maybe pandas will return to the national zoo at some point. >> tom, thanks. that's going to do it for us. "katy tur reports" starts right now. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. it might have been a rocky week for president biden in the polls, but democrats are doing just fine at the ballot box. so what gives? in virginia, republican governor glenn youngkin failed to get gop control of the state house. democrats there held on to the senate chamber and regained the house. how much of it had to do with youngkin's bet on a quote, reasonable 15-week abortion ban. in deep red kentucky, democratic governor andy beshear was able to win a second term, beating out his trump-backed rival, daniel cameron. was it abortion that helped keep beshear in office or was it trump who helped keep cameron out? in reddening ohio, it is clear voters roundly rejected republican efforts to restrict abortion, voting to enshrine the right into the state's constitution. all of it great news for democrats, but is it also great news for president joe biden? joining us now, nbc news senior political editor, mark murray, who was at the site of tonight's gop debate on nbc news. mark, good to have you. these polls came on, i guess it was yesterday. or two days ago. the voting came last night. delp square that cireor me. the voting and polls don't seem to make muchsense? >> yeah, katy, i think the easiest way is that two things can be right tame, and true at the same time. on the one hand, democrats have been overperforming in these types of elections, pretty much going back to the 2022 midterms. and one thing that has certainly aided them is the issue of abortion, after roe v. wade's overturn, democrats have used that as a galvanizing force. the other thing that has happened in these kind of off year elections or special elections or midterms is the overall political environment that there's kind of been a realignment where the democratic party has typically ended up being the party that's more engaged on elections. they're the more educated and they have used that to their advantage. but the other thing that can actually still be true, katy, is that 2024 is going to be shaping up to be a very close race, and you know, you and i have talked about "the new york times," sienna college poll that came out over the weekend. to me, the biggest story line is all the polls seem to be closed. some show president biden up 2 or 3 points. some might show donald trump up one or two or three points. one year out, everyone should be in mind, it's going to be a close race. >> we have seen over and over again now and in the past year plus since roe v. wade was overturned that abortion is a potent electoral issue. we have seen deep red states vote to protect abortion. we have seen red districts turn blue to protect abortion. abortion has been very top of mind for voters. i wonder, is it wrong to assume that it won't be top of mind in a year from now? all of the indicators show that it's so far been a big deal. does that mean it filters up to joe biden? >> i think it's going to be a powerful force in 2024. of course we have to see what ends up happening over the course of the next year. katy, i think you're exactly right. one of the biggest shakeups in american politics was the overturning of roe v. wade. and that ended up turning a state like we saw ohio last night, which it had been reliably red in 2016, in 2020, in 2022, and then basically what we ended up getting was a 60% to 40% result in favor of abortion rights. plus or minus a couple of percentage points. so that ohio is 60/40 on an issue like abortion. and we saw similar results in a place like kansas should tell you all you need to know about how abortion is playing at least right now. >> mark murray, enjoy miami, it looks lovely down there. thanks for being with us: joining us now, doug hie and the host of simone on nbc, symone sanders townsend. guys, thanks for being here. i saw john kasich on the air an hour ago with chris jansing, saying that abortion won big in ohio last night, and so did marijuana, by the way, it doesn't mean that nationally or that on the state level for national office it's going to be a winner for democrats. not going to win ohio because voters decided that they wanted to enshrine abortion into their constitution? >> i mean, i think a democrat hasn't won ohio in a presidential in a while. it used to be a reliably purple place. it's been looking a little more red as cycles continue. that doesn't mean that he can't do well there, right? it's all about closing the margins from campaign perspective in a place that is -- you look at what happened in kentucky. the way governor beshear held on as he ran up his numbers in the urban areas. they voted for him last time, some due to daniel cameron being the chief architect of not getting breonna taylor just, but some of the rural areas, the reliably red places, he closed up the margins. that is what joe biden is going to have to do in some of the counties in michigan. >> can he do that? can joe biden do the same in purple states, states he needs to win? you look at the polling, people aren't excited for him they just are not excited for him. are the democrats relying on enough voters coming out and saying, i just can't do donald trump, i'll vote for anybody but him. >> i think joe biden has done it before. he's the president because he did it in 2020 against donald trump. and the way it's looking right now, might be against donald trump again. this is why the campaign is going to have to make sure they invest early, and they are aggressive, not just with ads but on the ground advertising. ohio didn't enshrine abortion rights because people felt good. they were communicated to and aggressively organized to understand what the issue was on the ballot. >> doug, does the issue of abortion for republicans change? does