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CNNW Reliable Sources November 6, 2011



politico's jonathan martin, who broke the story, joins our discussion. brian williams takes the primetime plunge with a new magazine show. >> as we begin a new broadcast in this studio that has already housed a hot of television history over the years. and tonight we hoped to a another chapter. >> can rock center build a brand to rival "60 minutes"? plus kirby kardashian's lightning round marriage. why won't the media just admit they were had? i'm howard kurtz, and this is "reliable sources." for the reporters at politico, last sunday morning was a chance to ask herman cain about allegations unearthed on the web site that two women accused him of sexual harassment when he ran the national restaurant association in the 1990s. after the presidential candidate emerged from an appearance on "face the nation," that's what jonathan martin did. >> have you ever been accused of sexual harassment? have you? have you, sir? >> that was the last question. thank. >> yes or no? >> last question. >> have you ever been accused of sexual harassment? >> the story was published hours later, and you've got to say this for cain, he didn't go into hiding. he did one interview and appearance after another. but the story got increasingly murky as "politico," "the new york times" and others dug up new details and the candidate's denials began to shift. >> as far as a settlement, i am unaware of any sort of settlement. i hope it wasn't for much because i didn't do anything. the word "settlement" versus the word "agreement," you know -- i'm not sure what they called it. >> was there any behavior on your part that you think might have been inappropriate? >> in my opinion, no. but as you would imagine, it's in the eye of the person who thinks that maybe i crossed the line. >> you didn't say like, whoa, what did she say i did? >> no, i didn't, i said, what do you mean sdmarmt. >> when you make a distinction between settlement and agreement, it sounds clintonian. >> it wasn't meant to sound clintononian. >> were blindsided? >> not blind sided, bill. my campaign was aware that this story would break ten days ago. we made a conscious decision not to go chasing two anonymous sources. so don't even bother asking me all of these other questions that you all are curious about, okay, don't even bother. >> a good question, though. >> are you concerned that these women do -- are you concern good -- >> excuse me. excuse me. >> there are too many people in the media that are downright dishonest, not all, but too many of them do a disservice to the american people. [ applause ] >> that was herman cain last night at a debate with newt gingrich. joining us to examine the media's conduct on this controversial and polarizing story, here in washington, jonathan martin, senior political reporter for "politico" and the lead reporter on the cain story. kathleen parker, the nationally syndicated columnist with the "washington post." and in new york, kelly goff, contributing editor for loop21.com. jonathan martin, let's talk about the story last sunday, you and three colleagues report good this, and what it didn't contain in details. "sexually suggestive behavior that made the women ainge rea and uncomfortable. descriptions of physical gestures, not always overtly sexual, innuendo, and in one case an unwanted sexual advance in a hotel." why publish the story then when you couldn't answer the central question, what precisely is herman cain alleged to have done with these women? >> howie, i think any journalist would find the -- a report of two women who got a five figure -- each -- cash payout after alleging sexual harassment against the ceo of a trade group now a major contend for president newsworthy. that's the story we had, and that's what we published. as my editor, john harris, said, of course we want more detail and to do more reporting. that's what happened this eke. and obviously we printed what we could print last sunday. and of course we had multiple sources on this. a half a dozen actually, as we mentioned in the piece. now, as for the detail of it, we were dealing with sensitive, you know, sources. sensitive information here. >> yes. >> and so obviously we -- we tread delicately when it came to that. as you noted, though, in the build-up to the segment, during the course this week, "politico," my colleagues, "the new york times" and others, have gotten closer to this in terms of the detail of what happened. >> right. but you had to make -- let me interrupt. you had to make a go or no-go decision. i think in a lot of news organizations an editor would have said, you have done some terrific reporting, you have great leads here, but you don't have it. you can't have a quote of what he said to any of these women. you're obviously not able to name the women. you don't have the details of the sexually suggestive behavior that made him angry and a couple -- go back and get more. you could have waited. there was nothing forcing you to publish last sunday. >> well, we had the fact that -- one of these women was brought upon by cain in a hotel room. was made to feel very uncomfortable. we reported later in the week more about what happened with that episode. she was so upset about that, that hours later she confronted a member of the board to complain about cain's treatment of her, an explicit sexual overture in that hotel room. >> but you can't tell me what the overture is. >> with these stories, at first you may not have all the information you want. but subsequently reporting by my news organization and many others has corroborated the basic fact of the story. that's not in question at all. you know, mr. cain has offered, you know, various responses to the story. but nobody has challenged -- and in fact, the facts have been corroborated. two women -- >> the fact that these two women that you -- they were not willing to let their names be used. i assume you or your colleagues talk good it off the record. you can't say. didn't that cause you hesitation that you couldn't identify the women? >> howie, we had total confidence in this story. and after five days of reporting by other news outlets, you can see why. because the story was bulletproof, 100% on the facts. two women got five-figure payouts after accusing mr. cain of sexual harassment in the late '90s. those facts have been corroborated entirely. i don't understand the issue frankly. >> when you -- when you saw the tape earlier -- went up to cain outside the bureau last sunday, and he would not give a direct answer -- yes or no, you asked him, yes or no. did youic that in effect