smashing. feed you up a bit, anderson. you're looking a bit lightweight. >> i'll leave it there. >> we'll return to this another night. thanks anyway. that's more like it. kind of respect i deserve. tonight the congressman who has been called the intellectual godfather of the tea party, a man who came in second but just barely to michele bachmann in the ames straw poll this weekend. joining me now is republican ron paul. ron paul, you're the most untalked about contender today after this weekend i can ever remember. you should be getting as many headlines as michele bachmann. you nearly beat her. yet ultimately the media seem completely obsessed with her and not obsessed with you. why is that? >> i should be asking you. you're part of the media. it's the media that picks and chooses. i should ask the media. >> i thought you are. i put you on my show. >> i'm looking for an explanation too. but you know, my supporters are convinced they're afraid of me. they don't want my views out there. they're too dangerous. we want freedom, and we're challenging the status quo. we want to end the war. we want a gold standard. and they are views that the people just can't handle. they can't handle all this freedom. they want dependency and socialism and welfarism. i think they don't like to hear our views. but i think we'll make the best of it and we'll do very well. i think the internet is still alive and well. and programs like yours will still have me on. >> well, we certainly will because it's a fascinating part of the preliminary stage, if you like of the election battle. what do you think of michele bachmann? she clearly thinks that she has a chance now of becoming the nominee. what is your view? >> well, she does. her name is on the ballot. she did very well in a straw poll. and she does identify with, you know, some independent-thinking people. she does not want to be seen as status quo and the establishment. so i know her well. and we've been friends. i just disagree with her views because i don't think she is that far from the status quo as i would like her to be. and i would like this country to be. so her views are quite different on personal civil liberties and different on foreign policy. and therefore they will be different on personal liberty and spending habits as well. >> a lot of democrats are putting it about today that michele bachmann and you are threats and should be taken seriously, you're dangerous. that normally means a coded language for they would love you both to do well because it will rip the republicans in half and probably guarantee president obama wins the next election. >> well, i don't know. i'm not too frightened about that. i think i do very well with the independents and, you know, even your own station there when you do polling, i come out either first or second against obama. so i think the democrats fear me, you know, when they try to pick, when the democrat picks, we fear mostly john hutsman. that's who we fear. they never bring up the fact that i would slash into obama's civil libertarian viewpoints. he doesn't really follow through on personal liberties. he does not, you know, support ending the wars. he expanded the wars. so the progressive base has really left obama. so i think the establishment that doesn't want the status quo challenged would be most opposed to me. and quite frankly, the leadership in both parties are very supportive of the wars, they're very supportive of the federal reserve. they're very supportive of the entitlement system. so therefore both media and party-wise, they would be very, very nervous about us getting the expression of support that we have got. and they want to squelch it if they can. i don't think it's unusual. i've been used to. this this has been going on for a long time. this is nothing that is actually new. sometimes i am very pleased with the progress we're making, and when we can win a poll, essentially tied in this poll in iowa, i think it shows great strength for our viewpoints and for our campaign. >> tell me this. you're 75 years old now. you served 12 terms in congress. you've had two unsuccessful runs at the white house, and yet perversely, despite all that, you actually have arrived at a position now where your views are more and more in line, i would imagine, with many average americans. they are fed up with washington behavior. they can see that there is a need to cut spending dramatically. i would imagine most americans would begin to think that the troops should come out of afghanistan and iraq as well. this could be your time, couldn't it, ron? it might be your last chance. >> i would think we do have a very good chance. but i usually summarize this when i'm at the rallies where we have good turnouts. and i get a lot of applause. freedom is popular. people like to be free. especially when they see the failure of government. that's why so many people are coming our way, even those who would like these government programs, that depend on governments, they realize we're flat-out broke. this is one of the reasons we're getting support on ending these wars. even if they say well, we need to be over there, we need to fill the vacuum, we're afraid things are going to happen. they know we can't afford it. we have to borrow the money to fight these wars. and they're talking about starting new ones all the time. we can't keep up with this. this is very popular with young people. freedom is a fantastic idea. when you see the failure of government, we become more popular. our views become more prevalent, and we are more mainstream than ever before. and the most magnificent thing is they have understood, you know, exactly how we pay for this. we don't -- we can't tax enough. we can't borrow enough. so more and more people are understanding the federal reserve has something to do with this. oh, you mean they print this money? the money is not backed by anything? people are shocked. then when you find out a third of the $15 trillion they pumped into the economy went to foreigners, some might have even gone to the british panks. people are upset because they don't like to see the rich bailed out, the middle class shrunk and the poor losing their house. that's what they're fed up about. and the austrian free market school of economics explains it. believe me, people are waking up to that fact. >> let me put this to you, ron, because you're a charismatic guy. you did very well in this straw poll. it doesn't mean an awful lot. but it's an indicator that you is a a popular vote there. you nearly won it. what i hear about you is very experienced, charismatic, people like you. but