the messaging change? we heard again today that the governor of virginia, glenn youngkin, came out and repeated a 15-week ban is reasonable, even though the republicans lost both state houses in virginia. in fact, i have that sound byte, let's play it. >> abortion is potentially one of the most difficult topics in virginia and around the nation, and my hope is, continues to be, that we can find a way to come together as virginians and lead. i do believe that there is a place we can come together. common ground. this is difficult. i think virginians don't want to be extreme either direction. i think they actually want to find a place to come together, and that's what i think we tried to represent, reasonableness, and i think in the long-term, reasonableness is where people come together. >> he's continuing to say reasonable on this? he stopped himself, he almost said was, and then he said i continue to be. is that the right move for republicans? >> i think it shows how hard it is of an issue for republicans to communicate on, and also legislate on. you know, we used to hear the old phrase that was coined by tip o'neill, all politics are local. it's now that all politics are national. whatever glenn youngkin tries to do in virginia, gets defined by what happens in south carolina. voters will often hear six weeks coming from south carolina. whenever we hear ron desantis attack gavin newsom in california or vice versa, it demonstrates that what happens in florida doesn't stay in florida. what happens in california doesn't stay in california, and that becomes very tricky for republicans as state legislatures are legislating out loud and ultimately hurting republican chances at the ballot box. >> let me ask you what happened in kentucky in terms of daniel cameron, do you think it was organization or was it that beshear was a popular governor in that state or donald trump's endorsement of cameron didn't help him? >> the first-person ad looking to the camera was powerful and helpful to beshear. everything that symone talked about is what popular governors should do. it shouldn't be terribly surprising that governor beshear won reelection. he was popular. three, let's get rid of the idea that everything that happens in american politics has to do with donald trump. of course donald trump was going to support, whether it was full boar or just an endorsement, a republican candidate, but so much of our american life right now is either put in the prism of donald trump or taylor swift and it doesn't always have to be that way. >> okay. doug, sure. >> we can watch a football game, and it doesn't have to involve the eras tour. >> i don't want to watch a football game then, though. that's just me. let me ask you about democrats. we'll put taylor swift aside. does the white house really feel comfortable with joe biden? do they really feel comfortable running him for reelection? i'm serious. >> if they don't feel comfortable, they probably shouldn't work there. he's the candidate. i think it is absolutely normal for voters, democrats, even people that don't have a d behind their name to say, hey, maybe we should look at someone different. >> they weren't doing that for obama. they weren't doing that for bill clinton. >> this is a wide swath of the democratic electorate. >> look at what happened last night. andy beshear, he ran on bidenomics, he talked about the battery production facilities that were brought to kentucky, thanks to money from the biden administration. he talked about the money going in -- >> is biden good at selling his own policies. >> i think they need to stop talking about bidenomics, and tell them what it is. he talked about the money going to amtrak and rail. he told the people what it was, and so this notion that there's something wrong with joe biden and they got to get rid of him, the people on what joe biden was saying, and it worked well for them. >> symone sanders, doug hie, thank you very much. the beginning of a long conversation we're going to have for the next year. coming up next, she distanced herself from her family and her family business. what ivanka trump said today under oath. plus, nine days to go, what's happening in congress to avoid a government shut down, and who just got subpoenaed in the house? we're back in 60 seconds. with c. 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(carolers) ♪ we tried to tell him but he paid us a lot... ♪ (husband) it was a lot... ♪ mhmmm ♪ (vo) this holiday turn any iphone, in any condition, into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium, apple tv 4k, and six months of apple one. all three on us. it's holiday everyday with verizon. ivanka trump does not recall on the witness stand today she repeatedly told ag prosecutors that she didn't know or couldn't remember when asked questions about trump property valuations and accounting, distancing herself from her family and its business. joining us now from outside the courthouse is msnbc anchor, lindsey reiser, she's off the stand now, give us a summary of what she said and did not say. >> reporter: some interesting things have happened since lunch. direct examination wrapped up. she's under cross-examination. an e-mail between ivanka and her husband jared kushner was entered into evidence, with the objection of chris kise saying this is spousal privilege. and the judge overruling because they sent it from work accounts. they would often talk about work, and asking him about other sources of financing when it came to the old post office deal. that is the old post office in washington, d.c., renovated to a luxury hotel. they worked with deutsche bank to get the terms for the loan, terms that the a.g.'s office said were too favorable, considering there had to be a guarantee of a certain net worth, as proven by their statements of financial condition. these are the themes of the