time now to digest the day's election campaigning — and there's a lot to digest today — here's newscast, with adam fleming and the team. chris, let me get this straight. i can't see anyone, but you can see both me and alex forsyth. that's right — although that's only because i was sent a little picture of the two of you, just to remind me what you looked like. with you in your studio and alex in hers, and me in mine. hang on, we last saw each other on thursday — you've forgotten already? no, not forgotten, ijust like to be, you know, reassured. you know what, though, alex? what was that game you play where you have to lie in the dark, and then... i don't know what game you're talking to, adam. i'm nervous about where you're going with it. what do you think i do when i'm lying in the dark with other people? less about your weekend. no, that game when you have to, like, shout something out, but not shout over each other, but you can't see anyone else? no. — what's that game? basically, that's what this podcast is going to be like — three people who can't see each other having to talk in sequence. but the main subject, i think, chris, will be nigel farage�*s... i can't even say his name. nigel farage�*s return of his return. his upgrade of his return. yeah, he's a master of political theatre, nigel farage. so, you know, i interviewed him less than a week ago — i think that's right, it was last tuesday. it was last tuesday where he said, "no, no, no, i'm not standing. there's no point because it's too late, you've got to spend six months at least working a seat, blah, blah, blah," and kept talking about how his eye was being drawn across the atlantic towards towards the us race, presidential race in the autumn. and here we are, hey, presto, a week later he is running. oh, and he's become leader of reform uk — so that's a bit more news into the party today. and that means that he'll get more profile and a greater platform during the campaign, as opposed to being honorific president, which was his title prior to today. and so, he's grabbed the attention last week, he's grabbed the attention today, and he'll play a far bigger role, i think, now in the next five—and—a—bit weeks than he otherwise would have done it. and he was already playing quite a role. and, hey, presto, we've got loads to talk about in this episode of newscast. newscast from the bbc. hello, it's adam in the studio. and it's chris, in salford. and it is alex, in westminster. before we dive into the nigel farage news, what news were you working on today, alex? well, i was working on what the conservatives probably wanted to talk about today before said nigel farage news — which is a plan that the conservatives have come up with to rewrite the equality act — which was an act that dates back to 2010, and effectively it enshrined in law the rights of some protected characteristics. and one of them is sex — and what the conservatives have been saying is that their plan is they want to change that to make it clear it refers to biological sex. and the reason they say that this is needed is because they say make it clear that single—sex spaces — so think things like, you know, domestic abuse refuges or rape crisis centres, or even public toilets — it will make it clear that they can be for only biological women and girls, and not for people who are born male — even if those people do go through the process, which means they legally change their sex even on their birth certificate. so the conservatives are basically saying there needs to be clarity in this area, because there have been court cases and legal challenges, and a lot of confusion about this. so they were going to rewrite the equality act. now the other parties, labour and the lib dems say, "actually you don't need to do that because there's already provision in the law that there can be single—sex spaces. you just need to issue a bit more guidance." they accuse the conservatives are just stoking up tensions about this issue, accuse them of creating culture wars, said it was a completely unnecessary thing. and the other part of this actually is that the conservatives also said that, when it comes to this issue, legislation should be made in westminster. now you can imagine that left the snp pretty unhappy, because the snp said it should be up to the governments of different nations to have a say in this process, as well. and you remember there was a back and forth when in scotland, the scottish government tried to change the law on this to make it easier for people to change their legal sex — and in the, end it was blocked by westminster. so the snp bit of pushback as well. so anyway, look, that was a very long—winded way of saying that's what the conservatives wanted to talk about. but, as so often happens in election campaigns, that was taken over later in the day by that nigel farage news. also, that's something i've been looking into for quite a while on anti—social, on radio 4 — the current series of which has just come to an end, but there's lots of back catalogue to listen to on bbc. good plug, never missed a chance. and, yeah, this hasn'tjust come out of nowhere. there's been a debate for quite a long time about whether you needed to clarify the equality act, and what was the best way of doing that. and just the fact that the discussion about sex and gender had moved on quite a lot from when the equality act was passed in 2010, when the decade before, gender recognition certificates were introduced. and so, it's notjust come out of nowhere. and also, the equalities and human rights commission had been looking into this earlier in the year, and had recommended that something be done around this — although people will then say to the conservatives, "well, if it was so important to you, why didn't you do it when you were in power, rather than promising to do it if you're returned to power?" now, chris, talking about things that people started off the day doing, you started off the day talking about the military and defence spending, and particularly labour's triple—lock. everyone�*s got a triple—lock of their own now. yes, here comes another little bit of political language. so, yeah, labourwere at the fusilier museum, in bury, in greater manchester, doing the whole "please trust us on defence" routine. now there's been a fair build—up to all of this. we've seen keir starmer go out and see british nato's troops in estonia a couple of times. he went out to nato hq himself, in brussels, on an occasion, he went to barrow in furness, in cumbria, where british nuclear