the thing that holds you back is when you stray into extremity. they don't like the fact you're so completely opposed to any foreign aid. they don't like the fact you want to legalize heroin. many people don't like your total intransigence over any tax increase, especially warren buffett saying hit the rich harder. people don't like your intransigence over abortion, for example, where you don't believe even if someone is rape they'd should be allowed an abortion. are you prepared at this moment everyone is wondering which way the republicans are going to go. are you prepared on some of these more extreme lines you have taken to soften, to mod rarity, to in short make yourself more electable? >> why should somebody soften their viewpoint on defending the rule of law and defending the constitution? that would be foolish. i think extremists are in charge. they have been in charge especially for the last 40 years, since they've been allowed to print money at. that's why we've extended ourselves overseas. that's why we have inflation, depression, recessions, all these things. that so extreme. this idea that you have, this year our entitlements and debt have obligated our people to $5 trillion. and they think i'm extreme? i mean, this is weird. and oh, no, we'll just print up the money, and everybody will be wealthy. but unfortunately they give out the money and it goes to the wealthy people. the poor get poorer that is weird. well, it's really bad. it's bad economics. it's bad morality. it doesn't conform with our constitution. and the people know this. they're really waking up to this. and this seems to be -- most people come up to me and say what you say is common sense. it's not like i'm spouting off some extreme position. >> hang on, hang on. ron, huang on a second. >> yes? >> i don't think people are rushing up to you on the streets of america saying legalize heroin. that's common sense, are they? >> no. and in fairness to me, i've never used the word "heroin" once in a campaign ever in 30 years. though somebody in the media says we're going to interpret what he said. this might mean he would allow the states to do such and such. all i'm saying is people want to have freedom of choice, just as you have freedom of choice in your first amendment rights, picking and choosing what you do and say on tv. i just think personal choices. i mean, i usually use the example of personal choices to say why is it that the federal government comes down with a s.w.a.t. team to arrest people who drink raw milk? you know, what has happened in this country? use the drug as an example because i know how people demagogue it. but it is true there was a time in our history a time ago there was no federal laws against marijuana in 1937 and before this. this is rather new. we have spent a trillion dollars on the war on drugs, and it hasn't done one thing except enhance the drug dealers. so this idea you can take my philosophy, and i'm not accusing you of doing it, but others have. take my philosophy and say ron paul, his philosophy is he's going to legalize heroin. that is a distortion. pardon me? >> if you're such a protagonist for people's choice and freedom of choice, why are you so implaquebly opposed to same-sex marriage and a to any form of abortion under any circumstance? that's not supporting choice, it is? >> i think you're mixed up. i'm against the marriage amendment and i believe people can do what they want. i don't want the government involved in marriage. anybody can do what they want and call it whatever they want. they shouldn't force their will on other people. on abortion, i just recognition as a physician and scientist that life does exist require to birth there is a legal right to it and there is a biological definition of it. and most people don't think about it, that if you say the woman has a right to do what she wants with her body and what is in her body, that means that an eight-pound baby a month before birth can be destroyed and the doctor be paid for it. there is something awfully bizarre about a society that says oh, that's okay because it's a woman's body. and a every argument for all abortion endorses the principle that you can take that life and abort it and kill it. and i had to witness this. it's very disturbing. so i think that somebody has to speak for the meek and the small, and they do have legal rights. if you're in a car isn't and a woman's pregnant and her baby dies, you're -- this is homicide. you've committed a very serious crime. you killed a life. so this whole thing that is simple to woman's right to do what she wants with her own body. no. you have to deal with the fact -- you have to decide is there a real life there? and there is a real life there. i'm liable as a physician. if a woman comes in and is a week pregnant or nine months pregnant, if i do something wrong, rightfully so i can be liable for injuring the fetus. so if i give her the wrong medication, i'm liable for this. to pretend that life doesn't exist, that's like putting blinders on. and i don't talk a whole lot about it. but i've made the emphasis the other day that if you truly care about liberty, you to understand life. because how can i defend any individual's right to lead their own life as they choose and even do dumb things and drink raw milk or whatever they want to do, at the same time say that life is not precious? and we can throw away a life even if it weighs eight pounds because it's within the woman's body. i believe in property rights. i believe that a baby in a crib deserves protection, even though i honor property. and a house is our castle. but nobody, nobody would say oh, a woman after the baby's born we can kill it. and today we have this -- all these abortions. but if a young girl is in a desperate situation and she happens to deliver her baby and kills it, she is arrested immediately. but if she had done it a day before, there was no crime and the doctor gets paid money. even if you divorce this all from the law and enforcement of law, but morality. our society has to decide whether that is morally right or wrong in dealing with this. i have high respect for life. therefore i have high respect for liberty. and it's hard to separate the two. >> you've made your point very forcefully, as always. with lots of people who vehemently disagree with you. but that is the beauty of a democracy. and i appreciate you joining me. >> thank you. good to be with you. coming up, the man who once had hopes of his own white house run, former south carolina governor mark sanford. anananana] this...is the network. a living, breathing intelligence that's helping drive the future of business. in here, inventory can be taught to learn. ♪ machines have a voice. ♪ medical history follows you. it's the at&t network -- a network of possibilities... committed to delivering the most advanced mobile broadband experience to help move business... forward. ♪ discover aveeno positively radiant tinted moisturizers with scientifically proven soy complex and natural minerals. give you sheer coverage instantly, then go on to even skin tone in four weeks. aveeno tinted moisturizers. 