Transcripts For CNNW John King USA 20110914

debate pinata have on texas governor rick perry's front runner status? >> there's no government purpose served for having little girls inoculated at the force and compulsion of the government. this is big government run amok. it is bad policy. and it should not have been done. >> and can the tea party deliver on this bold promise? >> look, we are going to choose the next republican nominee. >> right. >> we are not going to accept what the republican party hands us. but up first tonight, stunning evidence of why the stakes of that republican civil war are so consequential. new lows for president obama on just about all of the tests you use when an incumbent asks for four more years. the president's overall approval rating, at a new low. his grades on leadership, worst ever. and nearly 6 in 10 americans now doubt the president has what it takes to manage the government effectively. yet, another low point. on the road today in ohio, the president suggested republicans know he's on the ropes and are now willing to punish unemployed americans to keep his numbers down. >> already yesterday, there were some republicans quoted in washington saying that even if they agree with the proposals in the american jobs act, they shouldn't pass it because it would give me a win. give me a win? this isn't about giving me a win. this isn't about giving democrats or republicans a win. it's about giving the american people a win. >> let's get behind these startling new numbers tonight with democratic polster cornell belcher. he worked for the obama campaign, and our senior analyst david gergen, who has advised democratic and republican presidents. i'll go to the wall and i want to break down some of the numbers. it's truly stunning, especially when you look at how things have played out over the course of the obama presidency. this is the overall approval rating. how is he handling his job as president. back at the beginning of 2009, very high numbers. drops down. drops down. here we are now 43% in our new poll out tonight, that's a low for the president of the united states. 43% of americans approve of his handling, which means the majority of americans disapprove. that's one way to look at it. how is he handling the economy? we know that is the top issue in the country right now. again, watch this drop. drop more. and drop even a bit more. 36% approve of his economy. that is not a low, he was just below that a few weeks ago, but it's trouble for any incumbent. this is another new low for the president of the united states. is he a strong and decisive leader? look at this drop throughout the nearly three years of his presidency, now less than a majority, that is trouble for a incumbent seeking re-election. one more and we'll start the conversation. this one to me is incredibly important, especially if you think about how george w. bush lost support, they thought the katrina response was botched, they didn't think he was a competent chief executive. can president obama manage the government effectively? watch this drop over the course of the presidency, 42% now, 4 in 10 americans, just a little more than that, think he's up to the task of managing the government effectively. cornell belcher to you first. as the democrat who would be helping this democrat, an incumbent seek re-election, when you combine overall approval rating down, economic approval rating down, leadership, strong and decisive leader, managing, the american people, their grade of this president right now does not suggest he'd get four more years. >> well, two things, and let me put this in context, you know, his numbers aren't poor alone. when you look at sort of the congressional job approval numbers, those numbers have gone down, too, with the 30s now with republicans taking over into the teens as well. and approval or disapproval doesn't necessarily immediately equate to support. you know, my mother, for example, if i ask her, is the president doing a great job on the economy, when she looks around at the neighborhood and she looks at gas prices, not so much, but does she support the president? absolutely she does. another thing in that poll that you didn't point out when you asked questions about sort of does he care about people like you and does he have vision, the majority of americans still think that the president cares about people like them and he has vision. and one last point, we make a big brouhaha over the poll numbers that come out, but you put this in historical context, if you go back to august of 1983, reagan's job approval was in the low 40s and if you go back to september of '94, '93, you know, clinton's job approval numbers were also in the low 40s, so put some context around it. given all the economic angst that are out there right now, it's fair to say americans aren't happy, and the buck does stop with the president. >> the buck does stop with the president. before i bring david gergen in the conversation, all valid points. the american people like this president. they like him personally, but when they don't think he can manage the government effectively and he's not a strong and decisive leader, and that leads to a shorter word, weaker. you mentioned the numbers about reagan, i want to show you jimmy carter 14 months before he ran for re-election, his approval rating was 30%, disapproval, 55%. the president of the united states right now, barack obama, his approval rating is 13 points higher, 43%, but his disapproval matches jimmy carter as 55%. when you look especially at the leadership and can he manage the government effectively, how alarmed should the president be? >> these are very sobering numbers for the white house, and i think they send a message that's very clear. i think cornell makes some very good points, the president still has a reservoir of goodwill out there, people do like him, they want him to succeed. what we saw in the numbers is he took a dive because of the