submarines are made. he has been going out of his way to try and say, "look, whatever happened under labour in the recent past, iejeremy corbyn" — and recall that he served injeremy corbyn�*s shadow cabinet — "labour has changed since now." labour have often historically faced a sort of battle when it comes to credibility, believability, and trust on defence. it's not traditionally a strong subject for the party. then you throw into the mixjeremy corbyn — who was a sceptic about nuclear weapons, sceptic about nato, the defence alliance — and labour were trounced at the last general election. and what keir starmer has been trying to do pretty much ever since he got the job is to reassure people that a labour government under his leadership could be trusted with national security. and there's a kind of bigger strategy here — so what he's trying to do is acknowledge that, if you can't be trusted — this is their view at a senior level in the labour party — if you can't be trusted on defence and the economy, you might as well pack your bags and go home, because anything else you say, no one's going to pay you a bit of attention because they're not going to elect you because they don't trust you on national defence and the economy, national security, and the economy. so that's what is the underlying sort of foundational drive behind, as they hope, nailing trust on defence. a, because they say they believe it and b, because it underpins alongside the economy everything else. so what happened today was that keir starmer and john healey, the shadow defence secretary, gathered at this military museum, surrounded by everything thatjust sort of oozed military. and then, there was a semi—circle behind them of labour candidates who are ex—military, many of them wearing their medals from their service in the forces. and what we heard from keir starmer actually wasn't anything new for people who follow every kind of cough of politics — but it's an election campaign, so he wanted to say it on that stage. and so, they're saying that they are committed to the uk's nuclear weapons system, they are committed to defence, they want to spend 2.5% of national income on defence — albeit they won't actually put a date on it. the conservatives promise to do that by 2030. so they're trying to do the kind of reassuring comfort—blanket thing — whereas the conservatives, as alex was talking about, have done a whole load of announcements that are kind of like a firework. they create news, they're saying something new and different, and distinctive, and that generates headlines. labour's strategy in this first couple of weeks has been to almost do the opposite — to reassure, to double down on what they've already been saying, to not create hostages to fortune, and to try and be reassuring. and reassuring is the kind of key thing they hope, they hope they can secure in the minds of a decent chunk of voters from the stuff they're saying on defence. now, what i've just done there is broker a news compromise. because i know there are people that love hearing about nigel farage, and i know there are people that do not love hearing about nigel farage, and maybe think we talk about him too much — even though i think it's prettyjustifiable. so what i did was, we had a bit of nigel farage fireworks at the start of this episode, and now we can have like a sort of more like slow burning bonfire of nigel farage stuff. with in between some marshmallows of other news from the election campaign gently toasted on that fire. anyway, right... i don't know where this metaphor is going, out of control. you do know that he didn't call a november election, right? we're not actually in bonfire night. yeah, i'm still on the tramlines of the old time line. anyway, so, alex, we'll get chris's analysis in a second, and we'll also hear the actual moment where nigel farage committed all this news. but we knew something was going on from mid—morning, didn't we? because the farage—ster... i don't think it's going to work. nigel farage tweeted himself, in classic nigel farage style, that he had something big. yeah, so it wasjust that kind of... and this is where nigel farage knows how to play the game, work the system, whatever you want to call it. he has been around for an awful long time in politics, and what he's always managed to do is find a way to generate the headlines, find a way to put himself at the centre of it. i mean, love him or hate him, whatever you want to say — and there are definitely people that do both — he is a kind of master of the game. and he played that game this morning with this kind of, was it like a four—word tweet, or something like big announcement? yeah, "major announcement — emergency." emergency thing. and, you know, of course, what that does is just set every journalist off on their phones trying to work out what it's going to be. and, because there had been this thing where he'd ruled out standing, but there was still, ithink, you know, there was a sense that maybe he will because the deadline is not until friday — which is also my birthday, i'lljust drop that in now, in case you want to send me a present — i think thatjust set the kind of hares running in, the excitement buzzing, and then everyone was like, "what was going on?" and i mean, i, like everybody else, put in the calls and was told, "0h, we don't know." but i was also from somebody in reform ukjust said like "classic farage theatre". and that's exactly what it was, and that's what he does. right, let's hear the moment, then. so this was just after 4pm on monday afternoon, and this is nigel farage doing the double, announcing that he's going to stand as a candidate in clacton, in essex, and also that he would, from that second on, live take—over as leader of reform uk — basically booting out richard tice, who'd been doing thatjob for most of that party's existence. i've changed my mind. it's allowed, you know! it's not always a sign of weakness. it could potentially. be a sign of strength. so i am going to stand in this election. - i'll be launching my candidacy- at midday tomorrow, in the essex seaside town of clacton. well, there we go. and, once we have a full list of candidates for that constituency — which, as alex said, will be on her birthday on friday. what a great present, alex, you'll be able to go to the bbc news website and see a full list. that's my plan. 0k, chris, give us your big—picture thoughts. he's the master of the arc ofjeopardy news management, the big reveal. so, as alex was saying, that tantalising, teasing tweet that