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[ baby crying ] ben harper: ♪ what started as a whisper every day, millions of people choose to do the right thing. ♪ slowly turned into a scream ♪ there's an insurance company that does that, too. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? but not in my neighborhood. ♪ [ female announcer ] we're throwing away misperceptions about natural gas vehicles. more of the vehicles that fuel our lives use clean american natural gas today. it costs about 40 percent less than gasoline, so why aren't we using it even more? start a conversation about using more natural gas vehicles in your community. mark sanford is a man who knows the republican party from the inside, and he knows how fast things can change in politics. the he was once talked about as a presidential candidate. that is before his affair, his divorce and the departure from the governor's mansion. now after two years, mark sanford going public again. he joins me now. welcome. >> thank you. >> my obvious first question is why are you doing this interview? what would you hope to gain from this? >> i can't hammer nails for the rest of my life. i've been down at the farm you all were nice enough to visit you. get to the point where it's comfortable to be, it's time to start speaking out again on issues that i i've cared about for 20 years of my life. you don't invest 20 years of your politics that f you don't really, really care. and i care deeply. i'm very worried about the direction of our country. i think if we don't watch out, we could lose it. benjamin franklin's famous words were basically handing you a republic if you can keep it. and i think we're at a really, really precarious point, the likes of which people don't fully grasp or understand. >> in a way, you were the very first kind of leader of the tea party before it was formed into a proper revolutionary party. when you have seen what has happened to america, and you have seen the emergence of the tea party as a proper political force, do you feel a slight twinge of regret you're not at the forefront of this? >> you know, i don't think sh i don't believe there is a lot to gain from the would have beens or the should have beens of life there is an amazing and real fuel with the tea party that i don't think people fully grasp. i think a lot of people think that's about spending. but i think it's really about much, much deeper american values. one is fundamental angst about opportunity. you know, the beauty of the american system is that it provides opportunity. and there is this long-held belief that i did so well, my kids are going to do better than that, my grandkids are going to do better than that. i think the part of the fuel that has fuelled the tea party is people really calling that into question. i don't know if that's is true for my kids. i don't know if they're going to do better than i am. and i think the other part, and i saw this during the stimulus debate. i spoke out vociferously against the stimulus when it first came out. i was the first governor to formally reject it. what i saw then was people genuinely concerned about the issue of equity. the glue that holds us together as americans, as disparity as we might be is the belief it's a fair system. you work hard, you'll succeed or fair on the idea based on meritocacy. >> there is someone who has a beach house in the hamptons who is getting build a out. meanwhile my cousin who runs a little pizza shop, he ain't getting build a out there. is a genuine question about opportunity. >> do you agree with warren buffett when he said the tax system has to be reformed to hammer people like him, the super rich who are paying a disproportionate amount of tax compared to the guy on the street? >> i would say i absolutely believe this the notion of tax reform. we need either a fair tax or a flat tax, a much simpler form. i think that warren buffett was terribly misleading with what he said. i think at two different levels. one is, you know, he was basically looking at capital gains tax, 15%. what he is not including is the fact that he also owns the company. and so there is a corporate tax of 35%. we effectively have the highest corporate rate in the world. so you combine and you're about at 50%. he wasn't including the corporate tax. the other thing that is really misleading is berkshire hathaway, his company doesn't pay dividends. what is the tax on unrecognized gains in america? zero. he doesn't need the cash flow like his secretary or somebody else might. he can make millions and millions of dollars on a daily basis, get no tax because it's rating assets. >> which of the republicans at the moment -- we're seeing a clear pattern beginning to emerge, romney, bachmann, perry and so on. who do you think fundamentally has what it takes in the overall package to seriously challenge barack obama? >> i think that the primary system will winnow that out. >> what is your gut feeling? what would you say? >> you're trying to get me to pick a horse. >> i'm saying you're in the paddock, and these horses are being shown around. >> yeah. >> what is an early feeling you're getting for who could beat him. >> how about this. what i would say is i think there are a couple of attributes the american public is in search of. one is paul ryan's sort of technical expertise of the budget. a lot of time platitudes are talked about in terms of ooh, we're going to cut spending, or we're going to reform taxes. i think that the beauty of the ryan budget, whether you agree or disagree with it is it was very specific in nature. and i think we're at that point given the overall crisis that i see coming our way where in we need specifics. >> you would like to have a kind of hybrid of him and someone like chris christy, who i spent a day with. and i found him very impressive. but he made it pretty clear he wasn't going to run this time. do you believe him? do you think he is persuadable as we get through the next few months and we get to the proper primary, could you see him rallying to the cause of the party if no one has emerge