page 80 sorry paragraph 84, you address the issue of what a reasonable excuse might be. the first point you make is that the regulations themselves contained list of reasonable excuses but they weren't the same in the different countries of the uk. 0bviously weren't the same in the different countries of the uk. obviously a problem for you. it countries of the uk. obviously a problem for you.— countries of the uk. obviously a problem for you. it was i think even further than — problem for you. it was i think even further than the _ problem for you. it was i think even further than the fact _ problem for you. it was i think even further than the fact that _ problem for you. it was i think even further than the fact that they - further than the fact that they weren't— further than the fact that they weren't necessarily in the different countries, — weren't necessarily in the different countries, but evenjust weren't necessarily in the different countries, but even just the weren't necessarily in the different countries, but evenjust the lack is i point _ countries, but evenjust the lack is i point to— countries, but evenjust the lack is i point to their of any specifics, it left_ i point to their of any specifics, it left a — i point to their of any specifics, it left a great deal for an individual. 0n the first point confusing for an individual to understand what they were able to do but also _ understand what they were able to do but also then created and this point here about — but also then created and this point here about the lack of any specifics on how— here about the lack of any specifics on how far— here about the lack of any specifics on how far you could travel to go on to have _ on how far you could travel to go on to have your— on how far you could travel to go on to have your exercise takes me back to have your exercise takes me back to the _ to have your exercise takes me back to the example i gave about the beauty — to the example i gave about the beauty spots. to the example i gave about the beauty spate— to the example i gave about the beau sots. . , , . . beauty spots. vagueness and added la er of beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion _ beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion relating _ beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion relating to - beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion relating to the - layer of confusion relating to the fact that specified reasonable excuses were different amongst the different nations of the uk. and if we look at paragraph 85, and extra problem which is the government guide and said something different again. presumably part of the problem there was government guidance might not come as a same time as regulation, it might develop over time which might be a challenge if you had already published those documents that we were looking at. very much so one of the real challenges for us was a language used _ challenges for us was a language used i_ challenges for us was a language used i understand how challenging it was but _ used i understand how challenging it was but i _ used i understand how challenging it was but i referred earlier to the morning — was but i referred earlier to the morning media around and on any given— morning media around and on any given day— morning media around and on any given day there would be a duty minister— given day there would be a duty minister who would do the rows of about— minister who would do the rows of about where the situation was in those _ about where the situation was in those 0n— about where the situation was in those. on many occasions it answer to questions — those. on many occasions it answer to questions i would understand how challenging those scenarios can be, too questions i would refer to guidance _ too questions i would refer to guidance of if it was regulation or vice versa — guidance of if it was regulation or vice versa. that would then throw a whole _ vice versa. that would then throw a whole degree of confusion out of not 'ust whole degree of confusion out of not just in— whole degree of confusion out of not just in the _ whole degree of confusion out of not just in the public and on a number of occasions — just in the public and on a number of occasions i then found myself going _ of occasions i then found myself going and — of occasions i then found myself going and doing the lunchtime media to try— going and doing the lunchtime media to try and _ going and doing the lunchtime media to try and say no in fact that is not illegal, _ to try and say no in fact that is not illegal, but as a guidance is issued — not illegal, but as a guidance is issued i— not illegal, but as a guidance is issued i understand how how challenging it was and it did change quite regularly. but it was incredibly unhelpful i think it was unhelpful for member of the public to understand because the vast majority — to understand because the vast majority of members of the public it seemed _ majority of members of the public it seemed to — majority of members of the public it seemed to me did not want to break the regulations were put themselves injeopardy but it the regulations were put themselves in jeopardy but it was the regulations were put themselves injeopardy but it was incredibly confusing — injeopardy but it was incredibly confusing to understand. then it takes _ confusing to understand. then it takes you — confusing to understand. then it takes you back into that of the ring point _ takes you back into that of the ring point say— takes you back into that of the ring point say wait a minute everyone seems _ point say wait a minute everyone seems to— point say wait a minute everyone seems to be doing that sort it is probably— seems to be doing that sort it is probably 0k seems to be doing that sort it is probably ok for me that is difficult. ,., . ,, probably ok for me that is difficult. ,., ,., . ,, ., ,., difficult. going back to the point about the different _ difficult. going back to the point about the different reasonable l about the different reasonable excuses specified in the regulations and those excuses being differently specified amongst the different countries of the uk, we have mentioned a couple of times that the npc c was a uk body. you have mentioned your liaison with the london government. did you where you able to take any steps to try and coordinate between the devolved nations and london and try to discourage unnecessary amongst the regulations? it discourage unnecessary amongst the