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guilty verdict. older, as we all are if we're lucky enough to stay alive, but also sadder, defeated, and perhaps in his own way learning that very lesson that he may not have believed when he said a variation of those words to his co-author on the art of the deal, one known more for writing than defendant trump, now convict, convicted felon trump, tony schwartz, who did not know when he partner thoond book he was working with a future president or a future felon. tony, we've had some conversations over to years, i'm thrilled to have you here tonight, welcome back. >> thank you. i was looking at that quote, which is from the art of the deal, as you said, and thinking to myself did he say that or did i make that up on his behalf. >> yeah, that's one of your life questions. >> yeah, and i don't know the answer, but i will say it's taken an awful long time to catch up with him even in the courts. he's probably committed scores of felonies over the last 30, 35 years and gotten away with every
massive state of denial, and so all the energy now is around saying that this was, you know, a setup. >> yeah. >> all the various things that he's said. but i think he is sitting in a state that really tests whatever level of mental health he currently has. >> hmm. yeah, and that is a type of stress and strain. he said in his bizarre press conference afterward, he said, you know, other people would have stepped back by now. he's wired different. and i thought, that's one of those time where is he's saying something that corresponds to reality. >> yeah. he's wired up is what he means. he's activated and he's crazed. if you look at the last month or even the last two month, he's gone further and further out in terms of outrageousness, you know? >> yeah. >> posting in a way that
obstructed an investigation. the decision is, well, to i not do it because it's martha stewart? that's wrong. >> yeah. and you knew it could upset snoop. >> well, snoop, i don't know that they had a really close relationship back then. >> wow. spoken like a lawyer. we have to really look at it. yeah, they had a business relationship. i know what you mean, though, all jokes aside that when you're a prosecutor, you're exercising unitary power in a way that's different than most of the government. people criticize congress, but it's all a blend and a mix. this d.a. bragg, like when you had that job, got criticism for different thing, and then you have to say, how much of that is in the moment and it's fine. these people are public official, subject to public discussion. and how much in the case of bragg became a pile-on that wasn't true. in other words, judgement, sure, you can debate. was the case weak, no, it was strong enough to win. was the case stale? no, it was fresh enough to win
>> yeah, and you saying the projeshgs part also is important because, as you and i were just discussing earlier, when he starts saying, oh, everything is fascist, everything is nazi, right, it's like being the first mover on that issue. >> exactly. >> and then someone else says, oh, this is so hateful, you're dehumanizing people as vermin the way they did in germany, and he says, i already called everyone a nazi. now you've got him bringing in and normalizing the speech that only is arising because his side is going that far. >> there's no question that that's true. and he will continue to do exactly that in the months ahead. >> yeah. tony, this is an interesting time to check in with you, thanks for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> appreciate you, tony schwartz. coming up, a new problem for some of the maga folks lying about the 2020 election. it turns out in court they're losing allies and falling apart. we'll discuss how the defamation accountability matters tonight, but next neal katyal.
manhattan case involving bragg and the hush payments is the weakest criminal case i've ever seen in 60 years of practicing and teaching criminal law. >> well, look, i think it's easy for people to stand outside and criticize. i didn't think an awful lot of the case until i can tell you, man, i thought it was a good case and i had trust in alvin bragg to bring it. but what changed me is when david pecker testified. it brought it all into focus for me and talked about not just how i think the substantively there was a lot there for them to move on, but how compelling it was and how important it was. and i think that for alvin bragg to look at that as we got ultimately a chance to when we saw the evidence. he saw the evidence way before us. and he's confronted with a situation which is, well, do i prosecute him or do i take a pass on it because it's donald trump or do i prosecute it
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the people who push the lies. we have seen several of trump's aides and lawyers indicted or convicted for the same 2020 efforts. others facing sanction like they won't be allowed to practice law anymore. fox paid one of the largest defamation cases in history, you see it right here, again, over these lies and other cases related continuing, including the $2 billion plus smartmatic case. it turns out lying about the election is very, very expensive and that's the way it's supposed to be. nobody actually goes to prison in defamation cases but they set a cost that's so high, even businesses that are only interested in profits, maybe not honesty, have to back down sometimes. it seems that keeps happening as long as people keep repeating trump's election lies. we'll be right back. and it could strike at any time. think you're not at risk? wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist
degree. count 29, guilty. felony charge. falsifying business records in the first degree. count 30, guilty. felony charge. falsifying business records. count 31, guilty. falsifying business records in the first degree. count 32, guilty, falsifying business records in the first degree. only two counts left. count 33, former president donald trump found guilty. falsifying business records. count 34, guilty. >> guilty. that was big news at msnbc we had our teams working together at the courthouse and in our newsroom and during the jury deliberations there was no way to know if there would be a hung jury, no agreement, or whether they'd hit a unanimous verdict. so when the jury said it had a verdict, which was just moments before it scheduled adjournment on thursday, that changed everything. everything went into motion, but of course, still no one knew what they had decided yet.
public life, you have to respect a jury verdict. it's not whether you personally agree with it or what you might have done, but you respect the rule of law and the jury verdict that's legitimate. and then the fact that we're me this strange situation wherein people find it concerning that, of all the people available, why would one party insist on running a convicted felon? which makes sense as a question that's percolating as we begin the new week. half of independent vote ears think trump should now end his presidentialed by, that republicans should offer a better, nonfelon candidate. it is the kind of low bar that almost sounds a little odd to say out loud. it also reflects the extremism that dominates today's republican party. to put it another way, there are indications that president biden is a beatable incumbent. there are indications that a nonfelon candidate would have a better shot, be in a better
because we have somebody who did something really egregious here that really had an impact on election, and i think i have a very solid case on the law. and i think he does. and i think the facts really supported that. >> i agrow that it got stronger as we watched the witnesses, and i think the prosecution made a number of smart moves. maybe the smartest of all was starting with david pecker because the stakes with so clear. and i think, david, what you're pointing to is this essential question ethat trump raises for rule of law. do you treat him differently in a way that gives him a pass, or do you make sure you uphold the same standards as usual, even though he used to be the president. and that does seem now like what must have really been on alvin bragg's mind as he was weighing what to do. >> if i understand the situation, not to go too far back in history, but the decision to charge martha stewart. and we had all the facts there and that she lied and she