debt ceiling fight and the downgrade of our credit rating. >> and he didn't get a bounce out of his congressional speech. presidents usually get a bounce when they address the country. >> thank you. that's exactly where i wanted to go. because the big surprise in all of this to me is coming off a terrible august, i can understand why his numbers were down. however, when a president goes to a joint session, in, you know, essentially in the evening, and can command a big audience, typically a president like bill clinton got five- to ten-point jump in his numbers. here this president got no bounce that we can see whatsoever. and that has consequences as you know, john, he's going around the country trying to whip up pressure against the republicans to pass a jobs bill. if you don't get a bounce out of that kind of speech, it's really hard to put pressure on, isn't it? 43% is not exactly something you can lash people with. >> that's the challenge of the moment. can he move the dial? can he get the public to support him in this policy fight? there's another issue, i want to go back to the wall a little bit as we head into the campaign. i want to look at the map this way. you take into context the numbers about the president. here's the 2008 election maps, blue states, obama, red states, mccain. electorally, he won in a landslide and he did it among independent voters and 31% of independents approve, 65%, two-thirds of independents, disapprove of how he's doing as president. that's one key constituency. take a look at this map. look where the blue is, the midwest critical to the president's victory in 2008. handling the economy, on handling the economy, 34% approve, 64% in the midwest, a lot of big bellwether states disapprove of the handling of the economy. the obama campaign said it was rewriting the map in the west, they hope to do better this time, john mccain is not running, they thought arizona might be in play. the president in the west on the economy, the number one issue, approve, 38% disapprove, 62%. when you look at the map and the numbers, this is a much different campaign than 2008, not a little different, it's hugely different. >> can i jump back in? >> yes. >> one of the -- well, were. but, however, again, this is not like the republican brand is mercedes, if you look at the congressional job approvals and the independent voters, the republicans are doing even worse and it's worse when you tie the republicans to the tea party and the extremism going on right now. in the end it won't be a referendum on the president, it will be a choice. yes, the president is going around the country trying to sell his plan, but in the end it's the president who cares about him and who has a vision or however the republican nominee quite frankly is going to say i'm going to double down on the bush-year policies. >> i want to change the map as you jump in. cornell said he's going around the country. i want to show people where the president is going and how important it is. this is the president's travel through april. purple states are what we call battlegrounds, but he's going to the places he won last time, he's going to trying to keep this map in play. david gergen, cornell makes the point this is not a referendum. he makes a point that there will be a choice. but often that depends, we don't know that quite yet, do we? often when it's an incumbent, it is a referendum. >> it is to a significant degree a referendum, john, going back to the carter experience when reagan ran against him. when reagan ran and won that race, a third of the people who voted for reagan said they did so because he wasn't carter. they didn't want carter anymore and they took a gamble with reagan, a gamble that many of them thought paid off, of course, so there's a referendum quality about this. it's more than just a choice. we're going to see something tonight in this ninth district of new york, we'll all be waiting to see the results. if a democrat wins, i would expect that, but if a republican wins that district, which hasn't been in republican hands since 1923, that is going to -- that's going to be another straw in the wind. i -- i -- one -- what i do agree with cornell on is this, we don't know yet know the republican nominee. and you really -- to win re-election, you have to know who the opposition is. and if it's somebody who, you know, broad swaths of the american people do not think is acceptable, then the president's chances will go up. there's no question about that. but on the referendum issue right now, cornell, i think referendum is part of any presidential campaign when you run for re-election. it's baked into the cake and the president has to deal with it. that's the hard truth. >> david gergen, cornell belcher, hard truths, fascinating campaign ahead of us, we'll watch the numbers and it play out and we'll test your theories, mr. belcher, as it plays out. thanks. militants wear suicide vests attack the u.s. embassy in kabul. and next beating rick perry at the moment, well, it means being on defense. will his tea party support stay high now that his record as texas governor is under constant attack? 