Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20120515 : vimarsan

Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20120515



voices the regime of bashar al assad has for 14 months tried to silence with batons and bullets and mortars and murder. these are men, women and children who 14 months ago began raising their voices, asking semifor change, reform. an end to corruption, discrimination. basic freedoms that most of us in the world take for granted. they spoke out peacefully and were with met with tear gas, tanks and torture. there's no more talk of peace were of reform. now they fight back. they'll not stop, they say, until bashar al assad and his regime of lies has fallen. just over 300 yards from where i'm standing is the syrian border. you can see lights in the distance. that's syria, that's how close we are. the syrian regime does not want us here, they refused our request for visas to enter syria, as they have for many months now. we wanted to come so that you could hear the voices that they have tried so long to distance. children who have lost their parents. mothers and fathers who have seen their kids shot to death in the streets in front of them. the refugee camps in turkey are well run. they're probably the cleanest refugee camps i have seen, but they're miserable places. nearly everyone here has lost a loved one. we've been visiting the camps, speaking to refugees. ivan watson snuck into the area yesterday. we'll show you his report and talk to him as well. a cease-fire went into effect on april 12th, one month ago. it's a cease-fire in name only. every day, including today, there's been more death, more violence. at least 9,000 dead in 14 months according to the u.n. the opposition says it's closer to 11,000 people. so many deaths, so many arrests, 14 months into this fight and the death toll risks becoming meaningless. numbers on a leather. numbers on a news ticker with no names and no faces. numbers that most of you don't pay attention to any more. the fathers and mothers and children here tonight, though, they want you to know their names. they want you to know that they are not numbers. some of them are too scared to show their faces, many want you to see their faces, to know their loss, to understand their struggle. there's been new fighting today north of homs, an area held by the opposition, regime forces have attacked. new images from there, a young girl in a yellow dress crying out in pain. a wounded young boy says he wants assad to die. as you watch the following videos, keep in mind the regime of assad says they are observing a ceasefire. the free syrian army, as they call themselves, shoot a rocket propelled grenade. they're outgunned, outmanned. the opposition says at least 23 government soldiers were killed today in rastan and three armored personnel carriers destroyed. elsewhere in homs, a syrian tank rolls down the street. among bombed out buildings and open fire. and at hama today, tanks rolled in and heavy gunfire ensued. we can't independently confirm what these videos purport to show. they're scenes uploaded to youtube by activists. for months there's been concern the violence will spill into neighboring countries. this week we saw some of that beginning to happen. in tripoli fighting erupted pitting residents against each other. at least seven people were killed in lebanon. every day in syria, more syrian citizens die, more syrian citizens flee to refugee camps, more syrian citizens are wounded, arrested, disappear. even in the hospitals the injured are not safe. there's no haven anywhere. we're getting new evidence tonight from the group doctors without borders that wounded people are still being targeted in parts of syria as are the medical workers who are trying to give them desperately needed emergency care. doctors without borders spoke with an orthopedic surgeon who said and i quote, being caught with patients is like being caught with a weapon. doctors have 20 work in secret as quickly as they can. the wounded are cheated in makeshift clinics, not in government hospitals where the regime looks for wounded to arrest and torture. syrian refugees have been able to find a level of safety here. they're very grateful for that. 1600 men, women, and children live here at this tent camp where we're broadcasting from tonight. it's been open since last june. many of them have been here for a year. the largest refugee camp in turkey houses more than 9,000. i've been to a lot of refugee camps over the years. as i told you, these are some of the cleanest and best run i've seen. but they are places of misery. keep that in mind tonight. if the numbers continue to grow, so will the burden on turkey. more than 120 syrians arrived just today. unhcr sent some help, small amounts of supplies, blankets and tents. but the syrian refugees in these camps could use more support and certainly they could use more hope. here is a little bit of what we've seen the last two days. >> reporter: staring at the photo of his dead grandson, muhammad has no words. grief is all he has left. pictures of the dead are everywhere in these syrian refugee camps. fathers show you their dead sons on cell phones, ask you to watch grainy videos of their children's funerals. no family, it seems, has escaped syria unscathed. who is this? >> my brother. >> in a tent she now calls home, raja shows me pictures of her brothers both shot during demonstrations nearly a year ago. how old is he? >> 34. >> reporter: after her brothers were killed, she fled with her parents and five other family members to this tent camp. her father abu mohammed says there's another missing. they have no idea if he's still alive. we had young man that cried out and shouted for freedom, he says. and they were killed just for that. we just want freedom. what's wrong with asking for freedom? >> reporter: in his arms, his son's missing child. a boy who has never seen his own father. he was born after when his father was in prison, he says. we named him after his martyred uncle. no one believes they can return to syria any time soon. no one will return until bashar al assad's regime has fallen. they will hope the world takes notice. kids have begun classes, have already learned a heart breaking lesson in the sadness of life. joining me live here on the syrian/turkey border ivan watson and professor fouad ajami at stanford university hoover institution. professor, you've been to these camps before. the