when keir starmer was first leader, a lot of people did not in anyway think that in one term he could turn the labour party around. they were talking in terms of him doing five years, losing the next election and someone also come in and we don't know who that will be. for them, it has been a big surprise as well. they actually lost the hartlepool by—election, it was an absolute low point for labour and then things turned around. lots of people say keir starmer has been a lucky leader, it has come at the same time that in scotland the snp have had their own troubles, socks —— scotland is a country where labour used to rule and then were absolutely decimated at the last election and went down to one seat. all of thing —— these things have a line for him but he will say he has change the party from the party it was underjeremy corbyn. the change the party from the party it was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it was _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it was in - was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it was in the - the labour party felt it was in the ascendancy and had a huge amount of influence, but it feels like sir keir starmer has moved it away from that. g keir starmer has moved it away from that. �* ., ., , .,, keir starmer has moved it away from that. ., ., , ., , that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy. _ that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that _ that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that is _ that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that is the - that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that is the line l him of hypocrisy, that is the line the conservatives have taken. when he went for the leadership of the labour party afterjeremy corbyn stood down, he talked about some very left—wing policies. he wanted to appeal to the membership as it was then. now of course lots of those policies have been ditched, which is why using a —— accused by some of not having any concrete views but he has taken the party much more towards the left centre of british politics. there is a question about who will be in the labour party after the general election in terms of mps, there are still some of those, jeremy corbyn standing as an independent, but there are still others who still subscribe to thejeremy corbyn agenda. subscribe to the jeremy corbyn a . enda. ~ . subscribe to the jeremy corbyn aenda. ~ ., ., subscribe to the jeremy corbyn aaenda. ~ . ., ., , ., agenda. what about the conservative pa ? i agenda. what about the conservative party? i can — agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote _ agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote talking _ agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote talking with - agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote talking with you | party? i can remote talking with you and colleagues when borisjohnson became prime minister about he ruthlessly drove out some of the more moderate mps within the conservative party and people were saying he has taken control and reshape the party in his own image. some of these matters are now settled. it does not feel like everything with me conservative party is settled. it everything with me conservative party is settled.— party is settled. it certainly isn't. party is settled. it certainly isn't- at — party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the _ party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the time _ party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the time of - party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the time of the - party is settled. it certainly| isn't. at the time of the last election, brexit, it was off the back of brexit and we had that impasse in parliament and nothing was moving and we had been stuck for three years with theresa may trying to get a deal through so there was this impetus behind him to try and move things forward. plus he was up againstjeremy corbyn, over quite a lot of conservatives, they may be were knocking on borisjohnson but they felt they could not vote for jeremy corbyn, so he did have that in his favour which slightly inflated his majority. a lot of previous tory mps have said to me, we should be looking at the 2017 general election and comparing this with that rather than 2019 because these were exceptional circumstances. critics of boris johnson will say he came in i did not know what he wanted to do with that power but covid did hit and that power but covid did hit and that did throw things for two years. but i think the whole partygate is such an issue that people still talk about and conservatives who are now fighting for their seats say that is when a lot of people stopped listening to the tory party and they have not gone back to them. itrailien have not gone back to them. when eo - le have not gone back to them. when peeple step _ have not gone back to them. when people stop listening _ have not gone back to them. when people stop listening to _ have not gone back to them. when people stop listening to a - have not gone back to them. when people stop listening to a political party, it is a long road to get them to tune back in. liz party, it is a long road to get them to tune back in.— party, it is a long road to get them to tune back in. liz truss then came in. to tune back in. liz truss then came in- friends — to tune back in. liz truss then came in- friends of _ to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi _ to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi sunak _ to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi sunak would - to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi sunak would sayj in. friends of rishi sunak would say if there is a defeat at the general election, we don't know that yet, but if there is they would say that those seeds were planted quite a long time ago, that this is not down to him. there are many in the party on the right of the party who absolutely want him to own that defeat if it comes and also the fact that the campaign has not been extremely successful for them. there have been so many faltering points along the way. but that argument is all to come and i'm sure it will come after the general election. thank you very much indeed. we are putting the prime ministerial debate in context. it begins at 8:15pm at nottingham trent university, hosted by mishal husain. keir starmer, the leader of labour