the west was hoped to create a better life there was a promise and america are hello again and welcome. it's time to break down the big stories with some smart people. today, we're asking, after a shocking debate, performance should president biden dropped out of the rights and if biden laws did donald trump actually win we'll discuss his not so perfect debate then stamp of approval will find out who's okay with the new higher price to send a letter in the mail. the battle is here and ready to go. so sit back, relax box, and let's talk about up first a party and panic democrats doing some serious soul searching after president biden's wobbly debate against donald trump with many of his supporters. now asking whether it's time for the 81-year-old to bow out of the race i don't debate as well as i used to what i know what i do know. >> i know how to tell the truth joe biden path on the trail proclaiming he's not going anywhere not intend to win this taken november resisting, at least for now, a tsunami or behind the scenes calls from democrats for him to step aside. there is a deep, a wide, and a very aggressive panic in the democratic party. a frightened reaction to biden's disastrous debate. first the week, raspy voice the vacant stares and to know where president biden less than ten minutes into the debate, biden forgot what he was talking about to do with if we finally beat medicare and as the debate went on, he ran out of things to say even about protecting social security, that you still have 82 seconds left, worried supporters talking privately about replacing biden at the democratic convention. >> if he wants stepped down. but using a new nominee this late won't be easy unless joe biden decides himself to step down. there is no feasible way to replace him. vice president harris, just one of the high-profile democrats being floated as a replacement but for now, she's busy plan to clean up by who's match. >> i'm not going to spend all night with you talking about the last 90 minutes. >> when i've been watching the last three-and-a-half years of performance. here with me today podcast or an author qarrah swishy, editor in chief of the dispatch and columnist at the la times, jonah goldberg new york times journalist and podcast host, lulu garcia-navarro, an executive director of the american conservative magazine, kirk mills. welcome everyone, especially curt, who was a first timer. so qarrah every time over the last few months that i've raised the possibility that biden somehow might exit this race. you've said it's not going to happen after this debate. should he dropout we'll a dropout last night, i thought perhaps i was on a plane during the debate on purpose, i didn't want to see x. >> i felt somewhat remember i said last week someone was going to fall and break a hip or someone did. so i was worried about the thing, but when i saw it last night, i was i thought, yes. then i saw him a rally today should be out. he should be out. and then i sum at the rally, unlike some of the waffle house right after the waffle house, biden is an excellent biden. today at the rally, he was very vibrant, so i don't think he's going to, so i don't think it really matters if he should or shouldn't. i don't think he's absolutely not going to split that what changed your mind? i mean, he bombed in front of 50 million people and because he reads well off a teleprompter that persuades you he should lead the free world for four years. >> no, i think he i think they were making their talking point was that the past 3.5 years he's done a very good job and i think he could make that case two people and one of the things that did persuade me a little bit is all the pundits were in panic. >> they absolutely were. but then i was noticing a lot of stuff from voters and they had a different reaction than pundits. and i just don't quite know what the actual reaction is beyond the washington bubble jonah, as a never trump conservative, should biden dropout. and willy, he definitely should drop out. i think if you actually believe the things that democrats say about trump being and existential threat to democracy then you should do everything that you can within the law and within the rules to put forward the best person who has a chance of beating donald trump joe biden, is losing right now after that debate, he's going to do worse i'm in the polls and i find there's also just the more basic question about whether he's actually up to the job when robert hur, the special counsel, said that he was too old and too it was denounced as this outrageous partisan hit it is now the defense of joe biden that he's an old guy is really, you know, he has bad moments and all that kind of thing. i don't think that reading from a teleprompter is the same thing of having to actually answer questions for 90 minutes without any notes using your brain and your recall and i i think he's not qualified for the job or to be the case candidate, then there's the question of the party perhaps acting on its own. we've looked at the rules and biden's delegates to the democratic convention are not legally bound to vote for him, but they were handpicked by his campaign. and our presumably loyal to him, lulu is a practical matter can democrats force biden out if he doesn't want to drop out of the race no, i don't think they can force him out. >> this is something that has to come from him and it has to come from the upper echelons