it was a difficulty during the conduct of the pandemic. the virus does not respect any borders within the uk. virus does not respect boundaries. we saw this problem with the tiering approach. i think that we need to think as far as we possibly can about ways of getting a unified message and eyesight that with the massive amount of respect... i with the massive amount of respect- - -— with the massive amount of respect... with the massive amount of resect... . _, ., ., respect... i am coming onto the issue of messaging, _ respect... i am coming onto the issue of messaging, that - respect... i am coming onto the issue of messaging, that will. respect... i am coming onto the issue of messaging, that will be i respect... i am coming onto the i issue of messaging, that will be a chapter— issue of messaging, that will be a chapter i— issue of messaging, that will be a chapter i will develop but at the moment, — chapter i will develop but at the moment, i would like to stay with the issue — moment, i would like to stay with the issue of the how to interact with— the issue of the how to interact with the — the issue of the how to interact with the da in times of a pandemic. you have _ with the da in times of a pandemic. you have talked about their needs to be a structure that should be put in place _ be a structure that should be put in place to _ be a structure that should be put in place to allow for consultation between — place to allow for consultation between the uk government and the devolved _ between the uk government and the devolved administrations during emergency situations. you have indicated — emergency situations. you have indicated that what you would like is a leak—proof indicated system. can is a leak—proof indicated system. carr you — is a leak—proof indicated system. can you help the inquiry as to how that might — can you help the inquiry as to how that might be done? not can you help the inquiry as to how that might be done?— can you help the inquiry as to how that might be done? not at present. no, ithink that might be done? not at present. no, i think very _ that might be done? not at present. no, i think very difficult. _ that might be done? not at present. no, i think very difficult. it _ that might be done? not at present. no, i think very difficult. it may - no, i think very difficult. it may be that it is a contradiction in terms but that is the ideal. it be that it is a contradiction in terms but that is the ideal. it has certainly been — terms but that is the ideal. it has certainly been said _ terms but that is the ideal. it has certainly been said earlier - terms but that is the ideal. it has certainly been said earlier in - terms but that is the ideal. it has certainly been said earlier in the | certainly been said earlier in the inquiry— certainly been said earlier in the inquiry that government leaks. it inquiry that government leaks. [it also. inquiry that government leaks. also. but inquiry that government leaks. it also. but what you don't typically have in government is a mixture of politicians who are by definition adversarial to each other in wanting to remove each other from office adversarial to each other in wanting to remove each otherfrom office in the sense they belong to different parties. that is one of the complexities that the pandemic threw up. complexities that the pandemic threw u -. complexities that the pandemic threw u . _ , ., , complexities that the pandemic threw u -. , ., , , complexities that the pandemic threw up. the questions being discussed in those up. the questions being discussed in these meetings _ up. the questions being discussed in those meetings were _ up. the questions being discussed in those meetings were not _ up. the questions being discussed in those meetings were not about - up. the questions being discussed in those meetings were not about that| those meetings were not about that sort of— those meetings were not about that sort of thing, they were about dates and times— sort of thing, they were about dates and times and what should be used, whether— and times and what should be used, whether we — and times and what should be used, whether we should use masks. there was not _ whether we should use masks. there was not a _ whether we should use masks. there was not a necessity or scope for that in— was not a necessity or scope for that in those meetings. i was not a necessity or scope for that in those meetings.- was not a necessity or scope for that in those meetings. i think what ha--ened that in those meetings. i think what happened was _ that in those meetings. i think what happened was that _ that in those meetings. i think what happened was that every _ that in those meetings. i think what happened was that every topic - happened was that every topic rapidly became political because of course, different constituencies in different parts of the country had different parts of the country had different views about things. that is the sad reality. i am not saying this problem is insoluble, i am just saying within the time that we had available, it was hard to manage. i thought the best way to manage it, given the urgency, was to try to take the heat out of things, to get a cdl to bring people together to explain and conciliate and if necessary, i would come in and talk to people as much as i could. irate to people as much as i could. we have heard _ to people as