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cnn contributor erick erickson of the conservative blog redstate.com is here tonight as is billie tucker of the florida tea party alliance. i'm curious, will tea party voters especially stand by governor perry as they learn more and more about his texas record? let's start with the hpv vaccination. he signed an executive order that required -- required -- young girls to get a vaccine to protect them he says against a sexually transmitted disease. let's listen. >> unless texas has a very progressive way of communicating diseases in their school by way of their curriculum, then there is no government purpose served for having little girls inoculated at the force and compulsion of the government. this is big government run amok. it is bad policy, and it should not have been done. >> look, i think we made decisions in texas. we put a $3 billion effort in to find the cure for cancer. there are a lot of different cancers out there. texas, i think, day in and day out is a place that protects life. >> billie, do tea party voters want a governor or president who tells parents your daughter must get this shot? >> no. no, they don't, john. they don't mind the government maybe putting out psas about health concerns, but they certainly don't want an executive order coming down from an individual telling us that we have to inoculate our children. you know, the government puts out psas on flu shots and it's something that we all go out and take care of on a personal basis. but, no, we don't want the governor to tell us to inoculate our children, absolutely not. >> on the evening after, do you detect some peopling saying, hmm, i got to look more closely, because governor perry has only been in the race a month but he shot to the top quickly. are constitutional conservatives saying maybe we need to peel back the pages a little bit? >> well, i think there are two dynamics in this, john. the first is, yes, i think this will give some people pause and they won't lock into him if they were going to right now. they'll wait and see for another debate, but there's another one as well, i think this could have had more damage against rick perry until michele bachmann started talking about it after the debate and someone approaching her who said the vaccine caused mental retardation and other issues. and by today the rhetoric from a lot of his critics was completely anti-vaccination, including mmr shots, et cetera, and i think that discredits a lot of the conversation. it was unintentional, but it happened. i don't remember a candidate imploding so fast after a solid score like michele bachmann other than the dean scream in 2004 scoring from scoring solid shots on perry last night to today -- even rush limbaugh saying she'd jumped the shark. >> it's been a long time since we had a dean scream reference on the show. i'm happy for that. the vaccination was one thing where you heard rick santorum saying big government run amok, certainly not a label a conservative wants pointed to. another place that he came under attack, we were at a luncheon where the tea party voters in florida were still angry about how illegal immigrants get benefits from the government and governor perry was defending in texas, children of illegal immigrants get in-state college tuition and financial aid, congresswoman bachmann said no way. >> right. >> i think that the american way is not to give taxpayer subsidized benefits to people who have broken our laws who are here in the united states illegally. that is not the american way. >> you know support for governor perry pretty strong among tea party voters. when you talk to them after the debate and today and i asked erick the same question, do they need to look more closely or now that i know more about him, i can't support him, what's the reaction? >> they want to look more closely. a lot of people last night were stunned a little bit by a couple of his comments and specifically, yes, about the -- the illegal immigrants that are getting benefits, it's not about legal ones, it's the illegal ones. we believe in the rule of law. so, yeah, we're going to take a look. we've not made any decisions but there was some pause last night. people wanted more. they hoped to get a rick perry that was just perfect and they found out he's not. >> he's not. >> no. >> it's pretty fascinating going forward mitt romney who is more of an established republican wants to go after rick perry on social security, and they are looking ahead to the iowa caucuses that they want to go after perry essentially saying he's not as conservative as you think. he's not as loyal to the tea party principles as you think. listen to this exchange about immigration and border security between governor perry and senator santorum. >> unlike governor perry, i believe we need to build more fence. i need -- i believe that we need to secure the border using technology and more personnel, and until we build that border, we should neither have stormtroopers come in and throw people out of the country nor should we provide amnesty. what we should do is enforce the laws in this country with respect to employers and we should secure the border. >> but the idea that you're going to build a wall from brownsville to el paso and go left for another 800 miles to tijuana is just not reality. what you have to have is boots on the ground. >> erick, will that hurt him? he's essentially saying you're not going to build a fence, or are people past that? >> you know, to a degree, i think it's going to hurt him with some tea party activists. not all tea party activists are closed-border tea party activists. some are very much -- very free trade and supportive. you know, he's gotten the endorsement of brian sandoval, the governor of nevada, and that will boost him on the electability scale and i think things like this some tea party activists are starting to realize none of the candidates are perfect, they'll not get their perfect candidate. we'll see. i suspect if the candidates play it right, immigration will be his achilles' heel now that hpv has kind of imploded. but i think perry's going to be able to get a message that will sell to the tea party activists. >> there are a lot of people on the left who don't like the tea party, who have pejorative labels. and wolf blitzer asked ron paul a hypothetical, what if a young person doesn't get health insurance if you repeal obama care was the context and that 30-year-old gets sick, tragically sick, who pays for it? i want you to listen here. >> but what he should do is whatever he wants to do and assume responsibility for himself. my advice to him would have a major medical policy but not before -- >> he doesn't have it. he doesn't have it, and he needs intensive care for