why he's arguing for it as well. i think we really need to have a conversation about what does it mean to be a republican now and how has that changed and and how about and what are people implicitly accepting when they just say if i want a strong president? it is all in for tonight. alex wagner starts goodnight. good evening. alex alex it is tells me that these e legitimate conversations were having with a man who wants to be president. thanks to you at home for joining me this evening. the former president of the united states is a free man. he can go anywhere he chooses and today he chose to attend his civil fraud trial in new york city. >> this is weaponization of justice. this is something nobody can see to this extent, it's called election interference. it's a sad day for our country that a thing like this could take place. i'm sitting in a courthouse instead of being in iowa where i should be. >> again, no one compelled mr. trump to be in that courthouse today. he could've gone to iowa. he has a private plane, he could've gone to both iowa and new york to be wanted to. but donald trump came to new york because he's likes to use his trials as soapbox as for his presidential campaign. and the biggest one of all, the biggest soapbox of all is the federal trial over alleged 2020 election subversion which, is set to take place in march of next year wright's campaign season is in full swing. that would set up a dynamic a split screen if you will but no one in this country has ever seen before. the times say the trump d.c. trial would also fuse his role as a criminal defendant as a presidential candidate. it would transform the steps for daily impromptu daily rallies. and the legal case for the race to the white house on a direct pledging chorus, each one increasingly capable of shaping the other. ? it that sort of what we saw today the beta test that dynamic. but there is a very live question right now as to whether that case even goes to trial before the 2024 election. because while donald trump may enjoy the spectacle of a campaign royal of a campaign steps, he is very much still doing very much to do everything in his power to become a convicted criminal. and today trump's lawyers made a significant delay to delay his d.c. trial and a move that may very well end up succeeding. as we have been covering on this show in recent days, trump has been trying to get this case thrown out on the grounds that he is immune from prosecution for anything he did as president. and trump's mind, the presidency is a shield against nearly everything. but the judge here, judge tanya chutkan rejected that argument last weekend in a forceful ruling. she wrote the fans for your service as commander-in-chief did not pistol him the divine right of kings to evade criminal culpability as in his fellow citizens. but today trump is appealing that ruling, saying he wants a higher court to run in way and in that same question. and importantly, he is asking judge chutkan to freeze all further proceedings in this case until that issue is resolved. now last night we told you about these jury selection forms that i've already gone out to potential jurors in washington, d.c.. but if trump succeeds in pausing this case, there will be no jury selection in the near future. no jury selection, no pre trial motions, no disclosures about trial strategies. all of that machinery, all of that very necessary and time consuming preparation would come to a grinding halt. which would inevitably have the effect of delaying the trial itself. but trump may also have another goal in mind. trump could try to appeal his presidential immunity defense all the way to the supreme court where he presumably hopes that the conservative majority, a third of who were appointed by donald trump himself would not rule in his favor. what the supreme court would actually do is anyone's guess. if they rule in trump's favor, then the cases over. cap put. but they rule against trump, then judge chutkan would have a choice to make. getting a high court to issue a ruling would likely delay this case for weeks or even months, and then judge chutkan will have to decide whether to hold the proceeding during the heart of campaign season. such a move would no doubt prompt furious outbursts from mr. trump, who would be obligated to be in courtroom every day and not campaigning. so that tantrum slash pep rally you saw today, the outburst we've all seen four weeks outside mr. trump's fraud trial in new york, those would become a daily occurrence in the middle of an election. or judge chutkan could forgo that completely she, could defer to the political calendar and decide was too fraught to put a calendar on trial. excuse me with the election looming. joining me now, and former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, i'm gonna take a brief pause and drink some water. also with us mark joseph stern, writer in covering the courts. marking a can't go to you right now, so i can continue to cough. i can ask you what your assessment is about how long the d.c. court may take to adjudicate this issue? >> you know it really all depends on what panel of judges takes this case. and it's randomly assigned. there are four republican judges on the d.c. circuit who have shown some inclination towards running interference for trump to varying degrees. and if two of those judges land on this panel, that panel could really draw out the process. they could take quite a long time to hear the case, issue a decision, in past appeals to the d.c. circuit, these cases have usually just by chad's gone to liberal panels which have worked really well to expedite the process and get an answer out fast because they don't want to delay justice. but if this does land in the hand of conservative judges on that court, we could be waiting for months and months until we get a decision. and all that time judge chutkan's proceedings would almost certainly be stayed. >> it feels like they're very few good options here. what is the best-case scenario as you see this appeals process take flight as it were? >> i think the best-case scenario as mark alluded to is the court of appeals rules quickly. this may sound a little bit naive, but i am going to say it. this is a motion that any lawyer would file. i have said many times, we have talked many times about trump using appeals as a delay tactic. this is a real issue that it makes