page 80 sorry paragraph 84, you address the issue of what a reasonable excuse might be. the first point you make is that the regulations themselves contained list of reasonable excuses but they weren't the same in the different countries of the uk. 0bviously weren't the same in the different countries of the uk. obviously a problem for you. it countries of the uk. obviously a problem for you.— countries of the uk. obviously a problem for you. it was i think even further than — problem for you. it was i think even further than the _ problem for you. it was i think even further than the fact _ problem for you. it was i think even further than the fact that _ problem for you. it was i think even further than the fact that they - further than the fact that they weren't— further than the fact that they weren't necessarily in the different countries, — weren't necessarily in the different countries, but evenjust weren't necessarily in the different countries, but even just the weren't necessarily in the different countries, but evenjust the lack is i point _ countries, but evenjust the lack is i point to— countries, but evenjust the lack is i point to their of any specifics, it left_ i point to their of any specifics, it left a — i point to their of any specifics, it left a great deal for an individual. 0n the first point confusing for an individual to understand what they were able to do but also _ understand what they were able to do but also then created and this point here about — but also then created and this point here about the lack of any specifics on how— here about the lack of any specifics on how far— here about the lack of any specifics on how far you could travel to go on to have _ on how far you could travel to go on to have your— on how far you could travel to go on to have your exercise takes me back to have your exercise takes me back to the _ to have your exercise takes me back to the example i gave about the beauty — to the example i gave about the beauty spots. to the example i gave about the beauty spate— to the example i gave about the beau sots. . , , . . beauty spots. vagueness and added la er of beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion _ beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion relating _ beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion relating to - beauty spots. vagueness and added layer of confusion relating to the - layer of confusion relating to the fact that specified reasonable excuses were different amongst the different nations of the uk. and if we look at paragraph 85, and extra problem which is the government guide and said something different again. presumably part of the problem there was government guidance might not come as a same time as regulation, it might develop over time which might be a challenge if you had already published those documents that we were looking at. very much so one of the real challenges for us was a language used _ challenges for us was a language used i_ challenges for us was a language used i understand how challenging it was but _ used i understand how challenging it was but i _ used i understand how challenging it was but i referred earlier to the morning — was but i referred earlier to the morning media around and on any given— morning media around and on any given day— morning media around and on any given day there would be a duty minister— given day there would be a duty minister who would do the rows of about— minister who would do the rows of about where the situation was in those _ about where the situation was in those 0n— about where the situation was in those. on many occasions it answer to questions — those. on many occasions it answer to questions i would understand how challenging those scenarios can be, too questions i would refer to guidance _ too questions i would refer to guidance of if it was regulation or vice versa — guidance of if it was regulation or vice versa. that would then throw a whole _ vice versa. that would then throw a whole degree of confusion out of not 'ust whole degree of confusion out of not just in— whole degree of confusion out of not just in the _ whole degree of confusion out of not just in the public and on a number of occasions — just in the public and on a number of occasions i then found myself going _ of occasions i then found myself going and — of occasions i then found myself going and doing the lunchtime media to try— going and doing the lunchtime media to try and _ going and doing the lunchtime media to try and say no in fact that is not illegal, _ to try and say no in fact that is not illegal, but as a guidance is issued — not illegal, but as a guidance is issued i— not illegal, but as a guidance is issued i understand how how challenging it was and it did change quite regularly. but it was incredibly unhelpful i think it was unhelpful for member of the public to understand because the vast majority — to understand because the vast majority of members of the public it seemed _ majority of members of the public it seemed to — majority of members of the public it seemed to me did not want to break the regulations were put themselves injeopardy but it the regulations were put themselves in jeopardy but it was the regulations were put themselves injeopardy but it was incredibly confusing — injeopardy but it was incredibly confusing to understand. then it takes _ confusing to understand. then it takes you — confusing to understand. then it takes you back into that of the ring point _ takes you back into that of the ring point say— takes you back into that of the ring point say wait a minute everyone seems _ point say wait a minute everyone seems to— point say wait a minute everyone seems to be doing that sort it is probably— seems to be doing that sort it is probably 0k seems to be doing that sort it is probably ok for me that is difficult. ,., . ,, probably ok for me that is difficult. ,., ,., . ,, ., ,., difficult. going back to the point about the different _ difficult. going back to the