buildup. high stakes, mistake or break, you name it. but in this incredibly tight race between two presidents, each of whom casts the other as a danger to democracy, it does seem that the cnn presidential debate in four days might just live up to the hyperbole. let's face it, how many people in america haven't made up their minds between 81-year-old joe biden and 78-year-old donald trump, and which of these two men can exceed those all-important expectationses certified by the presses? if trump did some advanced spin by denigrating cnn's moderators. >> they thought i would say, no, i don't want to do it because cnn is so, you know, it's fake news. i'll be debating three people instead of one-half of a person. howard: sometimes debates can be decisive, in the first one in 1960, richard a anybodies son had a 5:00 shadow, and jack kennedy looked young and vigorous. sometimes a good zinger can turn the tide with a tense president carter against a relaxed ronald reagan. >> there you go again -- >> i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. >> you're likable enough, hillary. howard: and sometimes it just doesn't matter. romney clobbered obama in the first 2012 event, hillary clinton was seen as the winner in both debates in to 16. both lost the election. other times things get out of -- >> [inaudible conversations] >> that is -- >> your party wants to go socialist -- >> the party is me. right now i am the democratic -- >> they'll never nominate you, joe. you know that. >> i am the democratic party. howard: it was biden who demanded these two debates with rules in his favor, a roll of the dice that may or may not pay off. i'm howard kurtz and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪ howard: the pundits are making predictions, offering add advice, denigrating the other side and salivating for the start. >> i just hope donald trump can be calm during the debate. i don't want him to be rageful, i don't want him to try to leap across the lectern and strangle him with his bare hands. >> we have to make value whattive judgments -- evalwhattive judgments about not just how many lies trump told and fact checking them, but on the things that matter most -- >> in terms of substance, trump wins if he's able to enunciate it. and without the pressure to give a one-liner and interrupting because his mic's going to be cut off, i think it works on his,s on his best interests. >> if biden goes out there and messes up, it's game over. if he walks out there and a week later he's lower in the polls, it's panic in the party. if. howard: joining us now to analyze the cover an -- coverage, mary katharine ham, now a fox news contributor, i'm happy to say, and tim hogan, democratic analyst who's worked for amy klobuchar. just a tsunami of speculation by the media, but is it possible that partisans on both sides will say, hey, my guy kicked butt? >> look, i do think this is consequential, right? it feels like a starting blocks for 2024. i don't think we'll have a jack kennedy problem. i don't think either of these guys is going to look young and vigorous. [laughter] i'm prepping for this week too. i know they're hard at work, i'm prepping to build my stamina for the amount of cringe i might have to endure -- howard: you have low expectations. >> both of these guys are somewhat unpredictable. biden was a more conventional figure in to -- 2020. now the way he speaks is tougher to gauge how that's going to go for him for 90 minutes. trump has always been unpredictable, and he needs to be temp rate and focused and on point, trump, and and biden needs to be smooth and consistent. that's not who either of them is, so i'm interested in this clash. but i do think it's consequential. the problem is that the news cycle moves so quickly, a week after that it might not feel consequential anymore. howard: i actually was worrying about that given the hyperspeak notion of the news cycle. tim, the dems say biden needs to perform aggressively. he's up by 2 in a national poll, and it's within the margin of error. because there are far more concerns including among democrats about his age and mental acuity. >> well, i think put both of these people on stage together and you're going to realize, yeah, these guys would have gone to high school together. >> 1833. [laughter] graph it's not a big difference. no rational voter is going to make a decision based on age, i don't think. but what's important for the biden campaign, this is an opportunity to show it's not a referendum, it's a choice. and like the president says, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative, and the alternative is his own worst enemy, who's chaotic on the stage. and we'll see if he's able to control himself. hose are nice wishes for him to be temper rate, i doubt that'll happen. howard: why would trump and his allies be constantly denigrating biden, he can't string two sentences together, and then suddenly out of the blue at least to me, trump says, oh, biden will be a worthy debater, when he went up against paul ryan in 2012, he destroyed him? >> they dug themselves a hole in the expectationses part of this -- howard: explain the hole. >> if we acknowledge 67-70% of americans say i don't think this guy is young enough to continue for ott another four years, so many voters have seen this. the trump campaign to some extent is acknowledging what a lot of people see, he is much slower than he was four years ago. however, that does lore the bar for him because if he gets on teenage and -- stage and puts a good 151-20 minutes at the beginning when people are watching, he might come out okay. one of the things that trump should concentrate on is letting biden talk. because the longer he talks, often the more tied up he gets. and trump will rescue him if he jumps in on him too often, i think. howard: i can see biden supporters saying it's about a letting trump talk because eventually he'll take some shots. >> i mean, both of them -- howard: but if biden is aggressive and cogent and holds his own against trump and doesn't walk into the curtains, aren't the media extremely likely to declare