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gotten involved with donald trump, and see that very often, even if donald trump -- the people around him are not. and it's just another lesson here, don't work for donald trump. from that kind of most low level person to the vice president, there is nobody who comes out unscathed from their association with this person. >> andrew goldstein, we're not, all you might remember he is the lead investigator for the bob mueller obstruction investigation. he told the new york times quote, demanding that evidence be destroyed is the most basic form of obstruction and it is easy for a jury to understand. he also said that what's described in this indictment is actually more quote, straightforwardly criminal, then the obstructive acts detailed in the mueller report. based on what you've seen, do you agree? how does evidence like this play in front of a jury? what would be your threshold to convince a jury that an
all you might remember he is the lead investigator for the bob mueller obstruction investigation. he told the new york times quote, demanding that evidence be destroyed is the most basic form of obstruction and it is easy for a jury to understand. he also said that what's described in this indictment is actually more quote, straightforwardly criminal, then the obstructive acts detailed in the mueller report. based on what you've seen, do you agree? how does evidence like this play in front of a jury? what would be your threshold to convince a jury that an obstruction request, or destruction of evidence request, did in fact take place? is it simple to say hearsay is going to be enough to convince jurors? >> well, first of all, great question. i agree with that assessment. and the reason why i agree with that is the obstructive act that were discussed in the mueller report were for example, trying to fire mueller himself.
people trying to come to the country and the money going to it. howard: let me just slip this in, and you can make your point. to his credit, michael shear of the new york times quote advocates saying this was sad that this is tougher than anything he'd heard since the trump years. it doesn't seem like biden's proposals are going to do the all that much to semitide of illegal immigration, but -- stem the tide, but but the is it about taking away the other side's argument? >> i think it's much more about the latter, you recall. look -- unfortunately. i hear time and again from democrat friends like lesley that this is something congress needs to solve, they have to come together. forget -- set that aside for the moment. the reality is that we don't have a border at the moment. we do not have enforcement of the existing laws that are on the books, and we have a definition of asylum that has allowed the kind of claims that simply are not justified by
party in the case. the case in question is -- 5 to 4 supreme court ruling from 2014, which allowed privately held companies to object on religious grounds to an obama care law that required employers to cover certain contraceptives for their female employees. it was a big deal. not the courts first time recognizing a for profit corporations claim of religious belief. reverend schenke was an antiabortion leader at the time, told the new york times that he learned of the ruling hours after two of his star donors, donald and gayle wright had dinner with justice samuel alito and his wife, martha and. nbc news is not independently confirming with that reporting. justice alito wrote the hobby lobby majority opinion, in an statement obtained by nbc news, alito says any suggestion that he or his wife leaked the outcome of the ruling is quote, completely false.
it does not weather whether you are arguing something improper. but those cannons, those rules are not applied in anything in the advisory manner to the justices of the supreme court, the nine justices of the supreme court, in a new york times quote, chief justice john roberts, they consult those rules but are not bound by them. so i think that the essential thing here is to codify ethics rules, as barbara just said, that are applied to the supreme court justices, enforced against them, but more deeply, what the court needs to take seriously, their own popularity ratings, their own confidence in the institution is undermined when the justices do not care that the appearance of impropriety is in fact, being violated by them. so i would say in addition to transparency, in addition to meaningful, meaningful reform about disclosures, the most important thing is that the justices take seriously, when they look like they are in the
revive, along with trump's profile. joining me now to discuss this is ryan riley, justice reporter for nbc news digital. and he's regarded as the hardest working man in journalism. ryan, you have been closely following many of these january six cases for a while, when casey reported out this week said, he wanted trump's approval, and thought he was quote, following presidential orders when he attacked the capitol. how common is this type of defense, brian, in what role, in what role did twitter itself play in making people think this way prior to january six? >> you know, i think we have a lot of people who were inspired by facebook, where we have more of the references. that is one of the most common tools that we have seen, both referencing all of these court cases as well, as evidence in these court cases, it provided a lot of evidence. but twitter does come up relatively frequently. you know, usually, trump's
a draft version of the supreme court decision to overturn roe v. wade was leaked to the press, to a place where i work, in fact, politico. but the dobbs case may not have been the only major supreme court case to be leaked. as the supreme court investigates that monumental leak of the dobbs opinion, new york times has learned somebody has come forward, alleging another breach. years ago. the landmark case involving rules around insurance coverage, birth control. times reports as quote, in a letter to chief justice john g. roberts junior, and interviews with the new york times, the reverend robert shank said he was told the outcome of the case weeks before it was announced. he used that information to prepare a public relations push, records show, he said that at the last minute, he tipped off the president of the craft store chain owned by christian invent illegals which was winning, that was the winning
guys can get a better look at the scene right now, it has definitely calmed down out here since they initially got the call about six hours ago, just before midnight. the club posted to their facebook page saying they are quote, devastated by this attack on our community. club q also saying it was the quick reactions of heroic customers that subdued the gunman. we are still working to confirm that with law enforcement, however. but police did say this was not an officer involved shooting. we are expecting an update from multiple law enforcement agencies in a couple of hours, in two hours, including from the district attorney's office. we have that suspect has not been officially charged yet. i was just getting messages on facebook from people who say they frequently come to this nightclub, saying they are still just trying to wrap their heads around the fact that this is not a nightmare. reporting in colorado spring, natalie chuck, we will send it back to you guys. >> a tragic scene. natalie chuck in colorado
court, by the supreme courts martial. mr. schenck, who has since soft and his stance on abortion rights came forward because he felt this information about the hobby lobby case was relevant. as the new york times puts it, quote, the allegations from mr. schenck creates an unusual, contentious situation, a minister who spent years at the center of the antiabortion movement, a whistleblower, a denial by a sitting get justice, and an institution which shows little outward signs of getting to the bottom of the recent leak of the abortion ruling, or following up on mr. schenck's allegations. wow, big story. joining me now is donna lippman, senior editor and legal correspondent at slate, msnbc law and politics analyst, and author of j.d. -- lady justice, the battle to save america. also with me is barbara mcquade, the former u.s. attorney for michigan's eastern district an msnbc legal analyst. thank you both for coming on. let's start with you, donna.
congressman, denver riggleman, the ceo of the riggleman defense group, and on the january six select committee, and also author of the breach, the untold story of the investigation into january six. congressman, thank you very much for joining, appreciate it. so, relevant times to be talking about your book today, the first sentence of the synopsis of the books as quote, make no mistake, modern information warfare is here. january six was just the first battle. so what are your thoughts now of elon musk, his takeover of twitter and the decision last night to revive former president donald trump's account? >> can you hear me? >> yes, i can hear you. >> okay, just want to make sure. no, i went [inaudible] i think people should do this today, go back to the dates of january 4th and january 8th. look at the individuals i would say who are amplifying the