point about the different reasonable l about the different reasonable excuses specified in the regulations and those excuses being differently specified amongst the different countries of the uk, we have mentioned a couple of times that the npc c was a uk body. you have mentioned your liaison with the london government. did you where you able to take any steps to try and coordinate between the devolved nations and london and try to discourage unnecessary amongst the regulations? it discourage unnecessary amongst the reuulations? ., , ., ., discourage unnecessary amongst the reuulations? ., ., ., regulations? it was not our position to be trying — regulations? it was not our position to be trying to _ regulations? it was not our position to be trying to influence _ regulations? it was not our position to be trying to influence directly, i to be trying to influence directly, influence — to be trying to influence directly, influence regulations. through the chief constable in northern ireland in scotland and the four chief constables in wales, they were all obviously— constables in wales, they were all obviously working very closely with their devolved administrations and were in— their devolved administrations and were in a _ their devolved administrations and were in a position to influence in the way— were in a position to influence in the way that they influenced in those — the way that they influenced in those jurisdictions. the way that they influenced in thosejurisdictions. i the way that they influenced in those jurisdictions. i do think referring _ those jurisdictions. i do think referring back to the question earlier— referring back to the question earlier i— referring back to the question earlier i think there was probably closer— earlier i think there was probably closer police involvement in scotland and northern ireland and wales, _ scotland and northern ireland and wales, but it wasn't my position to try and _ wales, but it wasn't my position to try and directly influence there it was really— try and directly influence there it was really through those chief constables with their own administrations is the issues they felt. administrations is the issues they feit~ but— administrations is the issues they felt but it — administrations is the issues they felt. but it was a source of frustration to policing throughout that you — frustration to policing throughout that you had that difference. cieariy — that you had that difference. clearly northern ireland, their primary— clearly northern ireland, their primary border issue was with differences with the republic. we have relatively limited challenges for scotland because of the nature of the _ for scotland because of the nature of the geography. with wales there were more challenges with different regulations and different sides of what is _ regulations and different sides of what is essentially an invisible border— what is essentially an invisible border that was very challenging i think— border that was very challenging i think for— border that was very challenging i think for a — border that was very challenging i think fora number of border that was very challenging i think for a number of the welsh and engiish _ think for a number of the welsh and english forces where you had different regulations either side of a road _ different regulations either side of a road i_ different regulations either side of a road. ., ., ., ., a road. i want to move our discussion — a road. i want to move our discussion on _ a road. i want to move our discussion on a _ a road. i want to move our discussion on a little. - a road. i want to move our discussion on a little. we l a road. i want to move our- discussion on a little. we have talked about the confusion caused by either unclear regulations or inconsistent guidance from the government. you have made the point that you believe that most people want to comply but i needed to be told what compliance meant. perhaps it is obvious about help us with this the confusion in the regulations and guidance was one of its consequences, and impact on compliance itself? i its consequences, and impact on compliance itself?— compliance itself? i think definitely. _ compliance itself? i think definitely. two _ compliance itself? i think definitely. two things - compliance itself? i thinkj definitely. two things the compliance itself? i think - definitely. two things the first is people _ definitely. two things the first is people genuinely at times couldn't understand particularly in their circumstances where they fitted and i think— circumstances where they fitted and i think a _ circumstances where they fitted and i think a lot — circumstances where they fitted and i think a lot of did... when we first— i think a lot of did... when we first went— i think a lot of did... when we first went into lockdown in march it was such _ first went into lockdown in march it was such a — first went into lockdown in march it was such a normal sting and we remember— was such a normal sting and we remember how every empty was over a period _ remember how every empty was over a period of— remember how every empty was over a period of time that an and determination we can some extent. once _ determination we can some extent. once you _ determination we can some extent. once you start having all the changes _ once you start having all the changes and people are a little confused — changes and people are a little confused about the changes, then i think— confused about the changes, then i think it _ confused about the changes, then i think it inevitably starts to erode people's— think it inevitably starts to erode people's commitment and it's really is that— people's commitment and it's really is that sensible, why are my household complying when we can clearly _ household complying when we can clearly see other people aren't? just shifting focus, did it also have an effect on the morale of the police force? i have an effect on the morale of the police force?