party, and prime minister rishi sunak will be on stage. we know from the messages we have been receiving that lots of you have been receiving that lots of you have questions about the formats these tv debates take and how it is settled and where the questions come from and who picks the audience and so on. i have been putting some of those questions to the director of journalism, jonathan munro. irate those questions to the director of journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk to _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk to the _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk to the parties - our colleagues talk to the parties and press representatives over time. if they choose not to take part, that means they would not be a head—to—head debate of this sort. with the seven hand—out we did earlier in the campaign, some of the leaders do put up a deputy, a party spokesman and that is fine but for this programme, it has to be read two people who could be by minister of this country and there are only two who can do that. they cannot send a stand in. this two who can do that. they cannot send a stand in.— send a stand in. as i have mentioned, _ send a stand in. as i have mentioned, hosting - send a stand in. as i have i mentioned, hosting tonight send a stand in. as i have - mentioned, hosting tonight is send a stand in. as i have _ mentioned, hosting tonight is mishal husain. at this stage in proceedings, just an hour away from the beginning of the debate, she will be going over her preparations when last time and a little while ago, we spoke to her. here we are on the stage where the debate is about to take place. tell us how it will pan out. irate debate is about to take place. tell us how it will pan out.— us how it will pan out. we have turned this _ us how it will pan out. we have turned this corner _ us how it will pan out. we have turned this corner of _ us how it will pan out. we have turned this corner of the - us how it will pan out. we have . turned this corner of the university campus into our debate stage and you want standing just between the two podiums with the leaders will be. i will be in front of them and then the audience behind and you will see quite a simple format really, a simple form of unfiltered democracy, if you like, where one by one, the question is will stand and put their questions to both the leaders and it will be myjob to nudge them back to the question if necessary at times, to move the debate on, because obviously we want to cover as many topics is possible, we are in this crucial period of the election campaign. in nine days, one of these men will be prime minister. that is the aim, to get through a broad range of topics and allow those in the audience to have their say and ultimately to see how these two men respond. their words of course and also their tone and their demeanour with each other. the also their tone and their demeanour with each other.— with each other. the spin room at the bbc by _ with each other. the spin room at the bbc by ministerial _ with each other. the spin room at the bbc by ministerial debate - with each other. the spin room at the bbc by ministerial debate is l the bbc by ministerial debate is full of journalists the bbc by ministerial debate is full ofjournalists but increasingly there are senior politicians as well. let's speak to one of them, john usher —— jonathan ashworth of the labour party. this john usher -- jonathan ashworth of the labour party-— the labour party. this is the final debate, i have _ the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been _ the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been doing - the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been doing all- the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been doing all of. debate, i have been doing all of these... t debate, i have been doing all of these... ,, debate, i have been doing all of these... i. .,, ~ these... i saw you last week in york. these... i saw you last week in york- you _ these... i saw you last week in york. you certainly _ these... i saw you last week in york. you certainly did. - these. .. i saw you last week in york. you certainly did. i - these... i saw you last week in york. you certainly did. i have| these... i saw you last week in - york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we are _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we are now - york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we are now in - track of it all but we are now in the endgame. and the country is facing a big choice, continue with giving route —— rishi sunakfive more years, continuing ia years of failure or turning the page and that is what this is about. by, failure or turning the page and that is what this is about. a, lot failure or turning the page and that is what this is about.— is what this is about. a lot of the olls sa is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a done _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a done deal. - is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a done deal. i - is what this is about. a lot of the | polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any _ polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any of — polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any of these _ polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any of these opinion - polls say it is a done deal. i don'tl believe any of these opinion polls. some people have cassidy post over but people that matters is onjuly the ath and if people want change, they have two vote for it onjuly they have two vote for it onjuly the ath. it they have two vote for it on july the ath. , ., , they have two vote for it on july the ath. ,., , , ., ., ., the ath. it sounds similar to what ou told the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me _ the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the _ the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the other— the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the other week. - the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the other week. the | you told me the other week. the labour party has been grooved about its messaging. do you think sir keir starmer will want to keep pushing the same messages or is this a chance to say something different? i think what you will hear tonight from keir starmer as he does want to change the country, not for changes sake but for the