Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20120628 : vimarsan

CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 June 28, 2012



southwest, then those guns, thousands of them, were allowed to walk or be smuggled into mexico with an eye towards tracing their way through the cartels. instead as we, the house oversight committee and ore news organizations were led to believe, the atf lost track of those weapons. some made it back into the country. two were found at the scene where border agent brian terry was gunned down. that was the story as we and nearly everyone thought we knew. now tonight, though, after six months of reporting, "fortune" magazine reveals a very different fast and furious. the bottom line -- letting guns walk was not, i repeat not, part of the plan. she writes five law enforcement agents directory involved in fast and furious tell fortune that the atf had no such tactic. she goes on to say, they insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. just the opposite. they say they seized weapons whenever they could, but were ham strung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn. the house oversight committee is slamming the story. we're going to get to that in just a moment. however, committee chairman darrell issa declined to come on this program to elaborate. one committee member will join us in just a little bit. >> it's nice to see you. the premise of your article was there was no gun walking in fast and furious. which contradicts the central argument we've seen in the political sphere now for months. >> that's right. after sucks months of investigation, what became clear to me was the things that congress wasled holing up as centerpieces of proof that guns had been walked were, in fact, misconstru misconstrued, incorrect, resulted from other motives, other reasons, that there were alternate explanations and really, this was a case of cherry pick iing small phrases, sentences, without any of the context that you really need in order to understand what happened in phoenix group seven. >> so why back in november of 2011 would the attorney general eric holder say that, in fact, the tactic happen and it was unacceptable. let me play this a little bit. >> instances of so-called gun walking is simply unacceptable. regrettably this tactic was used as past of fast and furious, which was launched to combat gun trafficking and violence on our southwest border. >> it's that very testimony that many people, of course, have connected to and said is he's admitting gun walking. in fact, what he's saying there under oath completely contradicts what's in your article. >> right. well, this is where we get to a very murky place. because the letter that the justice department ended up retracting was a letter which said atf always attempts to intraaddict weapons. well, that wasn't the case in the john dodson investigation. >> so the "always" was the issue there. >> so they retracted the letter. in my article, i do say it appears the obama administration has basically saved or laid down on the railroad tracks in order to hold it at bay. >> republican lawmakers have been attacking the atf for not seizing enough weapons, which when you look at, as you describe the sort of weak possibility for prosecution has tremendous irony. >> well, this really gets even stranger because i had law enforcement agents speak to me because they said issa's inquiye is actually harming the second amendment. he's out there bashing atf agents for not seizing enough guns. these were guns deemed to be legally transferred by prosecutors. so what's the alternative? should they be going out and illegally seizing guns? this was a clash and a conflict that occurred repeatedly between the agents and the prosecutors. >> you end your article with a look at who really was part of fast and furious. the cartel and mexican nationals using their money to purchase those guns that were ultimately traced back to the fbi? >> that's right. >> they were being funded by the fbi. they were being paid by the fbi. >> that's right. this is the theory that nothing went as planned and expected. but the top two targets turned out to be on the fbi payroll. >> why has no one from the department of justice said in fast and furious there was no gun running. gun walking, excuse me. why has no one from the department of justice said in fast and furious, there was no gun walking? period. send of story. that's what your article says .but they have not said that. why not? >> i don't know exactly why. one sense is that, you know, when this scandal first broke and congress made the allegations, the justice department went to their political folks and asked what happened. they never went to dave, the citizens group and say sit down and tell us what happen. to this day he has not been questioned. so there's a sense that the justice department immediately wanted to deal with the political repercussions withouts inially graping with the substantive question of what actually happened. now, i think they would say this they have turned to the inspector general to do a thorough investigation and they are withholding judgment pending that eare view. but, in fact, i think anyone watching eric holder testifying would conclude that he believes that guns were walked. >> the focus now as we look at the contempt hearings, the question is, why not turn over the documents? that's become kind of the central question. if your research, can you answer that question? >> i can't answer that question, because i don't know exactly what's in those documents. but what's interesting is those documents are not about the substance of what occurred in phoenix. those documents are about the internal slib dplib rations within the justice department about how to respond to the congressional inquiry. so it's hard to say if those are politically damaging or what, in fact, is in them. it's just yet another segment of this inquiry that doesn't have to do with what actually happened. >> we have a statement from the oversight committee that weighed in on what they think of your article. i don't know if you've had a chance to see this yet. >> i think i have. >> here's what they say. "fortune's" story is a fantasy, made up from the accounts of those involved in fast and furious. it contains factual errors including the false statement that chairman issa has called for attorney general holder's resignation and multiple distortions. it hides critical information from readers including a report in "the wall street journal" indicating that its primary sources may be facing criminal charges. congressional staff gave "fortune" magazine numerous examples of false