes to play hypotheticals -- >> so i'm not going to play hypotheticals. you can ask 23 different ways, i'm not answering. my goal is to win on the 21st. and i think if we win on the 21st, we go to florida, it is a brand-new game. and at that point, romney's got to confront that when you get outside of -- remember, new hampshire is his third best state after utah and massachusetts. so if he only gets 37% in his third best state, and he can't win here, then i think wyou're n a very different nomination process. this is going to be armageddon. they will come in here with everything they've got, everybody surrogate, every ad, everybody negative attack. at the same time, we're going to be basically drawing a shopper contrast between a georgia reagan conservative and a massachusetts moderate who's pro-gun control, pro-choice, pro-tax increase, pro-liberal judge. and the voters of south carolina will have to decide. >> when it comes to armageddon, that's a good way of putting it, he has a better machinery. do you regret the fact that your machinery had such a cataclysmic start? it disappeared in the summer. you were saying yourself, you did interviews where you said, basically you're dead, what about the others. but you made this incredible comeback. but what you still don't have because of the time it takes to amass this is proper machinery. >> and because of money. romney ran for five years. he is a money machine. he's raised millions on wall street. is there is that his fault or just good politics? >> i'm not saying it's his fault or not his fault. i'm saying to try to match him at what he does best, his to raise money, would have been a dead loser. i radio to match him at what i do best, new solutions. new ability to communicate with people. and we've actually had a pretty interesting campaign so far. >> is this the biggest weak of your life, politically? >> yeah, i think, politically, well, it's the most decisive week. this is the week where everything culminates and we either convince south carolinians to voter for a conservative and unify them around me or, you know, you see romney probably becoming the nominee. >> very quickly, what do you think of the other competitors? is rick santorum, he had the santorum surge, took a bit of a hit in new hampshire, not necessarily surprisingly, is it over fo