— police force? i was incredibly impressed — police force? i was incredibly impressed with _ police force? i was incredibly impressed with the - police force? i was incredibly impressed with the morale i police force? i was incredibly i impressed with the morale that police force? i was incredibly - impressed with the morale that was maintained throughout the pandemic by the _ maintained throughout the pandemic by the police service. these officers _ by the police service. these officers were out there doing what they were — officers were out there doing what they were doing in the face of the virus _ they were doing in the face of the virus all— they were doing in the face of the virus all the time and got on with that and — virus all the time and got on with that and we worked to improve to provide _ that and we worked to improve to provide them with the right protection but nonetheless for their morale _ protection but nonetheless for their morale because they more interactions became antagonistic because — interactions became antagonistic because people were either fed up with the _ because people were either fed up with the regulations or they were fed up— with the regulations or they were fed up because i didn't feel others will following the relations, it inevitably snaps away at the morale of the _ inevitably snaps away at the morale of the officers who are just trying to do— of the officers who are just trying to do their— of the officers who are just trying to do theirjob i'm pretty difficult circumstances. i to do theirjob i'm pretty difficult circumstances.— to do theirjob i'm pretty difficult circumstances. ., ,, ., , ., circumstances. i would like to share with ou circumstances. i would like to share with you and _ circumstances. i would like to share with you and newspaper— circumstances. i would like to share with you and newspaper article - circumstances. i would like to share| with you and newspaper article from february 2020 the middle of the pandemic. —— february 20 i know you are familiar with this article. it is a report of a survey of nearly 12 front line officers, conducted by the police federation. —— i2. front line officers, conducted by the police federation. —— 12. the key finding is in the second paragraph, more than seven in 10 of those 12 officers who had been asked had said they were unclear and are remainder did not agree or disagree with the question whether the covid regulations themselves had been clear and easy to apply. we see in the paragraph below the chair of the police federation saying ministers needed to avoid mistakes and to messages when a green future roles. if we can scroll down a bit, and quote from him which says, he said" the fact that it would more 60 real changes introduced during a pandemic it comes as no surprise whatsoever that only 10% of police officers who responded to our survey said they found covid—i9 rule changes to be clear. that was the small group who had actually positively said they thought it was clear. i meant to mention the paragraph above that as well full stop and other the survey was less than a quarter fell that the strategy the four we have looked at was effective and enforcing their powers. the inference being that because they have found it so difficult to explain and to encourage people to use, and then finally the paragraph below the one we looked at, saying we have been from saying from the beginning clear guidance and what people can and can't do is needed otherwise people will fulfil foul of the rules or may take advantage of the mixed messages. a great deal of consistency between what you have been telling us this morning and what he has reported as having said there i could argue with the way it was a but the fact of the matter if there was no doubt this was a point it comes _ there was no doubt this was a point it comes in — there was no doubt this was a point it comes in one the sections that was highlighted there this was at the point — was highlighted there this was at the point where there was going to be the _ the point where there was going to be the easing at this concept of super— be the easing at this concept of super saturday because police officers — super saturday because police officers being police officers and practical — officers being police officers and practical work kind of recognising where _ practical work kind of recognising where this— practical work kind of recognising where this was likely to go at the point _ where this was likely to go at the point where you were suddenly going to open— point where you were suddenly going to open up— point where you were suddenly going to open up my economy. one of the perhaps— to open up my economy. one of the perhaps the — to open up my economy. one of the perhaps the runway one of the pluses from the _ perhaps the runway one of the pluses from the beginning was a night—time economy— from the beginning was a night—time economy which was a real challenge for policing — economy which was a real challenge for policing was obviously shutdown so i think— for policing was obviously shutdown so i think it — for policing was obviously shutdown so i think it has expressed some of that frustration but it fairly expressed that challenge that officers — expressed that challenge that officers on the ground were finding in how— officers on the ground were finding in how you — officers on the ground were finding in how you go and explain things which _ in how you go and explain things which were incredibly complex and not very _ which were incredibly complex and not very specific at times. we have already touched _ not very specific at times. we have already touched on _ not very specific at times. we have already touched on the _ not very specific at times. we have already touched on the fact - not very specific at times. we have already touched on the fact that i already touched on the fact that this inquiry has the power to make recommendations for the future. we have taught first of all about the value and importance of maximum degree