six months, who pays? >> that's what freedom is all about. taking your own risk. this whole idea that you have to take care of everybody -- >> but, congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die? >> no. >> that last part, billie, you could hear people in the audience saying yes, and yeah, should society just let him die. do you have any concerns, as the tea party asserts itself in this process, and what is your concern about comments like that on a national stage like that? >> well, it was terrible. and, john, i don't know if you realized it was probably, like, two people that did that and the rest of us turned around and looked at them, like, who said that? because two people made a stupid statement does not mean that the entire tea party agrees with that? we absolutely do not. it was horrible for that person, those two people to do it, and we wish they weren't in the room. >> billie tucker, erick erickson, thank you, tonight, we'll keep in touch as we go forward. we put some of the more provocative debate statements to the truth test. >> president obama in a stunning, shocking level of power now just recently told all private insurance companies, you must offer the morning-after abortion pill because i said so. and it must be free of charge. >> we'll look at that. plus a deadly attack on the u.s. embassy in kabul, how might that change decisions on how long to keep u.s. troops in afghanistan? just a second. just, just one second. ♪ what are you looking at? don't look up there. why are you looking up? ♪ get outta the car. get outta the car. ♪ are you ok? the... get in the car. get in the car! 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>> don't let this event fool you into believing the fundamentals haven't changed. the taliban are on their back foot. the surge forces 30,000 have taken the fight to the taliban in south. they can generate attacks like this, but they were suppressed. the coordinated effort between the afghan security forces, commandos and nato, you're seeing the future. this is what i want in 2015, a military footprint where we can support the afghan security forces when they engage the enemy. the fundamentals have changed against the taliban. the person who said this is a war perception is right. i've been there a lot. the surge is working. and we're on track to defeat the enemy. >> so, let's look at the numbers, then. right now 100,000 u.s. troops in afghanistan. >> right. >> by the end of 2011, down to 90,000. >> right. >> the obama administration's plan, by the summer of 2012, down to 67,000 and continue down from there. are you okay with the plan as it is now? >> no. i would have liked to have kept the surge forces, the 30,000, in place through the second fighting season. that wasn't an option given to the president. no one in the pentagon suggested general allen or petraeus that you withdraw all surge forces in september of 2012. they wanted to go through all of 2012, then get the surge forces out, and that's created a problem of capacity. we're doing well in the south. we've got to move to the east. but i do believe the decision by president obama and vice president biden not choosing an option given to him by the generals has been problematic, but having said that, the surge is working. there will be 352,000 afghan soldiers and police under arms by the end of this year. they're better trained and better equipped than ever. i'm quite optimistic, quite frankly, if we'll do the right things, not come out too soon, and have a security agreement past 2014. >> you say not come out too soon, forgive me for interrupting, that's your position, lindsay graham, republican of south carolina. if you listen to the campaign debate unfolding, particularly at the presidential level, that's increasingly less and less the majority view i would say in the republican party. it's sort of hard to put a perspective on it, but if you consider rick perry by the polls your national front-runner for president, listen here, he seems to disagree with senator graham. >> it's time to bring our young men and women home as soon as and obviously safely as we can. but it's also really important for us to continue to have a presence there. and i think the entire conversation about how do we deliver our aid to those countries, and is it best spent with 100,000 military who have the target on their back in afghanistan? i don't think so at this particular point in time. >> governor perry wrong? >> my advice to governor perry would be that we have a plan to withdraw our forces by 2014, we will have withdrawn substantially all of our forces, and what will be left behind will train the afghan army, provide counterterrorism support, provide air sovereignty and help embed and keep the afghan army on track. so, here's what i would say to governor perry, you're right, we need to do it safely. just listen to the generals. i've got -- you know, general allen and petraeus have come up with a plan. i am confident that governor perry, if he gets to be president will not undercut our efforts. because the one thing i would have liked for him to have said, though, is it matters what happens in afghanistan in terms of our national security, it really does, john. >> do you think he disagrees with you or do you think he's not sufficiently up to speed? >> i think what he said makes sense that we want to withdraw. we want to leave some behind, and that's -- the strategic partnership agreement being negotiated between this administration and the afghan government is the -- closes the deal against the taliban. the goal is to have some air bases left behind, with air power and special forces units to make sure the taliban never come back. i will be glad to talk with governor perry about the plan, and this is the one -- >> governor huntsman believes the same thing, ron paul believes it. more and more in congress, republicans are saying, ten years is enough, let's get out. >> i criticized the president for rejecting