people here have great dignity. they're trying to hold their head up, but they really do feel aban donned by much of the world. >> they feel -- exactly. they use the word forsaken. the camera is a different instrument and a different creature. these people want the people to bear witness to their suffering. and the camera in a way, they have this relationship to it. they are drawn to it. because in fact, they remain convinced that should the people know about them, should the people of the world see what they have suffered, they understand they're not terrorists. they're not al qaeda. many of them were telling you, trying to convince you we have nothing to do with al qaeda. we're not terrorist groups. one man told you we don't even have rifles in our town, let alone heavy weapons. so they want the world to understand them. and they want the world to bear witness. and i think they also see the camera as a way of holding on to the memory of this lost world, the world that is very achingly close. it's very close to here, but it is not yet retrievable to them. >> we've seen more fighting in the last couple days. you went across the border. we'll show you report later on in this hour. what is the status of the battle? it seems like neither side is able to get a victory. >> some kind of a stalemate. when the syrian army rolls in, they've got the tanks, the helicopters, the big guns. eventually they plow through and in some cases destroy everything in their path. and the rebels retreat. but when the syrian army retreats, then the people come back. it's insurgency counterinsurgency tactics. and the syrian government has clearly lost the support of people in broad swaths of territory. and that's the stalemate we've still got. >> there had been talk about qatar and saudi arabia giving support to the opposition. the u.s. has talked about giving communications equipment to opposition fighters. have you seen that? have they said they're receiving that? >> we're hearing about trickles of equipment coming through, perhaps of weapons coming through. but for the most part the fighters say we're not getting any help. we're having to sell our own cows and our wives' gold to try to buy bullets and guns. and the strange thing is the cost of those bullets and weapons has gone down considerably, by half over the course of the last month. i'm not quite sure why. many of them say they buy these weapons from the syrian militias. the government militias and from the soldiers themselves. which is very interesting and says something about the moral within bashar al assad's forces. >> they tell you morale is low. >> no one expected this to last so long. when the syrians looked at what happened in tunisia, it took two weeks. when the syrians look at what happened in egypt, tahrir square, 18 days later, the farrow was gone. when they looked at libya, it was a little more drawn out, but then the man was pulled out through a drainage pipe. here we are. here we are in syria 14 months later and these people have no hope. and a tie will have to be broken by the international community, by nato, by outside powers. what you have here is an irresistible force clashing with an immovable object. what these camps tell us, this trip has taught me is the bonds between the regime and the people are broken. these horror stories, the rapes, the abuse, the plunder, the burning of homes, the burning of corpses. there's nothing that remains. when the international community talks about, you know, the kofi annan plan, this is a fraud. it's all a fraud. and i think this is what this trip has made clear. >> we're going to talk to senator john mccain who is calling for greater international involvement. there are many people in the united states who tire of this and say you're throwing weapons into a powder keg into a dangerous situation. we don't know fully. there may be jihadist elements amongst the rebels. to them you say what? >> if there are jihadist elements, it's actually a great share of the blame is born by the international community which did not come to the rescue. when the cavalry did not come in, when the cavalry of the good guys of nato, cavalry of the united nations didn't come, well then people have to fend for themselves. that's it. >> we're going to have a lot more with ivan and professor ajami throughout this hour. as the violence continues in syria, some of you are asking, where is the international community? where is the united states? we'll talk to senator john mccain in a moment. he's saying where is president barack obama. i spoke to him earlier today as 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[ male announcer ] ...forbusiness.com. ♪ ha ha! welcome back. we're live from the turkish/syrian border refugee camp. this is what the so-called ceasefire looks like across syria. violence leaving towns too dangerous to live in. civilian neighborhoods have been decimated. artillery fire, mortar fire, sniper fire. so many syrians have fled to turkey. some 23,000, there's some 70,000 -- 50,000 others who have fled to other countries, lebanon and iraq. right now on the border here for this special syria deadly lies. this alleged ceasefire brokered by the united nations kofi annan, it went into effect more than a month ago. since then opposition groups claim more than 1,000 syrians have been killed in just the past month. it's impossible for us to confirm those numbers because the syrian regime won't let us in, or most reporters in. and they claim it's been broken by armed terrorists. that's what they've called anybody who's spoken out against the regime for the last 14 months. armed terrorists. here's what u.s.'s ambassador susan wright said when i asked her about that. the syrian government maintains this ceasefire was broken by quote, armed terrorists. and they say the campaign of violence against them has quote, escalated since the ceasefire was to go in effect this past thursday. you deal with syrian representatives all the time. i've had them on this program. they've said things that are not true. they've lied time and time again. do they have any credibility to you? i don't know if you can say that. >> no, they don't. >> okay. >> let's be plain. you're right. they have lied to the international community, lied to their own people. and the biggest fabricator of the facts is assad himself. his representatives are merely doing his bidding and under probably some not insignificant personal duress. words