of prior consultation with the police would you agree that to something that is worth considering? definitely. something that is worth considering? definitel . , something that is worth considering? definitel. , ., ., ., ., definitely. does it follow from what we have been _ definitely. does it follow from what we have been discussing _ definitely. does it follow from what we have been discussing about - we have been discussing about clarity of regulations and confusion with tension between regulations and guidance, that there was matters that also should be considered on any future pandemic, trying to keep regulations a simple as possible, and the conflict guidance? absolutely i generally do understand the challenge that was presented. i understand and we have all seen the challenge _ understand and we have all seen the challenge and debates we are going on between the health requirements and the _ on between the health requirements and the economic requirements and in some _ and the economic requirements and in some sense _ and the economic requirements and in some sense to political requirements i do guess— some sense to political requirements i do guess that but i think there has to— i do guess that but i think there has to be — i do guess that but i think there has to be a _ i do guess that but i think there has to be a greater degree of a systematic process to arrive at changes — systematic process to arrive at changes. of course the virus changed over time _ changes. of course the virus changed over time and changes. of course the virus changed overtime and we changes. of course the virus changed over time and we all understand that would _ over time and we all understand that would happen. but trying to anticipate and trying to get very clear— anticipate and trying to get very clear guidance as early as possible and for— clear guidance as early as possible and for as— clear guidance as early as possible and for as long as possible staying with that _ and for as long as possible staying with that guidance, because once it started _ with that guidance, because once it started to _ with that guidance, because once it started to change and once it was really _ started to change and once it was really changing quite rapidly and you are — really changing quite rapidly and you are getting tears and you are getting _ you are getting tears and you are getting localised, it became incredibly difficult for even a perfect _ incredibly difficult for even a perfect law by and committed citizen to understand precisely what meant for them _ to understand precisely what meant for them in — to understand precisely what meant forthem in their own to understand precisely what meant for them in their own personal circumstances.— for them in their own personal circumstances. that last point you made was one _ circumstances. that last point you made was one i _ circumstances. that last point you made was one i was _ circumstances. that last point you made was one i was going - circumstances. that last point you made was one i was going to - circumstances. that last point you j made was one i was going to raise studio: you're watching bbc news and live coverage of the covid inquiry here in london we have been watching testimony white micro chairman of the national police chiefs' council he was the chairman between 20 and 20 during the covid pandemic he has been giving evidence to the covid inquiry looking at how the police affected lockdown measures and police to those measures. just to give you some highlights of what he has had to say today, he talked about the fact that policing at this time was like going into uncharted territory. he painted these evocative images of seeing what had been happening in italy at the start of the pandemic and how the start of the pandemic and how the police there had to react and he said that the time the police had experienced measures like these before and they had to enact measures that hadn't set the second world war he said they would have to impact on people's liberty movement and lives. that was totally out of the police's experience at the time. he said also it was a very difficult thing for the police to have to police at type two metre distance. this was the requirement or the advice on the distance that had to be kept between individualsjust advice on the distance that had to be kept between individuals just to let you know you can go to the bbc live page on the bbc website and app where you can get more developments there from the covid inquiry. now... some more stories this hour. the row over comments by the home secretary suella braverman. she has been described as being out of control by a labour shadow minister yvette cooper after she accused scotland yard of playing favourites over its handling of pro—palestinian rallies writing in the times newspaper they of a march that is due to coincide with armistice day in london and saturday. suella braverman said right—wing process were properly stopped by the police while pro—palestinian mobs were permitted. the crime and policing minister chris bell responded to an urgent question in the house of commons from labour which is called on suella braverman to be sacked and said the police retained the confidence of the government. to reiterate that the police retain the confidence of the prime minister and the home secretary and i in using all their available powers, both under terrorism legislation and public order legislation, to prevent criminality and disorder and to prevent hate speech. and i would just say to the house, i've been contacted this morning repeatedly by members of thejewish community who are deeply apprehensive about what this weekend may bring. and i want to put on record that we expect the police to protect those members of communities in london, including thejewish community, who are feeling vulnerable this weekend. that was the crime and policing minister chris felt but shadow home secretary yvette cooper criticised the statement as well as the fact