options and creating his own that's compromised the second fighting season. when it comes to war, i don't want to be a republican or a democrat, i want to be an american and i want to win. we've got generals that know what they're doing and to any republican or democrat who believes you can just run for the exits and it won't follow us in the future and it won't undercut our national security interests for decades, you're just flat wrong. in my view, we have a plan to transition to afghan control, and anybody who believes you can withdraw 100,000 troops and just run for the exits, ask general petraeus, general allen and our other commanders what would happen, ask secretary panetta, i don't wont politicians making decisions -- >> are they reaching out to guys like you who have studied it for years -- >> governor romney certainly has. >> is he your candidate? >> no. perry will be a good candidate for president, i like him a lot. they're talking about jobs and debts. that's what everybody is focused on. a guy like me and senator mccain, it's our job to talk about the national security interests of the country and be helpful. i'm confident that general perry -- excuse me, governor perry as president would not pull out 100,000 troops if the generals told him it would lead to chaos. >> thank you for your time. >> thank you. the senate race we're already watching is about to get a lot more interesting. plus, we'll put some of the candidates' assertions at last night's debate to the truth test. >> the republican candidates for president of the united states. . one log in lets you monitor all of your balances and transfer between accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you. even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done. open an account today and put schwab mobile to work for you. oh, we call it the bundler. let's say you need home and auto insurance. you give us your information once, online... [ whirring and beeping ] [ ding! ] and we give you a discount on both. great! did i mention no hands in the bundler? bundling and saving made easy. now, that's progressive. call or click today. borrowed technology from ferrari to develop its suspension system? or what if we told you that ferrari borrowed technology from cadillac to develop its suspension system? magnetic ride control -- pioneered by cadillac, perfected in the 556-horsepower cts-v. we don't just make luxury cars. we make cadillacs. welcome back. here's the latest news you need to know right now. poverty in the united states, at its highest level since 1993. new numbers from the census bureau put the poverty rate at 15.1%, that's 46,200,000 of our fellow citizens. and despite the passage of health care reform, the number of people without health insurance grew last year to 49.9 million, 900,000 more than in 2009. but the health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius, she sees a silver lining or maybe you call it a glass half full. pointing out in a blog post the number of young adults with health insurance increased last year by half a million. in massachusetts, the consumer advocate elizabeth warren is scheduled to announce she'll oppose scott brown. and in new york the polls close at 9:00 eastern in a highly watched, closely watched special election for ex-congressman anthony weiner's house seat in a democratic district. up next, free abortion pills? in-state tuition for illegal immigrants? we're about to put some of the candidates' claims in last night's debate to the truth test. >> ladies and gentlemen, the republican candidates -- n. ergo, you bought me a falcon. i should've got a falcon. most people who switch to state farm save on average about $480. what they do with it, well, that's their business. oh, that explains a lot, actually. 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[ falcon screeches ] but i've learned a lot from patients who use flexpen. flexpen comes pre-filled with the insulin i take and i can dial the exact dose of insulin i need. i live my life on the go and need an on-the-go insulin. i don't need to carry a cooler with flexpen. novolog is a fast-acting, man-made insulin used to control high blood sugar in adults and children with diabetes. do not inject novolog if you do not plan to eat within 5 to 10 minutes after injection to avoid low blood sugar. tell your healthcare provider about all medicines you take and all of your medical conditions, including if you are pregnant or breastfeeding. the most common side effect of novolog is low blood sugar. other possible side effects include reactions at the injection site. get medical help right away if you experience serious allergic reactions, body rash, trouble with breathing, fast heartbeat or sweating. ask your healthcare provider about novolog flexpen today. learn more about the different insulins available in flexpen at myflexpen.com. flexpen, insulin delivery that goes with you. i tell you what i can spend. i do my best to make it work. i'm back on the road safely. and i saved you money on brakes. that's personal pricing. we learned some important lessons from our cnn tea party presidential debate, one is while ron paul has a fervent remarkably loyal core following, he also has a ceiling. any chance to grow into a threat for the nomination undermined by controversial views like this. >> osama bin laden and al qaeda have been explicit. they have been explicit and they wrote and said that we attacked, we attacked america because you had bases on our holy land in saudi arabia. you do not give palestinians fair treatment and you have been bombing -- i didn't say that. i'm trying to get you to understand what the motive was behind the bombing. >> you could hear some tea party voters didn't like that. what else did we learn last night? senior political analyst, gloria borger, is here. let's start with congressman paul because he has a remarkably fervent group of supporters, they e-mail and tweet and call us and complain