reuulations? ., , ., ., discourage unnecessary amongst the reuulations? ., ., ., regulations? it was not our position to be trying — regulations? it was not our position to be trying to _ regulations? it was not our position to be trying to influence _ regulations? it was not our position to be trying to influence directly, i to be trying to influence directly, influence — to be trying to influence directly, influence regulations. through the chief constable in northern ireland in scotland and the four chief constables in wales, they were all obviously— constables in wales, they were all obviously working very closely with their devolved administrations and were in— their devolved administrations and were in a _ their devolved administrations and were in a position to influence in the way— were in a position to influence in the way that they influenced in those — the way that they influenced in those jurisdictions. the way that they influenced in thosejurisdictions. i the way that they influenced in those jurisdictions. i do think referring _ those jurisdictions. i do think referring back to the question earlier— referring back to the question earlier i— referring back to the question earlier i think there was probably closer— earlier i think there was probably closer police involvement in scotland and northern ireland and wales, _ scotland and northern ireland and wales, but it wasn't my position to try and _ wales, but it wasn't my position to try and directly influence there it was really— try and directly influence there it was really through those chief constables with their own administrations is the issues they felt. administrations is the issues they feit~ but— administrations is the issues they felt but it — administrations is the issues they felt. but it was a source of frustration to policing throughout that you — frustration to policing throughout that you had that difference. cieariy — that you had that difference. clearly northern ireland, their primary— clearly northern ireland, their primary border issue was with differences with the republic. we have relatively limited challenges for scotland because of the nature of the _ for scotland because of the nature of the geography. with wales there were more challenges with different regulations and different sides of what is _ regulations and different sides of what is essentially an invisible border— what is essentially an invisible border that was very challenging i think— border that was very challenging i think for— border that was very challenging i think for a — border that was very challenging i think fora number of border that was very challenging i think for a number of the welsh and engiish _ think for a number of the welsh and english forces where you had different regulations either side of a road _ different regulations either side of a road i_ different regulations either side of a road. ., ., ., ., a road. i want to move our discussion — a road. i want to move our discussion on _ a road. i want to move our discussion on a _ a road. i want to move our discussion on a little. - a road. i want to move our discussion on a little. we l a road. i want to move our- discussion on a little. we have talked about the confusion caused by either unclear regulations or inconsistent guidance from the government. you have made the point that you believe that most people want to comply but i needed to be told what compliance meant. perhaps it is obvious about help us with this the confusion in the regulations and guidance was one of its consequences, and impact on compliance itself? i its consequences, and impact on compliance itself?— compliance itself? i think definitely. _ compliance itself? i think definitely. two _ compliance itself? i think definitely. two things - compliance itself? i thinkj definitely. two things the compliance itself? i think - definitely. two things the first is people _ definitely. two things the first is people genuinely at times couldn't understand particularly in their circumstances where they fitted and i think— circumstances where they fitted and i think a _ circumstances where they fitted and i think a lot — circumstances where they fitted and i think a lot of did... when we first— i think a lot of did... when we first went— i think a lot of did... when we first went into lockdown in march it was such _ first went into lockdown in march it was such a — first went into lockdown in march it was such a normal sting and we remember— was such a normal sting and we remember how every empty was over a period _ remember how every empty was over a period of— remember how every empty was over a period of time that an and determination we can some extent. once _ determination we can some extent. once you _ determination we can some extent. once you start having all the changes _ once you start having all the changes and people are a little confused — changes and people are a little confused about the changes, then i think— confused about the changes, then i think it _ confused about the changes, then i think it inevitably starts to erode people's— think it inevitably starts to erode people's commitment and it's really is that— people's commitment and it's really is that sensible, why are my household complying when we can clearly _ household complying when we can clearly see other people aren't? just shifting focus, did it also have an effect on the morale of the police force? i have an effect on the morale of the police force?— police force? i was incredibly impressed — police force? i was incredibly impressed with _ police force? i was incredibly impressed with the - police force? i was incredibly impressed with the morale i police force? i was incredibly i impressed with the morale that police force? i was incredibly - impressed with the morale that was maintained throughout the pandemic by the _ maintained throughout the pandemic by the police service. these officers _ by the police service. these officers were out there doing what they were — officers were out there doing what they were doing in the face of the virus _ they were doing in the face of the virus all— they were doing in the face of the virus all the time and got on with that and — virus all the time and got on with that and we worked to improve to provide _ that and we worked to improve to provide them with the right protection but nonetheless for their morale _ protection but nonetheless for their morale because they more interactions became antagonistic because — interactions became antagonistic because people were either fed up with the _ because people were either fed up with the regulations or they were fed up— with the regulations or they were fed up because i didn't feel others will following the relations, it inevitably snaps away at the morale of the _ inevitably snaps away at the morale of the officers who are just trying to do— of the officers who are just trying to do their— of the officers who are just trying to do theirjob i'm pretty difficult circumstances. i to do theirjob i'm pretty difficult circumstances.