that the home secretary was not there to respond to her question. the home secretary sent a policing minister— the home secretary sent a policing minister to— the home secretary sent a policing minister to come to refuse to repeat a because _ minister to come to refuse to repeat a because we have seen her words attempting to rip up the operational independence of the police attacking bearing _ independence of the police attacking bearing impartiality in the crudest and most — bearing impartiality in the crudest and most partisan of ways deliberately undermining respect for the police _ deliberately undermining respect for the police at a sensitive time when they have — the police at a sensitive time when they have an importantjob the police at a sensitive time when they have an important job to deliberately seeking to create division — deliberately seeking to create division division around remembrance which _ division division around remembrance which the _ division division around remembrance which the policing minister rightly said she _ which the policing minister rightly said she be a time for communities to come _ said she be a time for communities to come together and pay our respects— to come together and pay our respects to use deliberately inflaming community tensions in the most dangerous of ways she is encouraging extremists on all side, at the _ encouraging extremists on all side, at the police when she should beat backing them. it is highly responsible and dangerous and no other— responsible and dangerous and no other home secretary would ever have done this _ other home secretary would ever have done this. �* , ., ., ., done this. let's go live to our olitical done this. let's go live to our political correspondent - done this. let's go live to our political correspondent ian i done this. let's go live to our i political correspondent ian watson who was joining us from westminster. these comments were published this morning but there has been strong reaction from labour but also from within the conservative party. i think what is interesting is that yvette cooper, a very robust and criticising the home secretary saying she was inflaming community tensions deliberately, undermining the police, but privately certainly many conservative mps would be saying something too distant from the labour front bench one of them has taught privately about the author of the home secretary, others have said they believe that home secretary is following her own agenda and her own leadership ambitions and is potentially out of control. it is interesting not everyone thinks that in the conservative party she would be appealing to many of the grass members and many members of parliament, saying she shouldn't be afraid to speak out in this way. the more interesting point i think that was made by yvette cooper was that she asked whether the comments made by suella braverman including the police picking favourites, describing pro—palestinian marches is how marches whether the prime minister had said this of our simply too weak to sack her we don't have a definitive answer on that but the latest we have heard is that there street don't want to talk about internal processes but are not denying the suggestion that this article and its entirety was signed off by numberio. article and its entirety was signed off by number 10. they appear to be distancing themselves from that article i think we will hear more about that later there will be a briefing of politicaljournalists on this and other topics in the next hour the question will come back to rishi sunak�*s door. also interesting that those ministers and cabinet ministers who have been in the media and the house of commons have not repeated suella braverman's where as yvette cooper was pointing out the policing minister did not talk about hate marches or the influence of islamists or other expressions which are being used by the home secretary. the transport secretary mark harper was as time of again this morning on the bbc weather he agreed with the comments made by suella braverman and he said he was answering the question in his own way but certainly talked about the operational independence of the police and also did not suggest that everyone going on these pro—palestinian marches were filled with hate. pointed out that despite some incidents many were actually law—abiding. i think this is a particularly tricky issue for rishi sunak how does he react he knows there are people who will be very critical of the pro—palestinian march going on saturday on armistice day if it was to moving is its home secretary on this issue it would not be universally popular and his own party but he seems to be beyond going these words rolling out her criticisms of the march two criticisms of the march two criticisms of the police themselves. it was the prime minister in a difficult position.— it was the prime minister in a difficult position. this is not the first time she _ difficult position. this is not the first time she has _ difficult position. this is not the first time she has made - difficult position. this is not the i first time she has made particularly strong comments that have led to a strong comments that have led to a strong reaction from people within the government over the opposition but there are now questions about her own future within the cabinet i understand. her own future within the cabinet i understand-— her own future within the cabinet i understand. there has always been talk of a reshuffle _ understand. there has always been talk of a reshuffle happening i understand. there has always been talk of a reshuffle happening at i talk of a reshuffle happening at some point and that would be a convenient time to look at this issue i think also from rishi sunak�*s point of view where he to try and move against her immediately and i don't know where he tried to move her against her immediately and then we see finance at the weekend which hopefully i would like to avoid but whether that to happen, i