do. nobody can get the support to get one of those through. do we have to look for just the possible? >> i think mission number one is to raise the debt ceiling. they cannot get away without doing that. saying they're going to downgrade you. but they left a bit of an out. if you raise the ceiling but give indication you're on the road to getting a deal, we'll keep you on credit watch negative but take you off and affirm your aaa rating if you get it done within a couple of months if we see that possibility. so that's -- that seems to me to be the fallback plan for congress. weather they take -- senator mcconnell has put a fallback plan in that neither seems to like to allow the president to raise the debt ceiling a couple of times. politically it would make him look bad. number one mission, raise the debt ceiling. >> ken, considering how hard this has been, how contentious, has the damage already been done in some extent in the world's view? >> not yet. number one we have to raise the debt ceiling. but are we going to do this every year? this is a constitutional crisis. i don't know how we'll run the country if we wait until midnight on the last possible night. >> how will we get other politics done? ben, the simple truth is this has dominated everything else. what else have we heard about anything else important? >> no. we haven't heard about job creation. we haven't heard about anything else basically as this sucked all the oxygen out of the air. obviously they need to raise the debt ceiling. but the politics are so complicated and competing interests. have the debt ceiling raised, have debt reduction gone. republicans will not accept any tax increases. so you have this politics coming together. >> i think one of the things that continues to be overlooked in all of this was raised by ben bernanke who warned if we don't have a debt deal in times we could see businesses even less willing to hire. i don't know how you can be less willing than zero to hire. let's listen to what he had to say. >> if the government is reducing its payments by 40%, that's going to have an impact as well. i can only conclude this would be very bad for jobs. >> ken, let me ask something about that. because this week i was reading a number of warnings that were saying to the public in general, don't make a mistake here. either one is bad for jobs. we're talking about a difficult time for our economy. that's why we're having this discussion. we're not going to come up with a solution and say our problems are solved. this is a big band-aid on a much more serious problem. >> this isn't about jobs today. this is about where we're going to be in ten or fifteen years. are we going to run off a cliff? are we going to have a gradual adjustment or wait until the last second and have markets force us? they're not forcing us to do this. we see it coming eventually. so this is not going to help. although it'll encourage wall street, encourage credit a bit. because it'll provide a bit of calm finally in the markets over this. >> do you think that any of that -- any of the plans you see right now when you look at them do you say any of this will create jobs now? because the warning i'm hearing about so many of them is in the short-term, this is possibly going to slow things down even more. >> yeah. they're not creating jobs now. but they're taking some very hard problems and by gosh, if they actually do some of the tax reform, it's going to make a big difference over the longer term. it will be a help for the economy. >> jeanne, if they do the -- there's so many ifs in washington. >> however much time we have left, yes. >> washington keeps saying we don't want to do things with a gun to our head. yet washington doesn't seem to do anything without a gun to their head. what's the silver lining here if at all? this sounds more like we just have to protect ourselves. that's it. >> i've been covering the debt ceiling since january which is going on eight months now. timothy geithner sent a letter to congress, it would be an awesome idea if you raise the debt ceiling sooner rather than later because we don't want to get caught. i don't see a silver lining yet. if they allow themselves real time to have a real conversation -- because right now it's still a food fight. the gang of six plan came out this week. i started getting e-mails from progressive groups and conservative groups saying it's terrible. really? how do you know? because we don't really have the details. we need to have a discussion. we are discussing this. >> it's funny you said that. i've been referring this as an adjustable rate over the debt ceiling. because nobody seems to know what the bottom line is here. we do know this. we know that voters are concerned about jobs. voters are concerned about real nuts and bolts issues. do you think that both the democrats and republicans as they fight for the edge on this thing are really shooting themselves in the foot politically because there is no political gang to be had here. the whole system looks worse and worse and worse. >> i think there is some political gain. people are tired of all of the debts run up by washington. they do take seriously the idea that long-term deficit reduction could help our economy in the long-term and help create jobs. you have corporations perhaps getting lower rates. which could help them create jobs. so i think there is a political benefit to being serious about deficit reduction. obviously if you cut spending dramatically quickly, you're going to take some jobs out of the system. there could be a short-term hit. but i think in terms of politics, it's a benefit to the politician who could say i'm serious about getting our deficit under control. >> all right. we'll get back on to that and on to a poll of what voters want to see on this. all stay where you are. playing politics with the debt ceiling. the tea party, a popular target for many out there. but there's another question here. has a tactical move by president obama put our nation's credit further at risk? we'll take that up in just a moment. act my age? -why? -why? -why? 