sense that they are appealing it. it's not frivolous. i don't think ultimately on the merits he will win and i think it's important that the court of appeals he is appealing to has already ruled on this in the civil context and says he does not have immunity. now sit civil and criminal are very different. i think there's a decent argument, one way of thinking of that is that in the criminal context, a court would be less likely to give immunity than in a civil one. because in a civil case, anybody could file a civil case, they don't want to open the floodgates. criminal case is as have we can see we have seen in history, as a sitting president or former sitting president are very rare. i think there is a very good chance that the court of appeals can rule quickly and get this moving. what happens at the supreme court is a bigger unknown, but again they have deferred on other cases related to trump and summarily of front to the court of appeals not wanting to weigh in on this. this is more important legal questions we will have to see. >> you know mark, when we talk about the supreme court, it is a big question mark which i think surprises some people saying the positions that other people have seen taken on this. what is your expectation of who might be, who are the allies the trump might have on the high court. is it justice thomas? is it justice kavanaugh? is it more than two of them? who you think would be more sympathetic to his argument here? >> so look, we have seen time and again that justice thomas almost always votes with donald trump when he takes some case to the supreme court, seeking to support a subpoena or an indictment or any kind of lawsuit, justice thomas is there walking arm and arm with him. and to a lesser degree souls justice alito. both of them have expressed views that they really do think this former president is under this kind of unfair assault the treats him almost illegitimately, and that they feel some kind of independent obligation to stand up to that. just as kavanaugh and gorsuch are more interesting. they have indicated some concern for protecting the president from invasive lawsuits. the criminal question remains very much open, and as me alluded to, it's a very different case. it's not one that the supreme court ever dealt with squarely when trump was president what really did try to dodge these issues. and one thing i think is important to understand about this appeal, that it goes to judge chutkan's distrust diction to hear this case. goes to the question of either she has the power to carry on here or whether trump is completely immune, so this entire case has to be thrown out. i think the gravity of that question, it's so different than can this evidence be introduced, can this witness testified? this is the whole deal here, and i think the gravity of that will give some of the justices pause and make them want to take on this case and really hear full arguments, full briefing and to make a decision on the merits. that could take until june, at which point it right might really be too late for a trial. even if justice kavanaugh and justice gorsuch ultimately come out against trump and his question, they might think it's serious enough to that they will take it under consideration, and that alone might be enough to run it out the clock. >> the fact that they are taking it out is an inherently pro trump move. the supreme court me, we all remember bush v. gore it took them a day to issue an opinion on that. is there any chance, march is said june if the supreme court decides to take this up and i assume that's the expediting calendar. >> that's normally when they come down with their decisions. look, this is a different scenario. this is an interlocutory appeal. there is an indictment pending, there's trial calendar set, there are jurors. even a partisan supreme court, even a partisan justice, if they have any shred of institutional respect for the court system has to recognize that this isn't something they can wait six months on, i don't think. it should be an expedited appeal, because it's not like bush v. gore where it's about the election, it's about a pending criminal indictment where jurors have already been called. >> it is about the 2024 election as well in some ways. some people say the american public should have some conclusions as well. >> there is that argument. i think there's a decent argument that we will have to see the briefing and how she can even proceed with the case. >> i want to talk about that because there are parallel hurdles here. there is the ultimate question about whether he has immunity but mark, there's the question about whether trump can grind everything to a halt. i think it was very interesting the judge chutkan moved forward with the jury selection process. the letters went out i think last week or at the beginning of this week, almost as a signal to say the work is starting, we need to get this underway. the machinery of justice is cranking along. what do you think the likelihood is of a stay is granted here after all the preparations of this march 4th trial grind to a halt? >> i think it's unlikely that judge chutkan would grant such a sweeping stay. a more limited stays within ihram of possibility, but trump's lawyers are arguing here that there is a mandatory freeze on all proceedings as soon as they even file the appeal. trump's lawyers say, hey we're going to the d.c. circuit now. judge chutkan now by law you must stop everything you are doing. they make that argument based on a 5 to 4 decision last term written by justice kavanaugh it doesn't even say any of that. it was a mirror decision regarding arbitration not a criminal trial. so it's pretty much a hail mary argument that they're making here and judge chutkan is not shown a lot of tolerance for that. i don't think she will be playing along here, but of course have we as discussed for several minutes now, once this gets in the hands of the d.c. circuit, once it gets to the hands of the supreme court, higher courts always stay these proceedings once a considering the question. so it depends on way more on who is handling this in the courts above, and what judge chutkan decides what to do. >> that's the point. it seems comical that judge shotgun would be deciding on this day given where she is in the immunity appeal. he could appeal, that it could go to the d.c. circuit, and then to the supreme