much as i could. we have heard that, mrjohnson. i wonder— have heard that, mrjohnson. i wonder if— have heard that, mrjohnson. i wonder if i_ have heard that, mrjohnson. i wonder if i could have this e—mail to chris _ wonder if i could have this e—mail to chris witty and it relates to a meeting — to chris witty and it relates to a meeting on the 14th of march. there was a _ meeting on the 14th of march. there was a meeting on the 14th of march involving _ was a meeting on the 14th of march involving yourself, the secretary of state _ involving yourself, the secretary of state for _ involving yourself, the secretary of state for health and social care, the cmo, — state for health and social care, the cmo, csa and other senior officials — the cmo, csa and other senior officials. there was no da presence at this— officials. there was no da presence at this meeting so no one from scotland. — at this meeting so no one from scotland, wales or northern ireland. it discussed the need for a signed off package on shielding the vulnerable and elderly. it was noted the position on when to implement this package would be based on advice _ this package would be based on advice from the cmo and the csa. the advice _ advice from the cmo and the csa. the advice was _ advice from the cmo and the csa. the advice was to include how to handle the da _ advice was to include how to handle the da you — advice was to include how to handle the da. you can see that in respect to the _ the da. you can see that in respect to the particular documents at the very last _ to the particular documents at the very last entry on number one. what did you _ very last entry on number one. what did you understand or what do you understand by the phrase, how to handle _ understand by the phrase, how to handle the — understand by the phrase, how to handle the da is? i understand by the phrase, how to handle the da is?— handle the da is? i think the inuui handle the da is? i think the inquiry will _ handle the da is? i think the inquiry will know— handle the da is? i think the inquiry will know very - handle the da is? i think the inquiry will know very well i handle the da is? i think the l inquiry will know very well that handle the da is? i think the - inquiry will know very well that the context of this e—mail within the timetable of covid—i9. context of this e-mail within the timetable of covid-19._ context of this e-mail within the | timetable of covid-19.- it context of this e-mail within the i timetable of covid-19.- it is timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is cominu timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is coming the — timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is coming the very — timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is coming the very day _ timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is coming the very day in _ timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is coming the very day in the - timetable of covid-19. indeed. it is coming the very day in the early i coming the very day in the early afternoon of the very day when we realised that we are behind in the curve and we have to take very urgent action. so what this e—mail reflects is the view of my private secretary that we have got to get onto them as fat as possible. what onto them as fat as possible. what is meant, onto them as fat as possible. what is meant. how _ onto them as fat as possible. what is meant, how to _ onto them as fat as possible. what is meant, how to handle _ onto them as fat as possible. what is meant, how to handle them? you were _ is meant, how to handle them? you were there — is meant, how to handle them? you were there at the meeting and this meeting _ were there at the meeting and this meeting concluded with action points and it— meeting concluded with action points and it is— meeting concluded with action points and it is the first action point. welt, — and it is the first action point. welt, the _ and it is the first action point. well, the question would have been, who to ring, how to set the ball rolling, how to bring people together. rolling, how to bring people touether. ., rolling, how to bring people together-— together. earlier on in your evidence — together. earlier on in your evidence yesterday, - together. earlier on in your evidence yesterday, you i together. earlier on in your i evidence yesterday, you were together. earlier on in your - evidence yesterday, you were asked about _ evidence yesterday, you were asked about mass — evidence yesterday, you were asked about mass gatherings. i think it would _ about mass gatherings. i think it would be — about mass gatherings. i think it would be fair to say that broadly, you accepted it had been the wrong call to— you accepted it had been the wrong call to allow mass gatherings to go ahead _ call to allow mass gatherings to go ahead is— call to allow mass gatherings to go ahead. is that correct? i call to allow mass gatherings to go ahead. is that correct?