confirmation, no hard denial that that helped make the decision publish? >> in context. we had tried for ten days to get an answer from that campaign -- >> no response? >> no, actually, one of the first response was their spokesman was, mr. cain vaguely recalls what happened and told his campaign staff talk to the in-house counsel at the organization who took care of the matter and who -- to share with them what happened. so that wasn't really a denial either. but it wasn't enough for us. we wanted to ask the candidate directly about the accusations. that's what i did. i asked him four times that question. he didn't give me a straight answer. so that's the response we had. combined with his spokesman's response, it was far from a denial. and we found out why during the course this week because this actually did happen obviously. >> let me bring in kathleen parker. you also interviewed herman cain this week after the story broke, about the allegations. what did you make of his answers to you? >> well, i interviewed him right after he gave the talk to the national press club on monday. so that was one day after it was first reported that this thing had happened. i interviewed him previously so he felt comfortable with me, i know that. i said, look, you have to -- you have to shoot straight, lay it on the table, do the best you can to recall what happened because they're not going to stop. they meaning people like jonathan, are going to keep digging and digging and digging. and eventually somebody who knows something is going to speak. go ahead and dig deep in your memory bank and try to tell me what you recall might have been construed as sexual harassment. and i think he really -- you know, my first impression was herman cain is a little bit clueless in the -- in a male way, okay. i know i'm going to get myself in big trouble saying that. but in a sense he said, look, this is a complaint against me -- >> i hope he didn't say, "look, sweetheart." >> he didn't, but i wouldn't have been upset at may age, okay. at my age, i'd say, "thank you, darling." but he said, i think what happened at the time was he knew that there was this complaint against him. he delegated it to the proper authorities. they their investigation, resolved it. we talk about five figures like this is some enormous amount of money. i'm not defending -- cain here, i don't know what happened. >> but you described his answer to you as weak. >> i am getting pack to that. i promise. >> yeah. >> he said, okay, let me think. okay, there was this one time where i spoke it her, and i commented -- he called this other staff woman up to demonstrate the difference in their heights. and his wife is apparently a very petite lady. so he said, you're the same height as my wife. and he was standing close to her. that was his explanation of what might have been construed as sexual or not appropriate. and then i said, well, that's pretty good. and he even was able to give details. like the door was open to his office. his secretary was right outside the door. >> get you the bottom line -- >> your memory's getting good here. let's keep going. then he said there was this other time --arm what it was. it was not significant. >> your bottom line, as you wrote, was that it was not a terribly impressive set of denials? >> no, it wasn't. and it kept getting more expansive and more detailed. and i just thought, you know -- go ahead, jonathan martin and "politico" gave you ten days to figure out what your story is. at least figure that much out. >> okay. let me attorney kelly -- >> i do have a lot more to say. i have to get another chance to talk. >> given that herman cain is not alleged to have had sex with any of these women or have touched anyone as far as we know, unlike, say, bill clinton, does the past seven days amount to media overkill? >> that depends. and, you know, i'm going probably get myself in trouble for say something a little politically incorrect, might get a little hate mail. won't be the first time so i'll say it anyway. a lot of how the coverage plays out and the impact on the campaign plays out depends on one thing which we in the media don't like to acknowledge. that is what we end up finding out about his accusers and if -- how much we find out about them. what i mean by that is what we don't like to acknowledge but is simply a fact is that when it comes to allegations like this, an accuser's class status, her attractiveness and, yes, at times her race end up impacting how people -- how likely people are to, a, believe such allegations, and b, how the media ends up covering stories like this. >> and on that point, kelly, let me jump in. on friday, as you know, attorney joel bennett, said that his client -- the woman who reportedly got the $45,000 settlement from the restaurant association -- had been subjected to unwanted advances, that's the quote. unwanted advances by ini can't. but it would be extremely painful for her to go public. cnn covered it live. should cnn have covered it live? and is it unfair for those of us in the media to trumpet the allegations while this woman, willing to send her lawyer out there, isn't willing to put her name out there and remains anonymous? >> well, yes -- cnn should cover it because it's -- whether we like it or not, it's a news story, right? and it's become a major news story. i guess there's debate about whether it's the chicken or the egg there. the fact is it's a major news story. i do go back to, unfortunately -- i wish her all the best. i wish all the accusers their best, and they want their privacy. we've got another year this presidential campaign. if he's able to hang tough and stay in this campaign, i'm afraid to break it to everyone involved, how much longer these people are going to remain anonymo anonymous. >> kathleen? let me get kathleen back into the conversation. >> you're absolutely correct. it has become a huge news story. but it was made a huge news story by the news organizations themselves. and the most important thing is we don't know the facts. we don't know what was said -- >> except for -- >> i think he never expected this to come up. i don't know if he expected to be this far into the campaign at all. you know, the -- the fact is you don't -- as long as you don't know what happened, the system has already worked to the extent it was designed to work. these women filed a complaint, it was with -- internally found baseless. they resolved it with a settlement. by the way, that is routine in 90% of the cases. you can't -- herman cain would have had to spend $100,000 to defend himself against charge that could have just been a matter of personal perception. >> a