of the democratic party if indeed that is the decision that is being made. and i see no evidence of that. i mean, i think there's a lot of panic, but i don't see any evidence at the top of the party that they are willing to do that right now they really don't have their hands are tied. there's really not a whole lot that they can do about it, but but their hands are tied. i mean, the delegates are not legally bound. they could all sit there going to have an internal coup in the democratic party to shove out joe biden. it's not going to happen. so to even sort of speculate about that, i think is it's irresponsible haven't occurred. >> let me pick up on that because i want to pick up on something that jonah's said. if you believe as the democrats for fast, the donald trump has an existential threat to democracy why wouldn't they, even if biden doesn't want them to you throw up on the convention and pick somebody who they feel more confident can perhaps ward off this threat of donald trump. >> all right, i guess i just see it in direct opposite manner. if we they do believe their own rhetoric, you're talking about the least democratic process possible. we had an open primary. he could have been challenged to health problems. we're not i knew he was not challenged seriously. there's the dean phillips person who got 1% of the vote. yeah. yeah. precisely. and now we want to have a panic convention three weeks into it. i'll also the regulations i believe they decided to do it over zoom in july. so we're talking about doing rnc convention over zoom. i can't imagine anything less than socratic than what's being proposed there. i, i wholeheartedly agree this is this is says fantasy stuff. this is good for tv. but biden's not going anywhere. i always think it's very funny how he doubted he is. this is actually the most implacable opponent trump has had. trump beat hillary clinton. did you watch the debate? yeah. i mean, were you not troubled by biden's performance to trouble like an american, i mean, like he obviously a general tendency my ideal president would not be in his early 80s, but he does seem like kind of fine. it's sort of by the line that he has a cold. i don't approve of a lot of decisions he made in his presidency, but he won the vote and he won the vote of his party in the spring. and i see no reason why he should be defrocked because he had a raspy voice last night. >> jonah, let's just play this out. if both biden somehow exits the race, either of his own volition or a coup inside the party is there a democrat who do you think would have a better chance of beating donald trump? >> i think gretchen whitmer, whatever pretty good chance of michigan, i think the governor of pennsylvania, i think at governor in general, governors of the last politicians as a category in this country that actually care about, first of all governing and dealing with a majority of their own voters and know how to talk to their voters in a certain way. >> because they don't have to nationalize their politics. do you think it's just, it's too late for all of oh, it'd be very hard. also, gretchen whitmer and i've interviewed her recently for her new book and she is a charismatic leader. she's done a lot in michigan she's brought in a trifecta for the state. i mean, there's a lot of enthusiasm around her, but frankly, she pulls it 5% nationally hey, people don't know. she'll the warning, right? but the, but the idea that they're going to get to know her between now and november or any other of these candidates is i think they know joe biden and don't like him. that's the fundamental problem. and i don't care about that. if there's like the end of this democratic party has to be internally democratic. that is an idea that goes back to 1972. parties can not normal. we're the only advanced industrialized democracy in the world. who's parties have voluntarily giving up the ability to pick their own candidates, not going to happen by the way, you democrats are fair and good at cuz that's sort of the gop's speciality. but it's not going to happen. that's it is a washington fantasy. it's just not happening in real, not as fantastic as a few days ago. and one i noticed that the person not mentioned in this conversation is the current vice president wright kamala harris do you see any possibility of biden somehow is exits this race that the democratic party's, it now stands would pass two over. the first black woman, vice president. >> i mean, they could i'm she has the best known of them, right. i mean, of all of them, she's the best known. so she would be the natural person to pick. and but i think there's quite a few cannons, there's gavin newsom, there's gavin newsom probably is her biggest competitor would be my guess between the two of them again, it's not going to happen. it's just you're sticking with it. i just i was watching a lot of the statements from barak obama, and some others and i just don't so not going to say it in public. they're gonna go to women friday. >> sure then there's the other guy on the stage that'll trump may have won that debate, but did he show signs his character? 