day for the most part i found it i was totally zoned in that one pretty pretty quick. >> i felt towards the last hour, so that mr. steinglass couldn't move to the long and i didn't know if we needed like six book excerpts get more choice xors. >> i think get less for have been a little more with some of that, but i think i think look, on the defense end i think todd blanche rule was i heard the word meandering. >> yeah, i certainly subscribe to that. i think he made a real legal and tactical mistake by diving into people's exhibits 35 and 36. the weisselberg notes i think they are the smoking gun evidence and i think he dove into a minefield without a plan to get to get through it. >> do you think he should not have even brought those up? >> if anything? i wouldn't he like lead with it. right that's not those documents are not his strong suit. >> and i anticipated and then i tours steinglass just went to town. he really he got to a plus on that bolt documents up you've got weisselberg's handwriting on the documents, laying out the scheme, the $420,000 you got mcconney on a separate document number 36, with his handwriting, parroting the same scheme and just so we have a trifecta on 35, you got cohen's handwriting, two and one thing that steinglass seemed to drill in on was he was making fun of todd blanche. >> that was kinda the tone that he tried to adopt the whole time, but he was saying this idea that toddler and she's arguing that because these documents exist, show that no crime was committed here, that no documents were falsified because you can see them. he was saying they're never be a business falsification case ever because they would just destroy them. and if they existed, they would say, well, it's not a crime that was something he kinda he looked to the committee and said you almost have to the jury. said you almost have to laugh at the way mr. blanche explained it to you you've been in there every single day. you sit the same seat from people who don't know. everyone else has to fight for a cbs's own same seat which i'm obsessed with, but i'm wondering what you make of how that sat with the jury as they're watching this? >> you've made what blanche then now steinglass kinda turned it around. >> oh, i think i think putting it all together. >> i think if it's a tennis match, i mean steinglass, just nail them. he put it over the net and killed it. and i think the jury this is a smart jury. i mean, we all look at the same jury. we see the same jury. we were there for the normal tonight with f for the questioning of the jurors, these are people who wanted to be there. they could have just raised their hand if they didn't want to be there, they would have they would have left. they've been through the whole process today. it was day 21. they're clearly paying attention this it was not over their head got this allen euro jury consultant. >> there's a lot of talk about the length of the closing arguments. have you ever come across jurors who are so annoyed about the duration that it actually impacted their votes i don't think it impacted their votes and i think since both sides, when excessively long with their closings, i think it's probably a drawer in terms of which side seemed to be a little more tedious, a little more in the weeds, a little more on extraneous information that they didn't need. >> so i think each side they did. okay. they did a good job but they miss delivering stellar closing. it's not the defense, i think did what it had to raise some questions about fraudulent intent on the part of trump regarding the the invoices surrounding the payments, but they were a little gratuitous with some cheap shots and michael cohen and a little gimmicky prosecution i think was a little more streamlined. they give a timeline laid out the elements in that actual verdict questions jurors are going to have, but the state also took a long time. so at this point it's about deliberation advocacy, and i would guess that of the 12 jurors, maybe four of them are pretty firmly convinced of guilt or innocence. and then another far are leaving in one direction or the other. and then for our waiting for deliberations to make make a decision judge, if if a jury can't reach a decision, if the deadlock, there's something called an allen charge that the judge can give to them. >> what is that? >> it's basically you know, it's kinda like looking at them you took an oath. i believe in you you believe in me a nice way. >> it's not just like putting the thumbs ms john is going. to do it nicely. now but but that's where you could do the allen charge. nice or you can do it rough i think what may very well get us to the verdict tea is i think my sean has a ton of goodwill with this jury, a ton of goodwill with this jury. >> i think for no other reason then that can who won the disappoint has been protecting the jury and the sense of like, kind to them. we'd like to go along, but if any one of you has any issue, we won't do it. and they didn't go long one day, but i'm very couldn't do it 100%. >> so he's got a lot of goodwill and the bench so can i since you have the experience here? could you tell us what a missing witness charges because that is in the realm of possibilities. i don't think judge merchan has ruled publicly whether he's going to give him missing what this charge, but regarding weisselberg, yeah just tell them what that hey, that's a huge win for the defense. if he gives him as his why i don't think they're going to give it because there's just bonus army yeah, it's gotta be a witness that's peculiarly peculiarly under the control of the people so what that would typically mean, someone's locked up you're the defense attorney. you can't. yeah. but they could get them marsha and called that block, but he but he the defense said he would take the fifth if we call them a prosecutor could give him an answer. the question. i was in the courtroom norman was in the courtroom when that issue came up and michigan said because it came