case, the documents that the a.g. said contained over valuations. the lawyer arguing for the case, trying to establish some of these communications with ivanka, even though she would say, i do not recall, because this was in some cases, ten or more years ago, but still, they're getting the documents into the case. now, also the attorney general's office establishing she got $4 million for the sale as part of the deal, and already in cross, we're hearing some of the same themes that we heard involving the statements of financial condition. was she involved in preparing them. she doesn't recall having a major role. the judge asking questions about the way the questions were asked off the top, and chris kise objecting, saying we have been at this for a minute, and you're saying something as they went on and on. he wants to create a record of what he and his team say are consistent rulings against trump and codefendants of which ivanka is not. she was dropped from the case. they're trying to say deutsche bank was happy to work with them. the attorney general filing a motion to get four defense witnesses dismissed, essentially saying at this point their testimony would not be relevant. >> really interesting. thank you, and again they are back from lunch break. my bad, she is on cross-examination right now, ivanka trump. can we start with what she ended with, that they're trying to get four defense witnesses? i have to introduce charles first, former prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, charles coleman. everybody knows you. my bad, my friend, i'm sorry. let me ask you about what lindsey said. the prosecutors trying to get four defense witnesses removed. what is going on there? >> well, what those witnesses are intended to do is to rebut essential testimony from the prosecution, so basically they have these experts, and they have proffered the experts as being able to explain or refute what the prosecutors are putting on the in the case. the argument that letitia james is making, you're refuting witnesses we didn't put on. you give the judge a list of witnesses and who you expect to call. you don't have to abide by that. these were put on the defense's list in preparation to respond to what prosecutors said. in the absence of them making that case, the defense being able to put these witnesses on allows them unfettered access to basically create a narrative that is not being refuted by the prosecution. that's why they're fighting it. >> will they get removed? what's your outlook on that? >> unless donald trump's attorneys can put forward a reason that they should be put on the witness stand, that does not involve responding to an argument that has not been made. they will likely be prevented from testifying. >> let me talk about ivanka trump, was she a helpful witness for prosecutors? >> absolutely. even though she is no longer a defendant, what prosecutors are continuing to do is piece together a very large scale picture as to what was going on with the trump organization, and how intentional it was. be very clear, everything they're talking about with deutsche bank came from the private wealth side of what deutsche bank does, not necessarily the business management side, and that's a very important distinction. he was rejected once and went to the project side to secure these loans, specifically the loan that lindsey reiser was just discussing, and that's where the fraud came into play, most notably. >> explain a little bit more about why that matters. why was he rejected from one side, and why would the private wealth side accept him? >> the standards on the private wealth side are less stringent. they looked at his business valuations and he said this is not going to work. this doesn't make sense, and on the private wealth side, there's relaxed standards. >> how does that work? that's the same company. >> that's a banking conversation, but one that is very real and continues to be examined in different ways, but be very clear, even on the private wealth side, those decisions would not have been made in the ways that they were, but for donald trump's missed evaluations on his filing, so he was very much so aware, hey, listen, i still have to exaggerate my overall net worth, it's not going to be checked in the same way. >> what does donald trump's team have to present in order to not get a fine leveed against them and to continue to operate in the state of new york. >> liability, we know is settled. in terms of what the penalty is or the extremity of the penalty, they have to make the compelling case that this was not as intentional or as methodical or as constructed as it appears to be. it was just sloppy. >> very sloppy, and you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars as a business in new york state, and so that in and of itself isn't going to get them free and clear from any sort of penalty, but the more that they can put it on happenstance and sort of -- place the blame on the accountant. >> place the blame on experts that did not do what they were supposed to do as opposed to to their ultimate neglect of their fiduciary duties, that's where they begin to try to escape the harshest of harshest penalties. >> charles coleman, thank you very much. we should have a banker on to explain why the two branches have different rules. appreciate it. why some members of president biden's family just got from the house oversight committee, and it was not a gift. first, though, breaking news in the death of president of a detroit synagogue, what we know after the break. t nasygogue, wh after the break. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand for a better night sleep. so now, he wakes up feeling like himself. the reigning family room middle-weight champion. better days start with zzzquil nights. is this for me? 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