if they don't think we're giving him a fair shake. and they're everywhere around the country where you go, growth ability? >> no. you know, he's not even going to win a primary. he's an important part of the debate. in fact, i would argue that the debate in this campaign in the republican party has moved more towards ron paul than away from ron paul when you think back to 2000. >> in terms of troops overseas and muscular foreign policy. >> absolutely. when you heard about republicans talking about bringing our troops home, et cetera, so it's moved towards him, but on issues like that, ron paul does not carry the republican party. >> and so between the two guys at the top, governor perry and governor romney, the biggest dispute has been social security. governor romney trying to essentially say don't nominate this guy because he thinks social security is unconstitutional and he'll never win a general election. listen to this -- >> if what you're trying to say is that back in the '30s and the '40s that the federal government made all the right decisions, i disagree with you. >> but the question is do you still believe that social security should be ended as a federal program as you did six months ago when your book came out and return it to the states or do you want to retreat from that -- >> we're having a conversation. >> we're having that right now, governor. we're running for president. >> i'll finish this conversation. >> they were having the conversation and governor perry never said with a yes or no does he still believe social security is unconstitutional. he's going to have to give a yes or no. >> he's going to have to explain whether it is unconstitutional and, by the way, i also believe he's going to have to come up with a plan for social security now, because he came out in a piece in "usa today" and started talking about reforming social security. i spoke to somebody who works for him, i said, okay, if he wants to reform it for younger people, how is he going to do that now? so, i think he's now gotten himself in a position where he has to say this is what i want to do with it and answer the question about whether he wants to leave it to each state to have a different kind of social security. >> but that's a key point. it's fascinating because a lot of tea party voters, they agree with him on this. they read the constitution as constitutional conservatives, it should be up to states or individuals, they might have different views. but if governor perry appeals to them, the risk is in a general election, the more moderate and independent voters or have they switched? >> first of all, as one republican said to me, are there any tea party members who are actually on social security? because i think there are, right? so, you've got -- you've got that problem. so, i think that it is a general election issue, but it's also a larger question. lots of times people go into political campaigns believing they're going to be transformational. ala barack obama. they end up understanding that the american public is much more incremental, more making small changes, changing the way we calculate cost of living adjustments, do they want to say, by the way, overnight we're going to end social security as a federal program and let's give it back to the states. or maybe not overnight, even for people 40 and below. i'm not so sure. >> what i find fascinating about this race is the different bets. governor perry is betting the tea party which came out of no where in 2010 is ascendant and will continue to be a huge force in the republican party. governor romney is betting, yes, it has an impact but there's a more establishment republican party that has been out there in the past and it will be there next year and if i appeal to them i can overcome the tea party guys. amy kramer, she runs the tea party express, she thinks her group, her voters, her members are growing in power. >> look, we're going to choose the next republican nominee. we're not going to accept what the republican party hands us, and what people need to understand is we're not here to send a republican to washington. we want to send a conservative to washington. >> we're not going to accept who the republican party hands us. >> wow. it sounds like a threat of a third party, doesn't it? look, they were very, very important, very influential in the 2010 midterm elections for one reason, they turned out to vote. the question is do they have the staying power? the national popularity has declined tremendously since people started understanding a little bit more about the tea party. they've not gotten more popular. but we have to see whether they turn out in force in republican primaries. >> it seems like civil war, tug-of-war? how would you describe it? >> i would describe it as a civil war inside the republican party. and, by the way, if you have mitt romney win in new hampshire, you may have somebody else win in iowa, like a michele bachmann or a perry, and then you're going to have a real fight for the heart and soul of the republican party, more establishment candidates versus tea party candidates. and that's all good for one person, barack obama. >> all right. gloria borger, appreciate it. getting interesting. >> yep. and next, more about the debate. what some of the candidates said last night and the facts. >> instead of giving it to the states, let's give it back to the -- you never know when a moment might turn into something more. and when it does men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day, so you can be ready anytime the moment's right. ♪ [ man ] tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. 