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[ major nutrition ] new ensure high protein. ensure! nutrition in charge! . the treasury department has warned that if the debt ceiling is not raised by the 2nd, america will not be able to pay all of its bills. the prevailing thought is that bond investors will be paid first. they lend america money. for everyone else, no deal. could mean reductions to social security medicare and medicaid, food stamps, and federal workers. defaulting on our debt would likely mean a lowering of america's sterling credit rating. that could potentially mean it would be harder for most many earns to get a loan as it rippled through the interest system. ken, by not publicly guaranteeing that bond investors will be paid on time. by not making it firm this will happen, has the obama administration created an environment for people to question. >> i think they're questioning our credit worthiness because we have this debt that's soaring. no plan yet to reign it in. i think that's the number one reason. they are nervous if we do business this way, once in a while we might forget to pay the bondholders and it'd be catastrophic. they have to pay them first or the economy implodes. >> people say there is so much uncertainty that that's why they won't move forward. it seems similar to what you're saying, ken. the debt, the deficit alone may be a problem. doesn't have to be. the lack of a plan is what scares people. no idea what's coming. >> well, i think they certainly have reason to feel uncertain about the next few weeks. sometimes i hear that argument and think it's just political. if you don't like the president, you claim you can't hire people. in this case they have absolute reason to be uncertain. what happens after. august 2, tim geithner may have to squirrel away a lot of cash to pay the bond. a lot of people in the country might not get paid. we don't know who. it's not going to be hard to figure out. for anybody. that sort of chaotic situation is not going to be good. politically for anybody. >> so what kind of deal do people out there want? that depends on what party you identify with. 83% of democrats say give me a deal with a mix of spending cuts and tax increases. but that kind of compromise only works for about a third of republicans. as for the independents, the people you can't win the white house without these days, 63% want to see a mixed budget plan. so ben, if the republicans want to get the independents behind them in this next election, can they continue to beat the drum of no taxes, no taxes, no taxes when the independents say they're willing to talk about that? >> i don't think so. i think the republicans in the house have moved beyond where the public is. the energy in their party, the tea party movement is a no tax movement. that's a minority in their party. it's not independents clearly who are willing to accept new revenues. i think the republican party is captive to its wing. a lot of energy comes from there and don't want to -- but i think they're in danger to playing to that part of the party and losing the middle and independents. that's where obama is racing to right now. it helps him that the liberal wing of his party are upset about the cuts in entitlement programs because he wants those independents. he wants to be clinton in 1996. it was a big fight with the extreme wing in the republican party. he went to the middle. he won re-election. >> there's some indication that he actually needs the independents more than he needs the liberals. the liberals can't elect him alone. there's not enough of them. and where else are they going to go? >> exactly. they may stay home, but they're not going to abandon him. they're certainly not going to vote republican. if he wants to win in ohio, florida, midwest. places where he absolutely has to win to win the white house again, he needs the independent vote. this is the main moment for him to capture this vote is for him to come up with a reduction plan that has shared sacrifice. that cuts spending. this is his pivotal moment. >> ken, i don't see any way -- let the republicans and democrats be mad if they wish -- i don't think i see any way mathematically to do this. what do you think? you know the numbers in this. >> mathematically it might be possible, but wouldn't be pleasant for the economy. taxes, revenues have to go up. i think the gang of six and the position president obama has moved towards recently is get rid of some of the deductions and loopholes with b that's the way to raise tax revenues. that's where the silver lining is. if they can do that, we will be energized and have more revenues and it will be okay. boy, they don't seem to be moving towards that very smoothly. >> the european union is going to provide more aid to help greece out of its debt crisis. people are looking for models overseas for what we might see. does this put an end to the defaults throughout europe and does it put more pressure on us to produce a deal here or just a step along the way? >> it's just a step along the way. they stuffed greece in the closet and they still have to deal with ireland and portugal and italy and spain. they did a lot recently. this meeting on thursday, they did a lot. but they had to do a lot. the markets were going crazy. i think they bought themselves some time. so it's just their motive. do just enough to make it to the next meeting. >> last question. yes or no from each of you. deal by the end of the week? >> no. >> deal by the end of the week? >> no. >> this is so bleak. and then another deal after that. thanks for being here. the tea party voice is heard loud and clear in the republican party. but will it end up hurting the gop in 2012? we'll take that up in just a moment. announcer: when life's this hard, it's no wonder 7,000 students drop out every school day. visit boostup.org and help kids in your community stay in school. [♪...] >> male announcer: now, for a limited time, your companion flies free, plus save up to 65%. call 1-800-sandals. conditions apply. as hard as it may be to believe sometimes, history teaches us that democrats and republicans actually can work together. but what about the tea party? democrats can't seem to stand them, of course. but the more moderate republicans are also tiring of the tea party's influence