statements made by the story's primary source and the magds did not dispute this information. it did not, however, explain this material to its readers. they say it's a fantasy, it's made up of accounts of people who were involved in the recklessness that is fast and 2350ur furious. >> that's their claim. they've been repeating it for a year. many things brought to my attention are things that already been reported by others. what i've been trying to do is put aside everything that has been written so far about this claimed on television and say what did actually happen using sources that i had to weigh carefully, all the doms i was able to obtain and just to take a sober look at what occurred. some of the things they brought to my attention are ultimately not in the article because we felt they were not germane or they were not true or they were not necessarily relevant. >> and we should know that which i remember issa told fox news that the attorney general needs to either, quote, lead or resign. that would seem to be in error as well. thank you for joining us. a fascinating article. it's called the truth about the fast and furious scandal. appreciate it. >> a quick reminder. you can real katherine's entire report on cnn.com. joining me is john micah on the house committee on oversight. i know you've had a chance to read the article -- >> i haven't had a chance to read the article. i try not to read too many fiction or novel. >> she says that there are five people at the atf who were involved in this -- what was happening in phoenix who say there was no policy of gun walking. it did not happen. first of all, you just showed a clip of the attorney general saying gun walking happened. quite frankly, i'm a member of the investigative committee, one of the senior members of the panel. i don't take our investigative facts and information from a magazine or some article. all we're interested in and all we're responsible for doing is finding out who did what, getting the pertinent documents. this is an investigative arm of the house of representatives. there's no reason why we should be denied the documents to get to the truth of this. you know, this isn't some -- we're going to make up fantasy stories or take parts of information from some writer. this is a serious investigation. people were killed -- >> let's go back to what the writer is saying. this is not her opinion. she's saying there are five people -- >> i don't care if there are five or 10 or 20. >> the atf said it didn't happen. you don't care about what they're saying? >> ewith want all their information. if their testimony is pertinent, we'll bring them in. what we're asking for is the documents that are in possession of the government. and in this case, of the department of justice or any of its personnel that relate to this. we know there are more than 100,000 documents. we received about 7,000 or 8,000. that's about 7% or 8%. okay? >> this is almost a joke to say we should rely on some article in some magazine. >> i don't think she considers it a joke at all, sir. >> i do because i think this is making a farce out of the investigative process. under the soviet union, under the laws of the united states. >> she is reporting -- >> i don't care what she's reporting. she has nothing to do with our committee or our responsibili responsibilities on the committee. >> sir, may i ask a question? >> if it's not turned over by tomorrow, we will hold in contempt the house of representatives, eric holder, the attorney general of the united states. >> so she's saying she has spoken to people at the atf who said gun walking did not happen. >> you just told me a tape where the attorney general testified -- >> let me finish, if i may. her article said there is no gun walking. what evidence do you have that there was gun walking. what's your evidence? >> maybe i was watching a different program. i just saw eric holder say there was gun walking. >> what evidence do you have from the atf saying there was gun walking. >> well, just the attorney general. i guess we can't believe him. we don't know what to believe. that's the whole point here. we should be titled, an investigative arm of the house of representatives, this agency used taxpayers monies. it's authorized by the congress of the united states and you're telling me i have to rely on some novelist or some writer -- >> i'm telling you what the writer is raising here as some very interesting things. let me read to you -- >> all i want are the facts. >> i just want to give you something from her article. she said she mentions a guy who is on food stamps yet plunked down $300,000 for 476 firearms over six months. the supervisor asked the atf this they could arrest him and he was told they could not. he could not be arrested because under the law in the state of arizona you can buy massive numbers of guns, right? that is correct. so her argument is that there was no gun walking, that in fact, it was prosecutors -- let me finish my sentence. it was prosecutors, it was weak laws that, in fact, were the reason that those guns were able to get across the border. >> well, first of all, on february 4, 2011, the department of justice sent us a letter saying they didn't know anything about what was going on. there was nothing. we actually know from an e-mail in march that they knew and they chose those to cover it up for another 10 months. then they finally admitted something was going on. and just a few minutes ago, you played a tape, unless you doctored the tape, that was the attorney general of the united states saying eh thought there was gun walking going on. you're trying to tell me a committee of congress charged with specific jurisdiction for investigation over all of these agencies including the department of justice should just turn a blind eye when an agent is killed and others are murdered and we're using taxpayer dollars. >> let's talk that date you justice mentioned. february 4, 2011. that's a date you mentioned. justice department sends a letter to senator grassley. grassley seems to come back with proof that the atf had, in fact, walked guns. but he's talking actually about a different case. according to this reporter's case, agent john dodson, who is the whistle blowner this did walk guns. is it true or not the whistleblower in this case did walk guns in a totally different case? is that true or not? >> again, this isn't rocket science. this is not complicated. this is the prosecutorial arm. this is the department of justice buying weapons, we believe, because we don't know because we don't have the kt fas and they won't give us the information. >> if it's not fast and furious -- you're investigating