better because he does not accept that we have to have 7 million people on an nhs waiting list, he does not accept that people should be tracked out of the dream of homeownership, children going to school hungry, these are things we can change and he will be talking about his plans to change things for the better, or continue with five more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those _ more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those ambitions _ more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those ambitions to - more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those ambitions to any - more years of rishi sunak. if you i listed those ambitions to any senior conservative, they would say they want to achieve those things but it is how you deliver them and fund them. do you think the promises that labour is making is as well costed as it should be? economists have been saying this is all based on growth protection —— projections that are not definitely going to come true. irate that are not definitely going to come true-— that are not definitely going to come true. ~ . ., , ., come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 ears come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 years under _ come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 years under the _ come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 years under the conservatives . for ia years under the conservatives and that is partly why the public finances are in such a mess, as well as the disastrous budget from liz truss. i don't accept that we can just give up on growth, we can do better than this and raise living standards, raise wages, create good well—paid jobs for young people in this country. that is an agenda that we are ambitious about and we are proud of. they can only happen if we turn the page on ia years of the tories, changes possible and we are going to be talking about that tonight. going to be talking about that toniaht. ., ,., going to be talking about that toniuht. . , ., ,, ., , tonight. there are some professions where it is proving _ tonight. there are some professions where it is proving difficult - tonight. there are some professions where it is proving difficult to - where it is proving difficult to recruit sufficient british workers, for example in the care sector, and we know that many migrant workers are performing those roles. is that something labour is comfortable with, continuing to allow many thousands of people to come to this country to help with social care provision?— country to help with social care rovision? ~ . . ., , country to help with social care rovision? . . ., , ., provision? what we are really bad at in this country _ provision? what we are really bad at in this country after— provision? what we are really bad at in this country after 14 _ provision? what we are really bad at in this country after 14 years - provision? what we are really bad at in this country after 14 years of- in this country after ia years of the conservative says training people. we are not making full use of the apprenticeship scheme. we want to give young people skills and opportunities of training, apprenticeships, to get good well—paid jobs, that is one of our big priorities and it is one of the ways how we will grow the economy and give young people a better start in life. j and give young people a better start in life. ., and give young people a better start in life. . , ., in life. i am interested in how the labour feels _ in life. i am interested in how the labour feels about _ in life. i am interested in how the labour feels about legal- in life. i am interested in how the i labour feels about legal migration, overall net migration. for example you have lots of overseas students coming in helping universities, the care sector reliant on many people coming to work from overseas, i am not saying that is right or wrong but are you comfortable with that approach? irate but are you comfortable with that a- roach? ~ ., ., but are you comfortable with that a- roach? ~ . ., ., but are you comfortable with that auroach? . ., ., but are you comfortable with that auroach? ~ . . ., ., approach? we want a fair system and we do not have _ approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a _ approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair— approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair system - approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair system at - approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair system at the l we do not have a fair system at the moment. we have had chaos at the borders. the asylum system is broken under the conservatives. i know that is different from legal migration but one of the reasons why there is a much legal migration into thejobs you are identifying is because we are not skilling people. if we give them skill opportunities, we can fill the vacancies in the economy and that is a different approach than the when the conservatives have adopted the last ia years. irate than the when the conservatives have adopted the last 14 years.— adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last _ adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week _ adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week and - adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week and you - adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week and you say | adopted the last 14 years. we saw. each other last week and you say you have done a number of these dates. how do you feel about these tv moments? do you think they add to our democracy? i moments? do you think they add to our democracy?— our democracy? i think it is really im ortant our democracy? i think it is really important that — our democracy? i think it is really important that people _ our democracy? i think it is really important that people are - our democracy? i think it is really i important that people are watching these debates and engaging. the best questions are always from members of the public. ihla questions are always from members of the ublic. ., y . questions are always from members of the ublic. ., . ., ,, questions are always from members of the public— and - questions are always from members of the public._ and of i the public. no offence taken. and of course i the public. no offence taken. and of course i will — the public. no offence taken. and of course i will be _ the public. no offence taken. and of cou