— call to allow mass gatherings to go ahead. is that correct? i think what i said was that _ ahead. is that correct? i think what i said was that the _ ahead. is that correct? i think what i said was that the advice _ ahead. is that correct? i think what i said was that the advice on - ahead. is that correct? i think what i said was that the advice on mass | i said was that the advice on mass gatherings was that, it was paradoxical in the sense that it was counterintuitive because the scientific advice was they were banning mass gatherings would be worse because you would drive people into smaller locations, pubs and so on, where the transmission would be even higher. that on, where the transmission would be even higher-— even higher. that was the logic. chris witty _ even higher. that was the logic. chris witty described _ even higher. that was the logic. chris witty described it - even higher. that was the logic. chris witty described it as - chris witty described it as technically correct but logically incoherent to the general public. well, _ incoherent to the general public. welt, i_ incoherent to the general public. well, i think that it was put to me that it was logically coherent in the sense that we wanted to do what we could to reduce transmission and it was put to me that banning mass gatherings itself would not really help for the reason i have given. can i have the document which is a whatsapp — can i have the document which is a whatsapp message with yourself dated the iith _ whatsapp message with yourself dated the 11th of the third 2020. as we can see, — the 11th of the third 2020. as we can see, it— the 11th of the third 2020. as we can see, it reads, i spoke to chris witty— can see, it reads, i spoke to chris wittv at— can see, it reads, i spoke to chris witty at length about your concerns about _ witty at length about your concerns about the _ witty at length about your concerns about the proms tomorrow getting overcompensated. he things there is a simple _ overcompensated. he things there is a simple way describing what we want people _ a simple way describing what we want people to _ a simple way describing what we want people to do in the future based on from a _ people to do in the future based on from a monday, if you're ill, stay home _ from a monday, if you're ill, stay home he — from a monday, if you're ill, stay home he is— from a monday, if you're ill, stay home. he is going to make sure that cobra _ home. he is going to make sure that cobra we _ home. he is going to make sure that cobra we are — home. he is going to make sure that cobra we are in a good position. he things— cobra we are in a good position. he things the _ cobra we are in a good position. he things the scots are going soft on mass _ things the scots are going soft on mass gatherings and that nicola has decided _ mass gatherings and that nicola has decided she definitely ones to move on some _ decided she definitely ones to move on some totemic cancellations. the reason _ on some totemic cancellations. the reason i _ on some totemic cancellations. the reason i flagged this up is, this is been _ reason i flagged this up is, this is been used — reason i flagged this up is, this is been used as a possible reason for scotland _ been used as a possible reason for scotland just doing things differently. would it be fair to say that in _ differently. would it be fair to say that in fact, in retrospect, the correct — that in fact, in retrospect, the correct catt _ that in fact, in retrospect, the correct call was to call of those gatherings and to send the correct signat— gatherings and to send the correct signal to— gatherings and to send the correct signal to the public that this was an important thing and everybody had to be very— an important thing and everybody had to be very careful about their health — to be very careful about their health |_ to be very careful about their health. .. ., to be very careful about their health. ., ., . ., . health. i cannot say how much of a difference it _ health. i cannot say how much of a difference it would _ health. i cannot say how much of a difference it would have _ health. i cannot say how much of a difference it would have made - health. i cannot say how much of a difference it would have made thatj difference it would have made that stage was up what i have tried to tell you is the reasons why we at a very early stage in our understanding of the pandemic, had gone for one option and what you have clearly got here, for what we thought as sound reasons, what you have a scotland using its prerogatives to do something different. whatever the rights and wrongs of the epidemiology, you have out divergence of approach. what i out divergence of approach. what i am askin: out divergence of approach. what i am asking you _ out divergence of approach. what i am asking you is — out divergence of approach. what i am asking you is retrospective. - out divergence of approach. what i | am asking you is retrospective. the risk is, in am asking you is retrospective. the risk is. in the _ am asking you is retrospective. tie: risk is, in the end, you am asking you is retrospective. ti2 risk is, in the end, you start to undermine public understanding. the inuui undermine public understanding. the inquiry has heard that and understands it but what i am asking you to _ understands it but what i am asking you to reflect upon is retrospectively, was that the right catt? _ retrospectively, was that the right call? |_ retrospectively, was that the right call? .. ., retrospectively, was that the right call? ., . . , call? i cannot say. it certainly was not helpful— call? i cannot say. it certainly was not helpful throughout _ call? i cannot say. it certainly was not helpful throughout was - call? i cannot say. it certainly was not helpful throughout was having different messages. that not helpful throughout was having different messages.