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we are my friend. we are yes. >> asleep. at night on a mattress from mattress firm. i sleep at the july 4th sale, say $500 on temporaries, mattresses, and get a $300 instant gift, get matched at mattress firm asleep at night. i'm in circle in paris and this is cnn while joe biden's poor debate was the big story, donald trump had. >> issues are bezalel amid talk a porn stars and golf scores crump shoulders, willingness to lie and be nasty, which may limit how much he can make of this moment we had a big victory against a man that really is looking to destroy our country. >> he's the worst, he's the most corrupt, the most incompetent president of the history of our country, donald trump camp i'm painting in virginia, looking to seize the momentum after the president's week debate, it's hard to get any word in with this cloud four years ago, trump had his own problems constantly interrupting by because the question, the question is left, would you show this time he turned in a more disciplined performance? hitting his issues like a illegal immigration hard. they're killing our people in new york and california in every state in the union because we don't have borders anymore. every state is now a border. but even as he played by the rules and trump repeated dozens of his favorite lies. >> a relatively small number of people that went to the capitol in many cases were ushered in by the police. >> and when he had the president on the robes, he offered mean personal attacks instead of a positive vision for the future. but for three-and-a-half years, we're living in hell joe, our country is being destroyed as you and i sit up here and waste a lot of time on this debate. little-o, i think it's clear for the first segment, we all think biden lost could trump win? no, trump did not win and it is only because biden was so spectacularly bad that trump seemed coherent in any fashion. i mean, let's just look at a few of the things that trump said. he was talking about black jobs. what are black jobs? i don't know. does anyone else you know what black jobs is? he was talking about using palestinian as a slur he, offended latinos by some of his claims about the border. and what hispanics do when they come to this country. so, you know, at every turn burn, he was offensive he dug into this vision of america, which is dystopian and untrue and i think that ultimately, if biden hadn't been so incapable of even taking softball questions and not turning them around. we wouldn't be having this discussion if we can put aside biden's perfectly chorman's did trump have a good debate and did he enhances standing with voters? >> yeah. no, i think he did quite well. i think at the end of the day since we have had four years of both of these gentlemen. so much of this sort of average voters or impression will be as which one of these? katz look more like a national father and trump seemed very balanced last night, even if you don't think he's a balanced individual, i think he was very strong specifically on the issue of russia versus ukraine. he argued that he will wrap the you believe, i mean, come on saying in 24 hours he's going to have the ukraine tuition wrapped up in a bow, takes off before he takes office and you think that's a call back to the reagan pledge were in 1980 and also the stand up, but it, but it coming from trump sounds, delusional. well, i mean biden was talking about how fruitiness trying to reconstitute the soviet union or something. >> he's very clearly more committed to to the ideological fastest of the war. he couldn't, he definitely couldn't do worse than biden trump is not ideologically committed to the war going on, which strikes me as an improvement on the stems. jonah, if biden somehow doesn't leaves the race, could another democrat stand a better chance of beating him than biden does yeah absolutely. >> i mean, it depends on the demogrant. i think one of the one of the reasons why i think you guys are probably right, it won't happen is because is the kamala harris problem she a lot of people don't think that she could be trump. and so that's a backstop. you really had to get two people out of the way, not just one but i think it's obvious that trump won last night it was his best performance ever, which is again grading on a curve. but all debates are graded on a curve you it is all relative. and the census and you weren't disturbed by all the lies, all the mainland i think donald trump is a question stuff where he was talking about democrats murdering babies after they come out of the womb. i look a look at you says wrong things that any lines i'm not going to defend our trophic he's a morally, the foreign came in blinds. a lot of people picked up on the mendacious snus. >> i've heard it from normal we've been saying for months or ten years, we pundits constantly saying the laws of political gravity are going to bring trump back down to earth. and the problem is, he does not fit the laws of political gravity. he fits the laws of celebrity gravity. and people price this stuff into him and they don't care. and he did better in this debate than a lot of people predicted and in a boxing match, if one guy loses, the other guy wins and that's what happened last one i picked up on this issue of celebrity gravity because while biden had his problems, he did land a solid punch discussing trump's personal issues lead adding to this remarkable exchange how many billions of dollars do you owe and civil penalties for molesting a woman in public for doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star on the night and while your wife was pregnant what what, what are you talking about? >> you have the morals of an alleycat d