Of power that experts say is worse than watergate. The doj has been caught surveiling certainly people, club a minor, which the former president s top aides where are eager to defend. Even Attorney General barr is denying any involvement or knowledge, rather than spinning a defense. Ditto for trumps first Attorney General justice. Both just claimed they didnt knows about the putinesque plots. Now, that is the context for the further fallout and news that i can get into with our experts and with you tonight. We have doj moves that have become kind of like a legal orphan, because barr and sessions and all the people in charge for trump, so proud of all the trumpy things they did, they dont want anything to do with this. No one wants to claim these things. Now there are reports that the surveillance also crept inside the Trump White House itself, including surveying white house kuhn don mcgahn, the doj hitting up apple to get his record and then an unusual gag order. Two sources tells New York Times that was used against news outlets as well as trumps top lawyer. Mcgahn was even testifying recently before congress. It mean that he was left in the dark about all of it until recently. The key place for accountability here is the house, with Supplier Pelosi has a firmer majority in the senate. Shes emphasizing that, while nixon famously had a list, donald trump got the levers of government to go even farther, to get people on the list. What the administration did, the Justice Department, the leadership of the former president goes even beyond richard nixon. Nixon had an enemies list. This is about undermining the rule of law, and for this Attorneys General, barr and sessions, at least two, to say that they didnt know anything about it is beyond belief. So we will have to have them come under oath to testify about that. Going under oath puts legal pressure on those doj vets. News also breaking that a Top Trump Holdover at the Justice Department is now out, leaving this week. Doj saying that was long in the works. Biden Attorney General garland is talking with adam schiff, a keep intelligence player who also has a double role of bubble a target of this trumpera surveillance. As of all those supposed denials, you have to keep an eye on the details. Bill barr says hes quote, not aware of any congressmans records being sought in a leaked case, quote. That could leave surveillance that sought other records and swept up materials from congress, and those two words not aware are not mr. Barr aapproves that he never questioned, oversaw any surveyian. Rod rosenstein, remember him . He hasnt put anything in writing yet amid st. All these orphan activities. The open questions are pretty clear who did approve the surveyians . New york times is reporting that they did approve it. Another question, why did the doj take this huge grave measure of these gag orders long after the surveillance ended and the probably didnt an turn of nil good leads for the illegal leaks . Why didnt the doj, or even federal judges who are nominally independent offer more skepticism no leak probe that just happened to follow hundreds of Donald Trumps tweets, demanding an attack on aday schiff. You dont need to be Inspector Poirot to see the links here. Why is this all coming out now . I dont know. I have clues, but we dont have nearly enough of investigations independently done yet. We know without the gag orders being lifted, this thing could have stayed buried for a long time, maybe forever. Then the other question as we started reporting when we first dug into this big, Big Scandal Friday and it is a trump scandal. It started with trump and his calls to turn the doj into his dirty tricks operation center. So make no mistake about that, but that doesnt mean that there arent other people here with a job to do. So the question is, what is Merrick Garland going to do with the doj that went farther than anyone publicly knew to potential abuse power and kneecap opponents. Doj officials were also pressed to help overturn the election, to abuse legal powers to give barr cover in that Mueller Probe and keel many more things secret that apparently garland has not yet overruled. There are areas where garland hats not yet reversed everything. After foul years of hearing, this is not normal. Were seeing it together through this story and others. It is hard to return to normal, while pretending that none of those four years happened, or pretending that none should be met with fact finding and consequences. It is the doj, after all, law and order, rules and sanctioning. To do anything less would turn the last four years into a Training Exercise for the next wouldbe autocrat that gets into power and sal investigates what the doj can do and get away with, if they get away with it. Is that hyperbole . Is this a news anchor trying to scare you . I try to give you all the facts i can without any unnecessary fear. Let me be clear about this final fact. If you have been looking around the country lately, you would have have to have noticed how many up and coming trumpists to look at a blueprint to build on. Neal katyal was a former official, and now a msnbc a huge big happy birthday to donald trump, whose present appears to be a good oldfashioned nixonian abuse of power scandal, which will hopefully detract from his ongoing criminal probes. Your leadup is right. Theres a lot of unknown as here. Its not helpful that bill barr, jeff session and Matthew Whitaker are like bronte sisters of misleading statements. Either one is you have a Line Prosecutor who accidentally got ahold of these records, never told anyone in leadership about them, and managed to get four years of gag orders without them. Thats possibility one. Possibility two is one of the trump Attorneys General is not being fully forthright about whats happening. Ill trust bill barrs statements and denials about as much as ill trust his summary of the Mueller Report. One thing is that, the electronics find. The other is the gad orders. These gag orders have been in place since 2017, for four years. Why . Right now a lot of the focus is on the electronic spying stuff, which you say is potential putinesque, but its the coverup thats interesting to me. You can have a gag order with an ongoods investigation, but for four years . I think Something Else is happening here. Merrick garland i think is right to lift the gag order, to have the Inspectors General investigate this, but thats not enough. I think we need a full true reckoning of what happened at the Justice Department over the last four years. I think Merrick Garland can do that. This isnt litigation. This isnt something where hes inheriting past positions. We need the American People to know everything the Justice Department did especially when it comes to spying on members of congress and the opposition. Neal, when the times report sorting that the Attorneys General did sign off on it, what is