think there is a danger that suella braverman becomes something of a standard bearerfor braverman becomes something of a standard bearer for people braverman becomes something of a standard bearerfor people in braverman becomes something of a standard bearer for people in the right of her and would have even more freedom to speak out outside the cabinet. we will see what happens in terms of the future but it is certainly the case that there is a feeling among some conservative mps that she is running out of road because she has been so outspoken on a number of issues and certainly criticism from people on the right of the party as well the people we tend to call the one nation people who might be far more moderate in their rhetoric and opinions inside their rhetoric and opinions inside the conservative party, and comments she made about homelessness and rough sleeping being a lifestyle choice, there were voices publicly, not privately distancing themselves in the conservative party from that kind of rhetoric, but it does seem that day after day suella braverman has got a knack of dominating the headlines and overshadowing the prime minister's words on those issues. ., ~' , ., stay with us were we have some news coming in now. breaking news from our chief political correspondent henry zeffman. he has written into the newsroom at suella braverman did not make all the edits requested by downing street to power article in the times. about the policing of pro—palestinian protests. rishi sunak seen suggested amendments to the home secretary's draft but not all of them were applied to the eventual article published last night. that is from a government source speaking to the bbc and i said they are not commenting on internal processes. just some breaking news coming into the newsroom from henry zeffman chief political correspondent, saying that downing street did not make all the edits requested by downing street what is your reaction to that? it makes the situation even more difficult for rishi sunak because he suggested edits and therefore the home secretary has deliberately defied him we don't know what those edits were but certainly you could imagine if she was accusing the police of favouritism perhaps downing street might say that has particularly difficult when they are relying on the police to ensure people say this remembrance weekend when a pro—house march is going ahead. it could inflame tensions with the police on whom the government is relying on to ensure people are safe when i go on the march but also when they take part in any remembrance day commemorations. if she has refused to change that article and gone ahead with it it is interesting just to coat of armour minister nadine dorries is speaking on the bbc earlier, there theory is suella braverman is looking to be stacked, —— to be sacked she would be free to speak out against some of the policy of rishi sunak even more at the moment. this is serious because it suggests she is not sticking to collective cover responsibility and is deliberately ignoring advice from her boss but so so it is hard to conclude anything other than the fact that they will feel undermined by this. rishi sunak brought suella braverman back very swiftly to cabinet as home secretary after she was sacked by liz truss for sharing a document with somebody outside of the government and breaching the ministerial code he rehabilitated her political career so it is hard to believe that there is a great deal of happiness downing street about how she has expressed herself. there is agreement between downing street and the home office on concerns about this march going ahead. certainly in government where the police to ask for a ban on the march that is something they would consider and i imagine they would approve so once all of the substance they are in agreement but i guess number 10 would see the danger in some of their rhetoric being used by the home secretary and the fact that she had decided to go ahead and do that anyway, perhaps bringing into sharper focus whether she can remain as the cabinet member.— this news coming of the bbc. the bbc understands that suella braverman did not make all the edits requested by westminster about the policing of pro—palestinian protests and will bring you more news on that as soon as we get it here on the bbc. as we come to take you back to the story we have been following here over the last few hours, which is the covid inquiry and testimony that was shared by martin hewitt, the former chairman of the national police chief counsel and he was talking about police measures during the covid pandemic. we can cross live now to our correspondent who was there at the inquiry i was listening to the testimony. damian, what did you make of what mr hewitt had to say? you make of what mr hewitt had to sa ? ., . , you make of what mr hewitt had to sa ? ., ., , ., ,, you make of what mr hewitt had to sa ? ., . , . ~' . ., say? you have been talking about one issue to do with _ say? you have been talking about one issue to do with government and i issue to do with government and policing but here we have been hearing about another occasion when they were clearly issues and difficulties. martin hewitt was a senior officer in the metropolitan police, he became chair of the national police chiefs' council and he had a role in the pandemic and that's the body that was trying to coordinate police response across multiple forces, all around the country, and guide them through and what he was saying was that they could see as the pandemic approached, they could see in other countries like italy that these unprecedented measures were going to have to be taken to be brought in, essentially limiting people's liberty. he said nothing like that had happened since second world war. it was clear that this was going to fight every square metre of the country and also with an indefinite time line. the problems he pointed to that arose from that were first of
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