— not helpful throughout was having different messages. that is exactly the matter i _ different messages. that is exactly the matter i am _ different messages. that is exactly the matter i am coming _ different messages. that is exactly the matter i am coming onto. - different messages. that is exactly the matter i am coming onto. thel the matter i am coming onto. the issue _ the matter i am coming onto. the issue of— the matter i am coming onto. the issue of differential messaging is one which— issue of differential messaging is one which has peppered your evidence so far _ one which has peppered your evidence so far in— one which has peppered your evidence so far. in your statement, page 30, paragraph _ so far. in your statement, page 30, paragraph one to six, it says, tooking — paragraph one to six, it says, looking back, we should have thought much _ looking back, we should have thought much harder about illegal basis for the measures proposed. there is a respectable argument we should have used civil— respectable argument we should have used civil contingencies legislation rather— used civil contingencies legislation rather than public health by allowing for at least the appearance of a divergent approach between the uk. of a divergent approach between the uk we _ of a divergent approach between the uk. we were risking considerable public— uk. we were risking considerable public confusion and frustration when _ public confusion and frustration when clarity of message was crucial. given, _ when clarity of message was crucial. given. as _ when clarity of message was crucial. given. as you— when clarity of message was crucial. given, as you have already identified, the prerogative of devolved administrations, in particular scotland, where health is a devotved — particular scotland, where health is a devolved matter in scotland, where scottand _ a devolved matter in scotland, where scotland has access to its own data, its own _ scotland has access to its own data, its own government, its own cmo, its own d _ its own government, its own cmo, its own d cmo, _ its own government, its own cmo, its own d cmo, and it has, i suppose, the best— own d cmo, and it has, i suppose, the best view on what is happening in its _ the best view on what is happening in its own— the best view on what is happening in its own area, the spread of covid-i9 _ in its own area, the spread of covid—19 between the scottish islands— covid—19 between the scottish islands and london. are your comments fair or proper? my comments on? is— comments fair or proper? my comments on? is your— comments fair or proper? my comments on? is your comment that the appearance of divergence between the various— appearance of divergence between the various parts of the uk were risking public— various parts of the uk were risking public confusion and frustration? obviousty— public confusion and frustration? 0bviously that is for the inquiry to obviously that is for the inquiry to decide but i think i was, look, i really grateful to you for raising this but i was worried that there was a continual distance of messaging and i was worried that would do two things. it would confuse people and in the end, it would undermine people buzz my confidence in the message. one other of these points had to be right, which one was it? i of these points had to be right, which one was it?— of these points had to be right, which one was it? i have two issues left. first which one was it? i have two issues left- first of— which one was it? i have two issues left. first of all— which one was it? i have two issues left. first of all the _ which one was it? i have two issues left. first of all the stay _ which one was it? i have two issues left. first of all the stay alert - left. first of all the stay alert message. you say clarity and consistency were important, you are sensitive _ consistency were important, you are sensitive to — consistency were important, you are sensitive to this, that the messaging was so important and you are concerned that people found it hard to _ are concerned that people found it hard to follow. the fact was, the message — hard to follow. the fact was, the message was, stay—at—home, protect the nhs — message was, stay—at—home, protect the nhs and _ message was, stay—at—home, protect the nhs and save lives. it was saved by the _ the nhs and save lives. it was saved by the uk _ the nhs and save lives. it was saved by the uk government by itself to stay alert — by the uk government by itself to stay alert. did you have any communications with the devolved administration to say, we are going to change _ administration to say, we are going to change it? i administration to say, we are going to change it?— to change it? i think the previous council for _ to change it? i think the previous council for the _ to change it? i think the previous council for the welsh _ to change it? i think the previous council for the welsh bereaved i council for the welsh bereaved families indicated that there had been a consultation about that. if i may put this to you, if there was such— may put this to you, if there was such a _ may put this to you, if there was such a meeting and conversations were _ such a meeting and conversations were had, — such a meeting and conversations were had, why was consistency of messaging — were had, why was consistency of messaging not an issue when the uk government decided to change its advice. _ government decided to change its advice, but the other three devolved administrations did not?