on these budget battles in particular. this view on raising taxes held by those by presidential candidate michele bachmann. >> president obama does because they embrace the idea of increasing taxes. there is absolutely no appetite anywhere across the united states for increasing taxes. >> will cain is a conservative political analyst. will, you join us now. republicans love the tea party. michele bachmann is incorrect there. there is an appetite among some people for raising taxes. just not the people who support her. but republicans like the energy of the tea party. they like the fact they got people involved saying come to washington let's make things happen. do they like it still? >> some of them. a minute ago you said republicans and democrats have a history of working together and you're right. but that working together, that compromise led to medicare prescription part d. it led to record increases in department of education. virtually every department over the last 12 years. thus it led to the tea party. the tea party has a win on their side. obama is talking about major spending cuts. but now it seems like they have an ability to take a win. i don't understand that strategy. why can't you just take yes as an answer? >> because it comes out as compromise. a lot in the tear party say we were sent here to do something. we're going to do what we were sent to do. >> yeah. and that is a noble principle. guys who are not worried about getting re-elected who are principled individuals, but at the same time this is a government where you can't have my way or the highway. take a 75% win. >> all right. mark is chairman of the memphis tea party. according to a cnn poll, 55% have an unfavorable opinion of the republican party right now. mark, do members of the tea party concern themselves with how the country sees the republican party? >> no. i think we're focused as will said on the fiscal issues. the issue isn't about compromise. it's about verifiable results. reagan had it best. trust by verify. even the three to one deal will spoke about, i looked at the proposal proposal. it takes credit for reducing as we like to hear, the cost curve over time. and the problem i think the tea party is being intransdent in this matter is it's expecting results. and we're not seeing that. the only thing we have seen that is legislation proposed and passed a cut, cap, and balance. there's not a conflict here. it's just holding people accountable. >> first let's bring in john avalon. he's a senior political columnist for "newsweek." a poll found two-thirds of tea party members say it won't be a problem if we go past august 2nd without a dell ceiling deal. almost any economist strongly disagrees with that. how do republicans strike a deal and gain support among the tea party base? >> that's becoming a real problem. with the debt ceiling deniers, is a drain of populous. i think the tea party was reducing the debt. talking about generational theft. reality check here. tax revenues are as low as harry truman. and ronald reagan presided over 17 raises in the debt ceiling. to will's point, take a win. the gang of six deal which reduces tax rates and a dozen entitlement reform, this should be embraced. this all or nothing at attitude shows the real enemy is bipartisanship. not because a history of spending increases. in divided government in the past, we've had the highway built, the marshall plan, all of reagans terms essentially. the term for these folks is a dislike and distrust with bipartisanship. which is essential to get anything passed in a divided government. so reality check, folks. we need to raise the debt ceiling and we need to reduce the deficit. the only way that gets done is with a bipartisan plan. >> mark, i'm sure you want to jump in on that. why don't you want to take a win at this point? >> because it's not a win. i looked at the numbers. first of all, it's a proposal. there's no legislation we could put our hands around. it's a $1 trillion tax increase. >> no it's not. >> and it's a $3 trillion savings. >> i'm sorry i'm reading in the post. there's no legislation i can point to. so let me just suggest that at this point there's $1 trillion of quote unquote closing the proverbial loopholes. then there's the $2 trillion of savings on future costs of government. >> mark, do you consider closing loopholes a tax increase? >> absolutely. >> you do? >> let's be very clear. i do. >> they're loopholes in the tax code. when did that become a tax increase? i thought you were against earmarks. >> let me be clear. i'm against the code because it's overly complex and bad for the economy. there are issues in terms of closing what loopholes you want. it's a political motivation. we talk about off shore drilling but don't talk about aspects of nuclear power. we don't deal with the realities that the economy is facing. what we as a tea party and my own views are that we want verifiable reductions in spending. if they get to that $3 trillion. that's $300 billion a year a hundred of which is taxes. >> mark, this is will. listen. here's a guy, i believe in small government. if you can't win me over, we've got a problem here. you've made two different arguments. are we opposing this gang of six deal or any bargain because the spending cuts are unclear or because there are any potential tax increases? >> there are two things. fundamentally the cost reductions are not clear. it's not evident. we went through that already last year at the end of the year with john boehner. we haven't saved a dollar. so let's be very clear. if we're going to reduce the actual spending we've got to have verifiable results. that's required. and i think in my context of suggesting to you that a lot of people in the tea party aren't maniacs about this. they're saying we're not going to get fooled again. in 2009 during health care, there was no bipartisanship. i was there when they sequestered congress and made them vote. so please don't look at the context of the discussion here around bipartisanship. that's not the question. the question is verifiable results. >> mark, we've had a reduction in time here. so we're going to have to wrap it up here. same question to you guys very quickly.