had politicaljournalists agog with what he might be about to do. so, managing to extract every morsel of excitement, uncertainty out of the moment. you know, as he was walking into the venue, our colleague lucy manning was asking him, are you going to stand? and he's teasing, "who knows? maybe i've not decided yet" — knowing that that contributes in the packaging up of the news into that sense of the drama that surrounds nigel farage. so, he knows exactly what he's doing. he's one of the best political communicators of his generation, and this is the latest case study in it. he was able to extract attention and news coverage a week ago when he said he wouldn't be standing, but he'd be popping up around the country campaigning for reform uk. here we are, less than a week later, extracting more news and attention out of saying the exact opposite. as i said a couple of minutes ago, by taking on the party leadership, that will afford him a greater platform because he is a party leader of a party that is polling as it is which, when it's crunched through the various kind of processes that determine from the broadcasters how much coverage different parties get, will mean that reform will get a certain amount — and he, as the leader, will be able to justifiably, if you like, front that. there was going to be a limit on how much would probably see of him as the honorary president. there is now a race in clacton that will fascinate a good number of our fellow politicaljournalists, because it'lljust be interesting, can he do it? can he make it to westminster at the eighth time of asking? and then also — and perhaps more importantly than that, in terms of the outcome of of this general election, as opposed to what might happen, the other side of it — his capacity to potentially — and let's see — transform, or not, reform's prospects. and what he can certainly do — and this is happening already as we record newscast — is frighten the whatseis out of plenty of conservatives. because there he is, with his jocular kind of casual, yet devilish torment of the tories — a party of which he used to be a member — because they fear a disproportionate number of their recent voters are lured towards reform uk, and already were. and now, nigel farage at the helm, and the prospect that, because of his capacity to generate attention, and to be, to some, a magnet in terms of looking towards him, towards the other end of the magnet, pushing them away, can be, yeah, dangerous for the conservatives. as if rishi sunak needed any more kind of grim news after some opinion polls in the last few days suggesting things look already really bleak for him. of course, it's just worth saying — i mean, what is interesting is that when nigel farage was saying why he wouldn't stand, part of the reason, he said, is because he couldn't get a campaign together in time, and that, you know, it caught him by surprise and all the rest of it. so there is another element to this, and that element is the fact that now, he's going to have to try and win a constituency seat — because he has failed seven times before, and he has failed, despite the fact he's thrown quite a lot at it. and when ukip, the party that he previously led, one of the forerunners of reform uk, was kind of riding pretty high, he still wasn't able to translate that into a parliamentary seat win. so i think there is also massive risk here for nigel farage now, because if he doesn't win on the eighth attempt at this point, i mean, that doesn't look good for him. and there's also the question about how much he can dedicate to campaigning across the country when he's attempting to win a constituency seat. and there is also a third question about the fact we do rightly say — and chris has pointed this out — he's been an influential figure in british politics, that it goes without any doubt, and there are very nervous conservatives, and there is a possibility it does have a significant impact on the conservative vote. but you also have to remember nigel farage is a hugely divisive figure, and so, as much as this might galvanise support, it could also galvanise opposition to this party, because he does divide opinion. so i think there are risks here, as well. i've been slithering all afternoon — a good scottish word for not being able to make up your mind — about whether this is a strength move or a weakness move by nigel farage. i mean, he even himself brought up that distinction. and for all the reasons you've just given there, strength move, particularly the fact that it means that rishi sunak will now have to come up with even more reform voter—friendly policies, like national service and the triple—lock plus for pensions, to sort of stop even more conservative potential voters becoming reform potential voters. so that's the strength thing. but then, you look at it from the end of the telescope, and whether it's whether it is a strong thing or not because, 0k, well, is this not a suggestion, then, that maybe rishi sunak strategy of squashing potential reform voters by love—bombing them with policies was actually working, and so reform are having to kind of up their game now to counter that? also, itjust shows you, i mean, maybe nigel farage�*s politicaljudgment isn't spot—on if he's had to just massively u—turn on his two big decisions about how to fight this election in less than a week. also, does this mark the end of the experiment of trying to make reform uk finally, finally a party that was more than one person — nigel farage — and more than just one policy — talking about immigration and brexit all the time? actually, that experiment only lasted a couple of months, and now they've gone back to basically, you could argue, being a vehicle for nigel farage that mainly talks about immigration. you know what? no, no, you first. i wasjust going to say briefly a couple a couple ofjust points tonight. axactly as you say, adam, what is interesting is that ukip again spent a long time trying to break away from that nigel farage branding and the and the accusation that they were a single—man, single—issue, party. and reform uk, part of their strategy was never that they thought they were going to win loads of seats in this election. it was about trying to build for the next election, they would have argued, you know, what they wanted to do, it was a longer—term thing, the strategy that they had. and i wonder now if what this does to reform uk in the longer term, never mind this election, is again leave them having to do exactly as ukip did, exactly as brexit party did, whic