— administrations did not? perhaps i could ut administrations did not? perhaps i could put it _ administrations did not? perhaps i could put it this _ administrations did not? perhaps i could put it this by, _ administrations did not? perhaps i could put it this by, the _ administrations did not? perhaps i could put it this by, the pandemicl could put it this by, the pandemic changed and the virus changed and we had to change our response. i think the problem was that we would find sometimes that there was a difference in message. i don't want to make too much heady weather of this but sometimes it was a problem. that brings me to my last point but before _ that brings me to my last point but before i_ that brings me to my last point but before i leave the issue of stay alert. — before i leave the issue of stay alert. a — before i leave the issue of stay alert, a professor has given evidence _ alert, a professor has given evidence to this inquiry that the phrase — evidence to this inquiry that the phrase was so bad because it told you to _ phrase was so bad because it told you to worry and did not tell you what _ you to worry and did not tell you what to — you to worry and did not tell you what to do _ you to worry and did not tell you what to do. he described it as the worst— what to do. he described it as the worst combination and i would respectfully allow you to reflect upon _ respectfully allow you to reflect upon that. if i can take you on to my final— upon that. if i can take you on to my final point, and it is in relation _ my final point, and it is in relation to a report, an expert report— relation to a report, an expert report which has been heard detail of this— report which has been heard detail of this inquiry by professor ilse henderson and it is about confusing messages — henderson and it is about confusing messages. you have said in your evidence — messages. you have said in your evidence that messaging was incredibly important, messaging was the most _ incredibly important, messaging was the most important tool we had to deal with— the most important tool we had to deal with the virus. i don't wish to deprecate — deal with the virus. i don't wish to deprecate the importance of messaging. at the heart of what you were doing. — messaging. at the heart of what you were doing, you thought messaging was a _ were doing, you thought messaging was a vitally, a critical tool in relation — was a vitally, a critical tool in relation to— was a vitally, a critical tool in relation to the pandemic. if we can have _ relation to the pandemic. if we can have before — relation to the pandemic. if we can have before us inquiry number 269 372, the _ have before us inquiry number 269 372, the report by professor henderson, page 49. our this is about advice given by the uk government _ our this is about advice given by the uk government over - the uk government over communications with the public. about _ communications with the public. about halfway down the paragraph it starts _ about halfway down the paragraph it starts an _ about halfway down the paragraph it starts an analysis of the tax prepared _ starts an analysis of the tax prepared speeches, and eyes of the text prepared speeches throughout 2020 so _ text prepared speeches throughout 2020 so that those speaking on behalf — 2020 so that those speaking on behalf of — 2020 so that those speaking on behalf of the uk government did an incomplete job of outlining the territorial scope of the data, information or guidance. in the first— information or guidance. in the first months there was almost no mention— first months there was almost no mention of— first months there was almost no mention of devolved administrations or the _ mention of devolved administrations or the first _ mention of devolved administrations or the first ministers. there was little _ or the first ministers. there was little attempt to outline what applied uk wide and what applied to england _ applied uk wide and what applied to england. rephrase this country was used this— england. rephrase this country was used this much to mean england, the uk or— used this much to mean england, the uk or great— used this much to mean england, the uk or great britain. it goes on to -ive uk or great britain. it goes on to give an— uk or great britain. it goes on to give an instance. given by your own admission— give an instance. given by your own admission the critical nature of the communications and the fact that messaging was the most important tool the _ messaging was the most important tool the uk had to deal with the virus. _ tool the uk had to deal with the virus. was — tool the uk had to deal with the virus, was sufficient consideration given— virus, was sufficient consideration given by— virus, was sufficient consideration given by the uk commence to ensure that the _ given by the uk commence to ensure that the geographical, the dress tissue _ that the geographical, the dress tissue under the guidance was made clear? _ tissue under the guidance was made clear? i_ tissue under the guidance was made clear? , , ,
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