up because i actually thought that the de was playing a little bit of a game with the exit agreement with the $2 that they want it to be able to get that in evidence. >> and then michigan said, well did you try and get them yet? >> he asked them that question and then steinglass was kinda hemming and harming with that a little bit. so i'm much. sean says okay, what about we bring them in? we bring weisselberg in outside the presence of the jury and we question them blanche, without a heartbeat jumped up. he's not on the witnesses list, judge. we're not ready for him. we don't ever so obvious he was he was objecting and i'm michele sun hey, miss shawn, does it. he looked at him and he said, oh, so this is the first time you're considering that allen weisselberg might be a witness in this case after michigan did that. and it was obvious he could have brought them in if he wanted. hizon uninterested and bring him in to try and say this is peculiarly under the control of the government so you get that charge, charge author that's why i don't see it. >> neither. i mean, it's in that instance, neither side wanted whilst weisselberg to come in, not to mention the fact that even if whilst weisselberg were to testify, it's not clear that he would be a witness for the prosecution. that is not clear out the fence we information. >> thanks. hop on the don't want they don't want him to come in either summation, it's too late. >> i'd say like with weisselberg, said writing is exhibit 35, judge. grasses really upset about this. it's all 0s easy, folks. they have the bird, they did that with some other witnesses. >> they made that a point, right? blanche basically made that point on a number of occasions saying the prosecution they didn't bring in any lawmakers to talk about the impact of the access hollywood tape. they didn't bring in that person. they didn't bring in this person. they didn't kind of obliquely, but they did not do it for weisselberg and i thought that was extremely notable the most ridiculous example of this was when the defense tasked the prosecution with not bringing again don junior, eric. >> it was another one because they were also people who signed is tired and arthur, i can tell you, we're not getting a missing witness instruction because we sat through at lengthy charging conference, it was not discussed. it's not in any of the submissions, not happened. they didn't like okay. >> i got your request that we have an ultimate to trial groupies right here you've been like every emotion after we did the whole way arguing about a ligand, shakespeare would do anything on sunday hours the one thing trump keeps talking about and he's complaining about tonight is that he can't use the reliance on council argument, which was something that was settled over six weeks ago when they were first making this call saying he can't say that he was relying on legal advice of michael cohen when michael cohen told him the agreement was airtight and bulletproof and now he is increasingly angry about that and keeps bringing it up, even though the judge made clear during the jury instruction debate that i assume both of you were in last week that was long gone, that was never even going to be an option here. >> well, it's such a bogus issue because pecker is already david pecker is already testified that he didn't provide the council with pertinent information. he just take a look at this. none of the background information, none of the none of the things going on behind the scenes with campaign and money than not being reported. it's just like yeah, council look at an half-hour. yeah, this is good trump knows that trump's lawyers know that and they just wanted to try and muddy the waters with it, but it wasn't like they got it a legitimate opinion from the general count. i was general counsel for the police apartment for five years. you're going to ask me for an opinion, submit all the relevant relevant, pertinent information. don't hold back information and then take my deputy commissioner grasses opinion and then hold that up as a legal opinion because it's not and that's exactly the game they're trying to pull here. >> judge, if i can if i can ask you, do you see any potential appellate issue? with the way the de has charged this case for the first time in new york history. they've essentially imported a federal campaign finance violation into a state charge. >> norman and i've been talking about this ad nauseum shocking like why? >> whenever the judge because i know are normal good morning. how you. come that well, you know, i mean, it's still is i give overall i give the de a very high marks. >> absence six book excerpts on this summation but it's still a little tricky to figure out how the i think as far as the false five business records, i think it's almost slam dunk right now that they've got trump pretty solid. i think that this summation for the de a buttoned up a lot of that. but connecting that now, what are we connecting it to? how will we know there is a ton of evidence of testimony that this was all being done for the campaign it's it's being covered up it was covered up the way it was covered up because it was an unreported cash and paying contribution. but how has that been imputed to trump yet, right? what is the actual i still have not seen the final charges to the jury. i'm going to be as a real nerd on this guy. i'm going to pee like zoning right in. i want to see where are they using willful? what they're going to be using for stay the mine and whatever they use i think that this is definitely a potential point. a lot of appellate issues, a lot of cases that are overturned are overturned on the judge's charge to the jury. basically, you gave the rules of the game two the people deciding the game. inaccurately and you've been there every day, you to say if the summations prosecutors have done a great job, but it's a little willy nilly on how they're going against that. because he is a pause about whether this case should