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[ male announcer ] if you're in a ford f-150 and you see this... it's the end of the road. the last hurrah. it's when ford's powertrain warranty ends. but in this ram truck, you've still got 39,999 miles to go. ♪ guts. glory. ram. ♪ our lively cnn tea party debate included a few statements we thought deserved to be put to the truth test, like this critique of the obama health care plan from minnesota congresswoman michele bachmann. >> president obama in a stunning, shocking level of power now just recently told all private insurance companies you must offer the morning-after abortion pill because i said so, and it must be free of charge. >> well, yes and no. let's take a closer look. it is true that the administration requires insurers to cover emergency contraception. the free-of-charge assertion, that's a bit of a stretch. insurers are not allowed to charge an additional co-pay for such services, but if the plan has a co-pay, you'd still have to pay it. the term of the use "abortion" is also the subject of fierce debate. the morning-after pill, designed to be taken days three to five days after a sexual encounter prevents the egg from being implanted in the uterus. most doctors would not consider that an abortion, but for some because of religious beliefs it is still considered destroying life. it specifically excludes drugs who terminate pregnancies up to seven weeks. how would you score bachmann's comments. free morning-after abortion pills. i think we'd have to put this one just short of the truth which makes it somewhat misleading. here is another one. texas governor rick perry trying to explain to his rivals and skeptical tea party voters why he supports a texas law that supports in-state tuition benefits and financial aid to children of illegal immigrants. >> we decided it was in the best interests of those young people to give them the opportunity to go on to college and to have the opportunity. they're pursuing citizenship in this country. rather than saying, you know, we're going to put you over here and put you on the government dole for the rest of your life. >> cnn's ed lavandera is here to help us test that explanation. on the government dole for the rest of your life. what's the governor talking about? >> it's been kind of hard to figure that out exactly, john, but it can mean a wide range of things. because obviously texas is a border state, and in many border states, this has been an issue that's long been debated. but there's a lot of different ways to look at it. a state comptroller's report here in texas kind of weighed the benefits and the costs of illegal immigration in the state of texas. what it found was that overall, illegal immigrants provide almost $500 million into the state economy here. however, when you break that down and look at education costs and health care costs, that's where the biggest drain is from illegal immigrants and on the state economy here in texas. and, obviously, critics and those who agree with governor perry will point to that and perhaps being on the dole, that's what they're talking about. >> but if it's health care costs going to the emergency room, the state picks up the tab. what's the difference whether you're in college or not, right? >> right. and that's the other issue. when you look at the education costs and specifically what they were talking about last night were the number of students that are -- the children of illegal immigrants are getting in-state tuition. this accounts for roughly 1% of the student population in texas universities and community colleges. about 16,500 students in all. if you look at the difference in the amount of money they pay in-state tuition and on average you extrapolate that out to what they would have paid if they had all enrolled as nonresident students that means that texas is missing out on almost $84 million. that's a huge caveat. because if you tell these students that they'd have to pay three times as many in-state tuition, many education experts here in texas will tell you they won't enroll. that $84 million number probably isn't terribly accurate but you'll probably hear that number being thrown around quite a bit, john. >> i bet you will hear it thrown around quite a bit. i was at a luncheon with 100 or so tea party voters, most from florida, but other places. this is one of the things that just makes them furious. most of them want to have the round them up, throw them out approach to illegal immigration. but especially when it comes to government resources being spent, it makes them furious. is it as unpopular in texas? governor perry last night was making the case, saying only four dissenting votes in the legislature. is this sort of nobody cares, it's not controversial in texas as it is with the tea party nationally? >> what's interesting is that this was passed in texas ten years ago. so, obviously, ten years ago, the political climate much different. we were in an era before 9/11 where governor george w. bush had just recently become president, was actually talking about how to extend the olive branch to mexico, trying to solve the immigration issue. all of that after 9/11 went by the wayside and the politics around this, as you well know, has changed dramatically in the last ten years. >> dramatically would be a significant understatement. we'll see what happens on this one. let's put another one to the test. michele bachmann was criticizing the governor on the hpv vaccine, requiring young girls to get a vaccine. she said the governor seeded in her view for this executive order because of undue influence. she said his fromer chief of staff was the former president for the company. >> the company was merck and it was a $5,000 contribution that i had received from them. i raise about $30 million. and if you're saying that i can be bought for $5,000, i'm offended. >> does he have reason to be offended? was it $5,000, ed? >> well, this is interesting. merck donated $5,000 to rick perry's gubernatorial campaign in 2006, just that one year alone. in the last ten years since rick perry has been governor, merck has donated more than $28,000. $20,000 was done before this hpv vaccine executive order was

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