as we have said repeatedly are meaningless. the actions are what matter and the actions thus far have continued to disappoint. >> one of the most outspoken critics of the syrian regime of the u.n. frankly and its ceasefire plan and of the obama administration's response, to the crisis has been senator john mccain. he's visited these camps with senator joe lieberman. i spoke to senator mccain today. >> obviously the kofi annan peace plan has not led to a ceasefire. the violence has continued this past month. last week, though, on thursday, u.s. ambassador to the region susan rice said it's too early to call it a failure. do you agree? >> i think it's shameful. i think it's shameful to use this as an excuse for us not acting. you're on the ground. you've seen the camps. you've heard the stories of the killing, the rapes, the torture, the murder. that's a instrument of policy that bashar al assad is using to kill his fellow citizens. and somehow place any hope or reason for delay for acting on the kofi annan plan is intellectually dishonest and shameful. >> what do you want to see the united states doing? i've been getting that question for the past days. what is the u.s. doing? where is the international community? why aren't more people paying attention? what do you think the u.s. should do or the international community should do? >> first of all, lead. where's the president of the united states? when's the last time the president of the united states talked to the american people about how terrible this situation is? and also, by the way, the fact that from a national security standpoint, a removal of bashar al assad is a huge blow to iran. but the important thing is our advocacy and belief in human rights. what they need is weapons to defend themselves. non-lethal equipment as the secretary of state and others have pledged doesn't do well against tanks and artillery. then we need to talk with our allies about a sanctuary, a place where the government can organize, where we can train and equip these forces so we can have a fair fight. remember again, we can't stop reminding people it is russian equipment and iranians that are killing syrians in an unfair fight. shouldn't we give them a chance to defend themselves and their freedom? and finally, i believe more moral leadership on the part of the united states is called for. >> ambassador rice in the wake of the suicide attacks or the two bombings in damascus last week says it's already a militarized environment and pouring more weapons in is not the solution. >> well, the weapons are pouring in from the russians and the iranians against these people who started out as you know, peacefully demonstrating nearly a year ago. and you have seen the signs of it. i have warned about it. the longer this fight drags out, the more likely it is that foreign elements including al qaeda could enter the fight. i still don't believe that they could hijack the revolution, because these people are direct contradiction to al qaeda at least in their beginnings and their actions. so for us -- by the way, aren't we running out of adjectives from ambassador rice and from the secretary of state and others? appalling, angry, unacceptable. aren't we running out of adjectives and adverbs? isn't it time we acted and stood up on behalf of these people? so it's -- you know, i used to get angry. now i just get sad. >> for 14 months now since this uprising began, as you well know, the regime of bashar al assad has said these are armed terrorist groups. this is the muslim brotherhood. this is any number of jihadist elements. that has been their line repeatedly. but now in recent weeks, some intelligence officials are saying it does seem like there's evidence of foreign fighters or militant groups, the twin bombings last week in damascus. how concerned are you there might already be al qaeda elements in this operation? >> i think there are elements there. and i think there are elements of the muslim brotherhood. and by the way, we have found that there are different shades of the muslim brotherhood. some of them, obviously antithetical to everything we stand for and believe in. others we can do business with. but you've got to expect these extremist elements to come in if there is not a success. but i still am convinced -- i am firmly convinced that this revolution is firmly based in what all human yearnings are all about. they are the exact opposite of al qaeda. they started out peacefully demonstrating until they were slaughtered in the streets. al qaeda believes in acts of terror to bring about changes of regime. i am confident that if these people are given a chance, that you will see them go with a lot of difficulties, but you will see them go in the right direction. and i don't fear al qaeda takeover or extremist takeover nearly as much as i fear what is occurring now. and that is bashar al assad's success in subduing these people through systematic rape, torture, and murder. >> you were in these camps with senator lieberman. i'm curious what your answer was to people. i've had so many say to me where is the world? the world has been watching this happen, and people cannot say they didn't know about it. because we've all seen the videos even though reporters haven't been allowed in much over the last 14 months at great risk themselves, activists have uploaded videos of the slaughter, of the killings. people say, look, the world knows what's happening. where is the international community? i assume people said that to you as well. what do you say to them? frankly, i'm not sure what to say. >> well, you're a journalist and you have to maintain a certain level of objectivity. although it's clear journalists have given their lives in order to bring the message out of what's going on in syria. and we honor their memories. and we thank god there are brave people like them. all i can say is that i assure these people in the camps that i will go back and i will tell my colleagues -- i will give speeches, i will do anything that i can to motivate the world. and especially with the leadership of the united states which is sadly lacking right now to bring about some assistance to them so at least they can be in a fair fight. i promise them my commitment. frankly, i sleep a lot better having made that commitment. >> senator mccain, i appreciate you being with us tonight. thank you. >> thank you. and ande

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