have been brought at all. well, you know what? i think i disagree with you on that. we've had this conversation on your radio show every day, every i think it was there was something rotten in denmark that and i think there's a mountain of evidence that and i think that that the trump tower conspiracy meeting august of 2015, i think the defense summation fell really flat when they tried to say that like david pecker had not no knowledge of what catch-and-kill well, because he then used the word there, it's hundred and 30,000, 3000015000030000. judge, that he'll let me finish that. was clearly that was clear. that was clearly directed towards the campaign. i always to me going there every day, you'd have to be kinda deaf, dumb, and blind, not to see that a minute willy nilly when i'm talking like this, i can ride a bike willy nilly. i'm talking about in the context of what is the charge going to look like? how is the jury going to process it? and what is it going to look like on appeal? because there is some new ground being made. his question and all your years on the bench over a decade, did you ever have a charge that it was the first time ever you created the charge. it didn't exist anywhere else. i can give you the answer. the answer is no. well, i never had a guy who ran for president who thought that was a good idea to get some friends. >> the other. >> a lot of money so we ever we know we have we have something here that never happened since before with these laws when never used the way that we used before because they were never at least from what i've seen abused the way they were abused by this particular defendant. >> now, does that ultimately lead to a bulletproof a bulletproof far that if they do choose to find him guilty, we'll have to see. but i think the evidence was then to bring the case. i think the evidence is there that convict but will have to ultimately see if he's convicted, what the appellate division grass we gotta go about to ask you've looked in the eyes of a lot of juror bears, watching the jury's i'm sure you have. what do you make of how they've been paying attention? >> paying attention. i am i'm taking notes vigorously and it's so i'm always into the notes, but then i just like randomly look up and scan and these people are paying attention this series, whether you think norman as smart and dedicated and focused a jury, as i've ever seen in over 30 years. but never sitting above the courtroom wearing the robe judge grass. >> oh, wow. so great to have you. thank you so much. as mine. i like tuerkheimer as well. thank you so much. appreciate it coming up next. john berman's back with more details from the trial transcript later how today's closing arguments landed with voters specifically in georgia, people from both sides of the political spectrum they'll be talking are gary tuckman lives are special primetime coverage continues means pause on the things you'd love brene means go cool the pain with bio free and ban going bio free. >> green means go. >> attention former marines and family members stationed to camp plus june, if you lived or work, they can't lose you in north carolina for at least 30 days from august 1953 to december 1987, and has been diagnosed with cancer, neuro behavioral effects, had a child born with birth defects are been dying you've noticed with fertility issues are more significant compensation may be available. cold legal injury advocates now, to discuss your case, gaal 180501, 3636. that's one 800, 3636, called now, long after guests leave viruses and bacteria lingers, air fresheners at ascent, but only lysol heirs sanitizer helps erase the trace, eliminating odor and killing 99.9% of viruses and bacteria in the air sent can't sanitizer lysol can why choose asleep ever smart bad. can it keep me warm when i'm cold? 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[ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. perfect fit. >> your phone can measure you right now. i'm taylor on ios or android cnn this morning with kasie hunt today at five eastern because closing arguments once a longtime until just before apm, we're still waiting to get the final installment of the trial transcript, but what we've got is revealing enough, john berman, his back with more details. what are you looking at? >> so danya perry, who represented michael cohen, was on a few minutes ago and she was saying that michael cohen actually counted the number of times that todd blanche that affects 30, called him a liar. so did we the number we came up with and a glickman of my producer between calling michael cohen a liar that he was lying, he lied or just lie, or perjury, 78 times 78 times, kotlin said, in this is what one of the things that blanche said directly about michael cohen. he's literally like an mvp of liars. he lies constantly is lied to congress. he lied to prosecutors. he lied to his family, his business associates. he lied to his bosses. he lies to reporters, he lies to federal judges a little bit later. he said, it's it's like what people when they talk about with athletes like michael jordan as the goat, tiger woods is the goat, tom brady as the goat. these athletes are the greatest of all time, the best among their peers, michael cohen is the gloat. he's literally the greatest liar of all time. and then the prosecutor, josh steinglass, later said, we didn't choose michael cohen to be our witness. we didn't pick him up at the witness store. the defendant chose michael cohen to be his fixer because he was willing to lie and cheat on mr. trump's behalf in this case, there is literally a mountain of evidence corroborating testimony that tends to connect the defendant to this crime from pecker to hicks, to the defendant's own employees, to the documents that defend his own tweets rallies in his own words on that recorded conversation, the list goes on and on. it's difficult to conceive of a case with more corroboration than this one, i just want to point out both attorneys misu