court. the d.c. circuit as been remarkably generous if you will in issuing these stays even on the gag order. it would turn to the status quo, that donald trump wasn't gagged, and continuing to make inflammatory dangerous comments about court officials when he was on gag. this is less immediately perilous to any person, so could they actually say yes, we can stop everything while we decide on the appeal? >> i will be very interested to see the government's response to the motion, because yeah, when you have an appeal there is a certain jurisdictional elements, the jury's happening, now you can't go forward. i agree with mark, could be a more limited stay. it doesn't mean that the jury selection process is gonna take forever, so that's why she started it. maybe that can continue, because that doesn't involve the parties. there are certain ways, this is just so unprecedented that it's hard to know. but i would also say the deceased circuit has been pretty remarkably fast. that's not unusual for them and they have continued that in this. i think that is hopeful. >> well, i am not one to quote donald rumsfeld, but no known unknowns. thank you both for your expertise and your wisdom in unpacking this. we have lots more ahead tonight. you have heard the alarm bells ringing about donald trump's revenge plans should he win reelection, now we have a look at all the tools at his disposal if he gets back into the white house. but first, tinfoil at january six revisionism is in full swing in the federal courthouse for the republican presidential primary. we'll have more on that coming up next. we'll have more on that comig up next. up next. >> arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? make it arexvy. right now across the u.s., people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. yes, libraries. we all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. that's why every book belongs on the shelf. yet book banning in the u.s. is worse than i've ever seen. it's people in power who want to control everything. well, i say no to censorship. and i say yes to freedom of speech and expression. if you do too, please join us in supporting the american civil liberties union today. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for your rights and mine. including the right to read all manner of books. so please call or go online to myaclu.org. for just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. you can become a guardian of liberty and help protect all the rights promised to us by the u.s. constitution. make no mistake, this move to ban books is a coordinated attack on students right to learn. this is a clear violation of free speech. that's why the aclu is working to fight against censorship in all its forms. it is so important now more than ever. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty, for just $19 a month. use your credit card and you'll get this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're helping to protect the rights of all people. the aclu is in all 50 states, d.c. and puerto rico defending our first amendment right of free speech and all of your constitutional rights. because we the people, means all of us. so please, call or, go online to myaclu.org today. - [speaker] at first, just leaving the house was hard. - [speaker] but wounded warrior project helps you realize it's possible to get out there - [speaker] to feel sense of camaraderie again. - [speaker] to find the tools to live life better. - [narrator] through generous community support, we've connected warriors and their families with no cost physical and mental health services, legislative advocacy, career assistance, and life skill training for 20 years, and we are just getting started. the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. today a lot hostetter of the home of the xfinity 10g network. former california police chief turned january 6th rioter was sentenced to 11 years in federal prison for his role in the attack on the capital. and his sentencing, hostetter launched into a rant after federal prosecutors referred to me as opposed to john for january 6th conspiracy theories. in response, mr. hostetter told prosecutors he was living in a parallel universe and he believed the capitol insurrection was a set up by the cia, the fbi and the department of homeland security. his source for that? who was this guy. >> why am i the only person on the stage at least thick who can say the january six now does look like it was an inside job. that the 2020 election was indeed stolen by big tech. then the 2016 election, the one that trump won for sure, was also the one that was stolen from him by the national security establishment. >> vivek ramaswamy is unbelievably but also not surprisingly not the only republican to embrace the january 6th tinfoil had three. in a recent court filing, lawyers for donald trump says he plans to make january 6th conspiracy theories part of his defense in the federal 2020 election interference case. as proof, trump does the justice department for all documents from all individuals like ray acts, a trump supporter who's been a target of right-wing attacks falsely claiming that acts was an undercover agent and that january 6th was a false flag event. joining us now is mark leibovich, staff writer at the atlantic. mark, thank you for being here. as we watch the most outlandish theories take a strong foothold in the republican party, i think there is been a lot of discussion this week on how to stop the madness. and in particular if the toothpaste can be put back into the tube with some of the more extreme positions of the gop here. and i wonder when you have someone like the vague ramaswamy saying stuff like that on the national stage, when he's one of the four candidates learning for the republican nomination, you seen realtime what effect that gonna have. candid to peace be put back in the tube? >> vivek ramaswamy at the slatedale just a few days before the iowa caucus is still up on that stage. seems a lot of people including republicans are tuning in a, which i think is probably a good thing, but obviously as we saw funnels legal proceedings in california, you know people listen to the stuff, people believe it. and the fact is, for the last seven years this has been coming for the most powerful, most visible figure in the republican party, donald trump. he is the conspiracy theorist