him the winner? >> yeah, because he'll have won. he won the last two debates in 2020, media declared it buttal polls of people who watched the debates. but what's most important is what gets criticized on social media after, what are those moments that really is stick with you. and last time trump saying, proud boys, stand back and stand by. and joe biden saying, will you just shut up, man? this was a productive interaction, wasn't it? those kinds of hinges stick out. it was very weird for trump to mention paul ryan because he had debated joe biden twice before, so why is he making that the expectations? and, yes, they set the bar low and joe biden is going to perform like he did at the state of the union -- howard: oh, but trump said he was jacked up, he was on something. >> one of the -- performance endancing drugs, what is it? an extra cup of coffee? if. [laughter] >> i don't think he was great at the state of the union, but because he did the thing and he was assertive and sort of a little too loud at times -- howard: and taunted the republicans a little. okay, so, look, they're both going to be rhode islandty because neither one -- rusty. because neither one has debated in four years. does trump have an edge, because he's constantly doing interviews and fielding questions from journal is, and biden largely avoids the press? >> i think you're right that biden often overperforms expectations. however, i do think trump is quicker right now just verbally, just rhetorically. now, that won't be as helpful because the mic will be cut off when he's not talking, but i think he has an advantage in that way. but, again, he has to to remain disciplined to some extent, or this will not come off the way he wants it to come off. howard: let me just say having interviewed trump a few weeks ago, when he wants to, he can turn very serious. some of these rally speeches have a lot of policy lately. i threw everything at him from israel to immigration. you could disagree with his answers and he took a couple of zingers, but he basically was very substantive which brings me, tim, to the question of whether or not the impact is going to -- you actually raised it, whether it will last more than a few days. can and really you talk about social media, but mainstream media, television, they're going to replay the best bites or the best moments for whichever candidate. and how much does that play on public opinion? especially for people who who didn't watch the debate? >> right. exactly, the coverage after the debate is almost as important as the coverage from the debate, and i think there's 3-55% of people who are going -- 3-5% who are not decided, who are making a decision between trump, biden and staying on the couch on election day. it's why we're doing this in june when i think it's actually good for the biden campaign, to say there's a choice here. there's a contrast between me and trump on a whole bunch of issues, on abortion, on democracy, on health care, and to really drive home that it is a choice in this election, and i think that is huge for the biden campaign. howard: we're doing the first of the debates in june not just because of early voting, but because biden's people know he has been losing even though he's come up a little bit lately in the polls, and he needs to change the narrative. he desperately needs to change the narrative, and is a good performance would help with that. but when they get into immigration, which we'll talk about later in the program, and the economy and inflation and all those issues, does that matter, or is it mainly personality? if. >> look, i think a lot of the moments that last will be personally-based. however, talking about issues on which trump trusted sometimes by large, double-digit margins, the economy, immigration, crime, he did about a 4-minute spiel when he came out of the hill last week that really stuck to those issues. he didn't go sideway withs, and that is -- it didn't have the flair of a rally, but some would argue this shouldn't, right? and i think that was a pretty decent performance that he could bring here as well. i also here the president's been going more energetically than it did in 2020, so perhaps some lessons were learned. and the thing about trump doing it at cnn, he does seem to be plague to win. i don't think he needed to do this politically speaking. he could have just let biden play through the summer, he's going into what might be a more hostile situation for him, and i think that can matter to voters too. howard: right. and, you know, he's not doing the standard prep, but he is loading up on issues, and these are 2-minute if answers, so you've got to have a lot to say. >> i'm surprised we believe that trump's not doing some real pre- howard: you think this is a speak screen? >> i think -- smoke screen? >> he has to stick to that advantage, but that's ebbing away from him, right? fox news poll it cruised to be -- used to be trump al-jazeera +13 on the economy, now it's +5. it is a chance for joe biden to press -- howard: yeah, but if you want to get deep into polls, joe biden is weaker than he should be among women, blacks, latinos. all the reasons why this is so important unless it's just a one-week story. be sure to tune into special coverage of the cnn presidential debate simulcast. our coverage begins this thursday, june 27th, 8 p.m. eastern. when we come back, pro-biden pundits say he's the victim of misleading videos by the right even when the footage is absolutely untouched. ♪ (man) every time i needed a new phone, i had to switch carriers... 