couple things, howie, you said there was no physical contact. we have reported that there was physical contact. >> of what kind -- >> what's that? >> what kind -- >> physical contact. >> tell me what the physical contact was. >> the reporting was -- >> you can't -- did he put his arm around somebody, kiss somebody -- >> did he do that? >> secondly, the allegations do not say it was baseless. third of all, mr. cain's defense that he was only measuring his height was disputed by the attorney for that woman who spoke of multiple incidents over a series of months. >> why is "politico" continuing to hold back the names as well as other organizations? >> it was a decision by editors that for privacy reasons we were not going to report the names of women involved. >> even though the restaurant association, in the case of one woman we were discussing whose lawyer spoke on friday, has released her from the confidentiality agreement? she could go public. >> she could. >> on the other hand, if she says to the attorney she doesn't want to be the next anita hill, she doesn't want a media firestorm erupting. >> these women didn't go looking for this. it's a political hit, they said, let's see if it catches fire and see where it goes. >> i don't understand a political hit -- >> not you. i'm not saying are you making the political hit. somebody in the opposition camp -- >> sources -- >> obviously, obviously. >> two women accused him of sexual harassment and got a combined approximate $80,000 based on allegations. to me, that is newsworthy. and i think when people in this country are looking at candidates, it's important to know who they are, and about their past, but their character. >> i agree with you. i think it was newsworthy. i think what's important and my job in this world is to put things in proper context. all these other factors have to be included when you say this person was accused of sexual harassment, then you give the whole story of sexual harassment. how it's abuse, sometimes, how serious it is, when it is serious, and what a $35,000 settlement really means. >> kelly goff, could it have a chilling effect on future sexual harassment complaints? this is obviously a difficult and treacherous area in particularly corporate america. if some media web site were to go public with the names of the women involved, who obviously do not want their names made public? >> yes. but i think -- excuse me, what has -- even more chilling effect is the fact that sort of like racism, we're getting to a point where people just don't take these allegations seriously. and that diminishes it when people really do have a tough time. i mean, a blogger for "the national review" made a joke saying sexual harassment, is that still a real thing? and that to me is actually more chilling than what could potentially happen if this woman goes public. but it's just like rape allegations, howard. again, where she comes public, we find out her identity. the first question someone will ask is, is she attractive enough for someone to have sexually harassed, is she a golddigger? >> i take your point. i'm not going to ask who the sources are because journalists protect their sources. but the cain camp, mark block, chief of staff, made charges that rick perry's presidential campaign must be behind this. later backed off that a little bit. want to play for you an exchange that happened on fox news. >> you're charging the perry campaign with stirring this up. >> both the rick perry campaign and "politico" did the wrong thing by reporting something that wasn't true from anonymous sources. like i said, they all -- they owe herman cain and his family an apology. >> reporting something that wasn't true. >> i don't understand what he's saying this. mr. cain himself has confirmed that he was, in fact, accused and there were settlements. the organization that he formerly led friday put out a statement saying, yes, this woman did in fact accuse him. and she did in fact receive a settlement. and other news outlets have confirmed and advanced reporting. i'm not sure what he's talking about. >> the cain campaign suggesting it might sue "president clinton question o -- sue "politico." i'm going to say that will never happen. coming up, the cain controversy becomes a racially charged culture war. what about the conservative claims that the press is unfairly targeting a black candidate? confidence. available in color. depend for women is now peach. looks and fits like underwear. same great protection. depend. good morning. great day. ♪ we're centurylink ... we're committed to improving lives and linking americans to what matters most with honest, personal service... 5-year price-lock guarantees... consistently fast speeds ... and more ways to customize your technology. ♪ it took 48 hours, maybe less perhaps, for the herman cain story to become racially charged. here's some conservative commentators, we'll play the tape, comparing thesati situati with another high-profile incident that happened in 1991. >> clarence thomas used the term "high-tech lynching." is that accurate? >> it absolutely is, it's coming from the same people who used to do lynching with ropes. now they do it with a word processor. >> you mean the democratic party? >> yes! >> what's next, folks? a cartoon on more than showing herman cain with huge lips eating a watermelon? what are they going to do next? i'm not kidding. the racial stereotypes that that these people are using to go after herman cain, what is the one thing that it tells us? it -- well, it tells us who the real racists are. >> catherle-- kathleen parker, what evidence is there that this was racially motivated? >> none, i don't understand that charge whatsoever. and i know that ann kohler said, our blacks are better than theirs. i didn't realize they were ours. it seemed odd to me. this are things you can criticize cain on and independent of this issue. but none of it has any relationship what so ever to his race. i'm surprised that he would allow that because he's not -- >> he's done prmore than allow , keli goff, cain said, they, not saying who they are, are trying to intimidate me to convince other black conservatives to not go being. haven't we had other conservatives, most recently anthony weiner, to go public? >> herman cain said in the out, do you think racism plays a part in it, and he said, yes, i can't prove it, but i think yes. if you looked up irony in the dictionary, it would be people like rush limbaugh, ann colter, and herman cain who accuse the president and liberals of playing the race card, whipping out now. do i think race plays a p

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