it. this reporter has been doing it for six months. >> they try to keep the evidence from you. >> this reporter has been investigating it for six months and you -- >> i don't give a hill of beans about that reporter. >> you have been investigating it as well. >> we have an investigative staff charged by law and this committee under the constitution of the united states has a responsibility, taxpayers money and an agency which we fund from the government. they bought weapons, we believe. >> and she said done by the guy who's the whistleblower to you. that's what she says. >> she can say whatever she wants. she doesn't work for the committee. she wasn't elected to congress and she isn't charged with investigating this under the laws and constitution of the united states. she's probably a very nice lady, but that's not her responsibility. four responsibility is to represent the citizens paying for this whole fiasco and seeing an agent killed. you know, after -- we have to respond to the terry family who came to our committee. all i asked for was justice and a thorough investigation in the death of their loved one. >> it seemed if you wanted to keep the guns going to mexican cartels, why not advocate for stronger laws. why not make it easier for someone buying 476 weapons who appears to be on food stamps at the same time. wouldn't that actually be a good step? >> it could raise -- that could raise a good question. but the question at hand here is someone in the department of justice at whatever level -- >> that's not my question. >> to supply guns and at least one of those weapons was used in the death of a federal agent and hundreds of other -- >> and if you wanted to stop that from happening again, why not make the laws stronger. why not make the laws so that one person cannot buy 476 guns over six months, who, by the way, seems to be on food stamps and has no money. we should first make sure the department of jut isn't buying those weapons and supplying them to guns smugglers and murderers. when an agency of the united states government, we need to make sure this never happens again and the people responsible for one of the most horrendous kt as we've never seen out of the department of justice, those people are held accountable. one way or the other. >> why not an electric database that would be able to track gun sales real time. the atf agents wouldn't have to go by hand and try to backtrack weapons. the nra does not support that. the nra has been working against that. so why not support a gun sales database? >> well, again, a gun sale database is just trying to get the department of justice to keep tracks of the guns they're purchasing and supplying to drug deals and murders. wow. come on, let's get the government under control before we start restricting the rights of innocent citizens. >> so a database that would track -- >> so many peripherals you're -- >> i'm just -- >> the database to keep track of the mess you've created, the murders from are taxpayer dollars. now we see some of the weapons are in the united states, too. this is a scheme that was cooked up by some people who don't want -- the facts to come out. >> you don't seem that interested in reading the article or talking about the five atf agents who say it didn't happen. you don't seem -- sir, you don't seem that interested in tracking down five atf agents who said gun walking didn't happen. >> i think we should track down everyone and hold everyone accountable. but that's part of our investigation. right now, you have impeding that investigation, both the department of the justice, now the president of the united states is with the kpeg tif privilege he's invoked and also with the attorney general who came before us and his agency provided us with initial information that was not truthful. we want to hold people accountable. >> i think a lot of people would agree with you. they want the truth, the facts and hold people responsible as well. >> i don't ask for one thing more and i think the people of the united states that we represent deserve that. >> i'm going to agree with you on that, sir. >> congressman micah, thank you. >> i'm a persistent person. >> as am i, sir. no question about that. we're on facebook. you can follow us on twitter as well@ac360. follow me as well, soleda soledad@soledado'bri soledad@soledado'brien. we're going to try to counter all of that with the facts. we're keeping them honest coming up next. ♪ the radical new macbook pro with retina display. ♪ innovation...in every dimension. ♪ er is different but centurylink is committed to being a different kind of communications company by continuing to help you do more and focus on the things that matter to you. but they can also hold you back. unless you ask, "what's next?" introducing the all-new rx f sport. this is the pursuit of perfection. we are also keeping them honest tonight with the truth about health care reform and the consequences of the supreme court decision on it. you can already see people staking out their spots. many have already positions on the lawn. some have stirred up a storm of hype like you've never seen before tonight. we're going to try to cut through the noise and get to the facts. you're not getting them from supporters of the law or opponents. instead, when it comes to the health care debate in america, you're getting this. ♪ >> that's a liberal group's response to republican paul ryan's plan for medicare to change it into a private system. >> the doctors tried the pills and the pills just don't work. no, i need a pacemaker. >> make no mistake about it. president obama and the democrats who wrote obamacare threw elderly citizens off the cliff when they increased medicare by $575 billion. >> seniors off the cliff. rm to, we're going to know whether the supreme court will uphold or strike down parts or all of the law. so tonight, all of the angles, starting with tom foreman. he's been looking about the competing flames about obamacare that just aren't so. >> democrats and republicans have vigorously debated a key question from the very start. how many money will health care reform save or cost taxpayers. their comments generally have gone this way. >> children with pre-existing conditions can get care, young people can stay on their policy until they're 26. preg nant women, breast and prostate cancer patients can no longer get thrown off their insurance. our seniors are paying less for their medical prescriptions. it will save taxpayers $1.3 trillion. >> we are going to repeal it and do everything we can over the course of how long it takes to stop this because it will

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