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon (♪) whether you're moving across town or across the country, you can count on pods to deliver when we say we will. which is why we were voted america's #1 container moving company. book your move today at pods.com dale used to hide his smile. now... it's swishy time. he uses therabreath anticavity mouthwash for 24 hour cavity protection. try therabreath mouthwash. it's a better mouthwash! look for therabreath for kids in stores today. howard: a new controversy erupted over president biden's mental acuity after that a star-studded l.a. fund raiser when the president paused for a few seconds is and barham what took his hand -- barack obama took his hand and then, as we see here, led him off the a stage with his hand on his former vp's back. the white house responded by talking about media distortions. >> we, and i think you all have called this, the cheap fakes video, and that's exactly what they are. they are cheap fakes video. they are done in bad faith. howard: the pundits and one of the candidates debate whether this is all a product of sieve media. >> now he's even saying that all a his mishaps were fake. they say the fake news covered him in a fake manner. >> there's a growing and insidious trend in right-wing media, broadcast, print and social media. it is to take highly misleading and selectively-edited videos of president biden directly from republican national committee social media accounts. >> they're making this veried odd argument that a somehow -- very odd argument that somehow unless you show the president for an entire hour before he has a senior moment, an entire hour after he has a senior moment, that somehow if you are splicing and dicing. howard: trying to avoid any senior moments here. marry katherine, are the biden white house -- mary katherine, are they deliberately trying to create the impression that every unflattering video of joe biden is somehow distorted and manipulated? >> yeah, look, it's their job to spin this. and i'm happy to talk about whether it needs if clarification or should have more context. one -- two points. politically, i don't think it's going to work because a large majority, even a majority of his 2020 voters think he's too old to go for another four years in some polling. this is not a controversial position. so to unconvince people that's the case becomes very hard. but i think there's something more stintster happening here which is -- sinister happening which is this cheap fakes is termed to be not just misleading -- howard: just bogus. >> the government sort of colluding with media on these amorphous terms like russian disinformation was overjoys used, a plausible, real threat that they blow up. and in order to protect the american people from this threat to american discourse, which is misinformation, disinformation or in this case cheap fakes, they must, oh, it turns out shut up a bunch of american people so they can't talk about this issue. one of my polls on my instagram got a banner on it this week, even though the poll said here's a clip of missing biden -- missing context. but this limits discourse by americans by trying to protect against this sort of fake thing. howard: there was the rnc pushing out bundies torted vided video. that video of obama leading biden away was 100% real and totally untouched. it wasn't speeded up or slowed down. >> right. i mean, cheap fakes is not a term that the biden campaign invented. it was created in 2019. there's a lot of a.i. involved, you just crop a video and make it look different. but it's also an editorial decision which is interesting, we didn't show the part where trump called them clean fakes. he mixed up his words -- howard: right. >> we didn't -- i saw on fox business earlier today talking to ronny jackson, his doctor, he called him ronnie johnson at a rally. that's not his tame. -- name. it is not just one video at the ap which you can interpret whatever way you want, biden likes to stick around, take in applause. he's talking to a bunch of people, but it is example after example, the g7 example, him in france where they say, oh, he's sitting in an invisible chair. look at it from a different angle -- howard: that was a complete fabrication. but is -- >> it is manipulation. howard: but if the biden team pounds away at right-wing media can and says it's all their fault, can it make people discount any images where he looks a bit confused or frail? >> i think that's what they're attempting, and i don't think that's the right thing to do. first of all, to draw attention to all these videos -- howard: oh, yeah, millions of views. >> left-leaning advocates are doing side by sides, and i'm, like, if you think this is a good idea for people to watch this over and over again, feel free. if you look like chuck grassley on stage, we wouldn't be having this conversation. it is a bit of a rorschach test because people who are friendly will give him more of a pass, and people who are critical will be more critical. however, it shouldn't exist because he's an older guy and because people have those concerns. that is a problem for the campaign. howard: at the same time, the constant the media noise about this -- probably including this segment -- keeps it in the news, and then the danger for president biden and his campaign is it becomes a narrative, doesn't it? >> yeah. i mean, there was already a narrative around his age. i think there are a lot of accounts, you know, rnc accounts that push these clips at juneteenth and, you know, the issue is, oh, he's frozen when in reality he's just not dancin- [inaudible conversations] we would be talking if he did, oh, look at him dance so weird. howard: that's an offense, not to dance? >> exactly. it gets hyped up by accounts and media on the right, and then other media downstream pick us up. -- pick it up. howard: i remember when dan quayle was running for vp and misspelled potato, any little thing he did got plaid up. and, of course, with biden, he's 811, he has slowed down a bit, and that's fair game. 81. it should be part of the campaign. but the way in which this is being mushed together so that everything is suspect, nobody trusts the media anyway. >> i think if your idea is to tell people you're not seeing what you're seeing -- howard: that would be called an uphill battle. mar katherine ham and tim hogan, thanks so much. up next, a newsroom revolt topples "the washington post"'s next editor before the british journalist even takes the job. ♪ -so, what's the code? -it says 547. 5-well, that's not working. dad, she really needs to pee. 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