— to do theirjob i'm pretty difficult circumstances. ., ,, ., , ., circumstances. i would like to share with ou circumstances. i would like to share with you and _ circumstances. i would like to share with you and newspaper— circumstances. i would like to share with you and newspaper article - circumstances. i would like to share| with you and newspaper article from february 2020 the middle of the pandemic. —— february 20 i know you are familiar with this article. it is a report of a survey of nearly 12 front line officers, conducted by the police federation. —— i2. front line officers, conducted by the police federation. —— 12. the key finding is in the second paragraph, more than seven in 10 of those 12 officers who had been asked had said they were unclear and are remainder did not agree or disagree with the question whether the covid regulations themselves had been clear and easy to apply. we see in the paragraph below the chair of the police federation saying ministers needed to avoid mistakes and to messages when a green future roles. if we can scroll down a bit, and quote from him which says, he said" the fact that it would more 60 real changes introduced during a pandemic it comes as no surprise whatsoever that only 10% of police officers who responded to our survey said they found covid—i9 rule changes to be clear. that was the small group who had actually positively said they thought it was clear. i meant to mention the paragraph above that as well full stop and other the survey was less than a quarter fell that the strategy the four we have looked at was effective and enforcing their powers. the inference being that because they have found it so difficult to explain and to encourage people to use, and then finally the paragraph below the one we looked at, saying we have been from saying from the beginning clear guidance and what people can and can't do is needed otherwise people will fulfil foul of the rules or may take advantage of the mixed messages. a great deal of consistency between what you have been telling us this morning and what he has reported as having said there i could argue with the way it was a but the fact of the matter if there was no doubt this was a point it comes _ there was no doubt this was a point it comes in — there was no doubt this was a point it comes in one the sections that was highlighted there this was at the point — was highlighted there this was at the point where there was going to be the _ the point where there was going to be the easing at this concept of super— be the easing at this concept of super saturday because police officers — super saturday because police officers being police officers and practical — officers being police officers and practical work kind of recognising where _ practical work kind of recognising where this— practical work kind of recognising where this was likely to go at the point _ where this was likely to go at the point where you were suddenly going to open— point where you were suddenly going to open up— point where you were suddenly going to open up my economy. one of the perhaps— to open up my economy. one of the perhaps the — to open up my economy. one of the perhaps the runway one of the pluses from the _ perhaps the runway one of the pluses from the beginning was a night—time economy— from the beginning was a night—time economy which was a real challenge for policing — economy which was a real challenge for policing was obviously shutdown so i think— for policing was obviously shutdown so i think it — for policing was obviously shutdown so i think it has expressed some of that frustration but it fairly expressed that challenge that officers — expressed that challenge that officers on the ground were finding in how— officers on the ground were finding in how you — officers on the ground were finding in how you go and explain things which _ in how you go and explain things which were incredibly complex and not very _ which were incredibly complex and not very specific at times. we have already touched _ not very specific at times. we have already touched on _ not very specific at times. we have already touched on the _ not very specific at times. we have already touched on the fact - not very specific at times. we have already touched on the fact that i already touched on the fact that this inquiry has the power to make recommendations for the future. we have taught first of all about the value and importance of maximum degree of prior consultation with the police would you agree that to something that is worth considering? definitely. something that is worth considering? definitel . , something that is worth considering? definitel. , ., ., ., ., definitely. does it follow from what we have been _ definitely. does it follow from what we have been discussing _ definitely. does it follow from what we have been discussing about - we have been discussing about clarity of regulations and confusion with tension between regulations and guidance, that there was matters that also should be considered on any future pandemic, trying to keep regulations a simple as possible, and the conflict guidance? absolutely i generally do understand the challenge that was presented. i understand and we have all seen the challenge _ understand and we have all seen the challenge and debates we are going on between the health requirements and the _ on between the health requirements and the economic requirements and in some _ and the economic requirements and in some sense _ and the economic requirements and in some sense to political requirements i do guess— some sense to political requirements i do guess that but i think there has to— i do guess that but i think there has to be — i do guess that but i think there has to be a _ i do guess that but i think there has to be a greater degree of a systematic process to arrive at changes — systematic process to arrive at changes. of course the virus changed over time _ changes. of course the virus changed over time and changes. of course the virus changed overtime and we changes. of course