your reaction as someone who has worked inside doj. Something like this would ordinarily require at least Deputy Attorney general signoff, if not Attorney General. When i was acting associate Attorney General, i couldnt have done this. You needed someone at the very pinnacle to do it. Now, what i think the possibility is, is that these records were swept in by mistake. They were actually targeting someone else, then they learned about schiff and schiffs family or whatever, and eric well well, and evidencely don mcgahn. Maybe thats a possibility. Ordinarily i would be inclined to trust the Justice Department. Theres a presumption of regularity to Justice Department action, which courts have said, when theyre taking action, its a Law Enforcement investigation, you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. The problem is with these folks in power, theres a presumption of irregularity. You cant give them the benefit of the doubt. Just the part we know is so horrible, so offensive to Justice Department traditions that we dont give them that benefit of the doubt. As you say, if you follow that particular theory that perhaps it was swept up, that would potentially go to why mr. Barr, who is known to be quite parsimonious, that he never saw this. That have doesnt mean he doesnt have responsibility. Take a listen to classic barr, on the issue for these kind of probes. Has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone . Yes or no, please, sir. Um, the president or anybody else. It seems you would remember Something Like that and be able to tell us. Yeah, but im trying to grapple with the word suggest. There have been discussions of matters out there that they have not asked me to open an investigation, but perhaps they suggested is it. I wouldnt say suggest. Hinted . I dont know. Inferred . You dont know . Yeah. Okay. Lita . Playing dumb is something barr has done consistently acting like he doesnt know anything that senator harris was asking about. Even the suggest at the start of the show is fully in line with his playbook. Hes going to object fuss indicate, dodge any kind of direct questions here. Thats why he gets to congress under oath explicitly asking about scenes. Did you revive this investigation . Did you authorize these gag orders to be continued for four years . What exactly did you do . And when did you do it, are the line of questions he neither to get, sessions needs to get, honestly anybody who was in the doj perpetuating this weaponization of the institution on behalf of trump. Its no secret that barr and sessions wording knowingly for trumps own agenda and acted as his own personal advisers and attorneys while serves as Attorneys General. Now its time to get to the truth of it all, and doing that through congress will be essential. When i read about the inspector generals report and their investigation, yes, it can take time, it can take months and potentially years, but they cannot compel former doj employees to comply or engage them in that investigation, thus doubling the importance of Congress Getting involved and getting to the bottom of this, ari. Juanita, what is the challenge for democrats, in particular the biden administration, that wants to turn the page. Politically theyve been clear they dont want to live in the past in this, but part of what seems to be necessary doesnt seem to be in their shortterm interests, but in the u. S. Interests. I think thats absolutely right, ari, especially when we have these continuous attacks from republicans on our democracy. This is yet another example of how trump leveraged his who you, his administration to further dismantle key principles within our institutions. White Bidens White House may not want to focus on this, this is something they can empower congress to, and collect the information, and that it is something that can be a steady drumbeat as elections continue. This is honestly, as schumer said, the sins of this Administration Keep piling up. We all deserve to know how high it goes. Sure, theres a way that biden and his team can focus on their agenda and moving bills and legislation and moving forward, advocating for the things the American Public needs, but the American Public needs also the truth of how much trump rotted our institutions. Juanita and neal on the big story, thank you for kicking us off. We have a lot more. President biden with a new warning for putin as they get ready for their summit. Also work respect with the trump and the grand jury probe continues. And The One And Only martin sheen tonight. Stay with us. Martin sheen tonight. Stay with us introducing the new citi custom cash℠ card, a different kind of card that Rewards Rashida where her spending is trending. Just ask overly confident diy Rashida Rashida wait, was this the right wall . Or last minute gift shopping Rashida Rashida im putting a bow on it wow. Even sneaking away for a vacay rashida. Rashida shhh ive earned this . From home improvement, drugstores, select travel and more earn 5 cash back that automatically adjusts to your top eligible spend category, up to 500 spent each billing cycle. President Biden Going Offscript on his first overseas script, taking aims at republicans. This is during the nato press conference. The leadership of the Republican Party is fractured. The trump wing of the party is the bulk of the party, but it makes up a significant minority of the American People. It is disappointing that so many of my republican colleagues in the senate, who i know know better, have been reluctant to take on, for example, an investigation, because theyre worried about being primaried. The president there speaking to questions about all sorts of issues, including domestic politics. This is his first trip as president abroad. Hes also discussing americas commitment to nato. The u. S. Commitment to article 5 of the Nato Treaty Is Rock Solid and unshakeable. Its a Sake Secret Commitment article 5 is the nato bedrock. A strong part of modern multilateral policy. Biden also acknowledging theres a challenge here to work with adversaries than the u. S. Will retaliate against russia when warranted. Im not looking for conflict with russia, but we will respond if russia continues its harmful activities. We will not fail to defend the transatlantic alliance. Hes bright, hes tough, and i have found that he is a, as they say when you used to play ball, a worthy adversary. What a difference a president makes. Its a very different approach to vladimir putin. This will be one of the biggest tests of the biden Foreign Policy when the two sit down on wednesday. We have a lot more on our program. Stay with us. Well be right back. Our program. Stay with us well be right back. I never needed anyone. Front desk. Yes, hello. Im so. Please hold. Those days are done. I got you. All by yourself. Go with us and find millions of flexible options. 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