york, a live look of the hearing room, the vice chair of the committee, liz cheney giving a preview yesterday. she says the panel will examine a plot by former president trump and attorney john eastman to prevent former vice president mike pence from counting lawful electoral votes. >> john: the hearing is expected to feature two witnesses, greg jacobs. served as special counsel, chief counsel, rather, to vice president pence and former federal judge who also advised mr. pence. ludig is called the last ditch effort to keep trump in power incorrect at every turn. we are going to pause for one moment to let our fox stations join us now. and this is fox special coverage of the third public hearing in the house select committee investigation of the january 6th insurrection. we are going to pause right now. >> all right, this is fox news special coverage of the third public hearing in the house select committee investigation of the january 6th capitol riot. i'm john roberts in washington, good afternoon. >> sandra: and welcome to our affiliates and the country. multiple public hearings will take place over the next few weeks. focus on claims that former president trump tried to pressure former vice president mike pence against counting the lawful electoral votes. it appears that we are going to hear from two witnesses this afternoon, and the committee says it will show previously unseen documents, video and audio. the hearing is underway now, let's go to washington. >> during today's hearing. good afternoon. this is almost no idea more un-american than the notion that any one person could choose the american president. no idea more un-american. i agree with that. which is unusual because former vice president mike pence and i don't agree on much. these are his words spoken a few months ago about donald trump's attempt to pressure the former vice president, pressure him into going along with an unlawful and unconstitutional scheme to overturn the 2020 election and give donald trump a second term in office that he did not win. today the select committee is going to reveal the details of that pressure campaign. what does the vice president of the united states even have to do with a presidential election? the constitution says that the vice president of the united states oversees the process of counting the electoral college votes. the process that took place on january 6, 2021. donald trump wanted mike pence to do something no other vice president has ever done. the former president wanted pence to reject the votes and either declare trump the winner or send the votes back to the states to be counted again. mike pence said no. he resisted the pressure. he knew it was illegal, he knew it was wrong. we are fortunate for mr. pence's courage on january 6th. our democracy came dangerously close to catastrophe. that courage put him in tremendous danger. when mike pence made it clear that he wouldn't give in to donald trump's scheme, donald trump turned the mob on him. a mob that was chanting "hang mike pence." a mob that had built a hang man's gallows outside the capitol. thanks in part to mike pence, our democracy withstood donald trump's scheme and the violence of january 6th. but the danger has not receded. thereby my colleague, will lay out the facts for the american people. but first, i recognize my colleague from wyoming, ms. cheney, for any opening statements she would care to offer. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. let me take just a few minutes today to put the topic of our hearing in broader context. in our last hearing we heard unequivocal testimony president trump was told his election fraud allegations were complete nonsense. we heard this from members of the trump campaign, we heard this from president trump's campaign lawyers, we heard this from president trump's former attorney general, bill barr, we heard this from president trump's former acting attorney general, jeff rosen. and we heard this from president trump's former acting deputy attorney general, richard donahue. and heard from his staff as well. today we are focusing on president trump's relentless effort to pressure mike pence to refuse to count electoral votes on january 6th. here again is how the former vice president phrased it in a speech before the federalist society, a group of conservative lawyers. >> for this week president trump said i had the right to overturn the election. president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. presidency belongs to the american people and the american people alone. and frankly, there is no idea more un-american than the notion that any one person could choose the american president. >> what the president wanted the vice president to do was not just wrong, it was illegal and unconstitutional. we will hear many details in today's hearing but please consider these two points. first, president trump was told repeatedly that mike pence lacked the constitutional and legal authority to do what president trump was demanding he do. the this is testimony from mark short, the vice president's chief of staff, who served in the trump administration multiple positions over are four years. >> just to pick up on that, mr. short, was it your impression the vice president had directly conveyed his position on these issues to the president, not just to the world through a dear colleague letter but directly to president trump. >> many times. >> and he had been consistent in conveying his position to the president. >> very consistent. >> ok. >> president trump plotted with a lawyer named john eastman to pressure pence to do so anyway. fed court has explained "based on the evidence, the court finds that it is more likely than not that president trump and dr. eastman dishonestly conspired to obstruct the joint session of congress on january 6, 2021." what exactly did president trump know, when exactly did president trump know that it would be illegal for mike pence to refuse to count electoral votes? here is one sample of testimony given which one of the witnesses before us today, the vice president's general counsel. >> did john eastman ever admit as far as you know in front of the president that his proposal would violate the electoral college? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> january 4th, two days before the attack on congress. the second point, please listen to testimony today about all of the ways that president trump attempted to pressure vice president pence, including donald trump's tweet at 2:24 p.m. condemning vice president mike pence when president trump already knew a violent riot was underway at the capitol. in future hearings you will hear from witnesses who were present inside the white house, who were present inside the west wing on that day. but today we focus on the earnest efforts of mike pence who was determined to abide by his oath of office. as vice president pence prepared a statement on january 5th and 6th, explaining that he could not illegally refuse to count electoral votes, said this to his staff. >> the vice president said this may be the most important thing i ever say. >> the statement. >> the statement. he really wanted to make sure that it was just said. >> you will hear today that president trump's white house counsel believed that the vice president did exactly the right thing on january 6th, as did others in the white house, as did fox news host sean hannity. vice president pence understood that his oath of office was more important than his loyalty to donald trump. he did his duty. president trump unequivocally did not. thank you, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> without objection, i recognize the gentleman from california, mr. aguilar for opening statement. >> thank you, we intend to show the american people that january 6th was not an isolated incident. in the weeks culminating before it was a legal scheme and deception. we have already learned that president trump knew he lost the 2020 election. shortly after he began to look for a way to circumvent the country's most fundamental civic tradition, a peaceful transfer of power. the president latched on to a dangerous theory and would not let go because he was convinced it would keep him in office. we witnessed firsthand what happened when the president of the united states weaponized this theory. the capitol was overrun, police officers lost their lives. and the vice president was taken to a secure location because his safety was in jeopardy. let's take a look at the effect of donald trump's words and actions. i want to warn our audience the video contains explicit content. >> mike pence is going to have to come through for us and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country. and mike pence, i hope you are going to stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country and if you're not, i'm going to be very disappointed in you, i will tell you right now. >> i'm telling you, hearing pence just caved. >> no. is that true? >> i'm hearing reports that pence caved. i'm telling you, if pence caved, we are gonna drag mother [bleep] through the streets. you [bleep] politicians are going to get [bleep] drug through the streets. >> the hope is there is such a show of force that pence will decide to do the right thing, according to trump. >> hang him up. run him out. bring him out. >> bring out pence. >> bring him out. >> bring out pence. >> how did we get to this point? how did we get to the point where president trump's most radical supporters led a violent attack on the capitol and threatened to hang president trump's own vice president? you'll hear from witnesses that donald trump pressured mike pence to adopt illegally and morally bankrupt idea the vice president can choose who the next president will be. hear how the vice president, white house counsel and others told donald trump that the vice president had no such authority. president trump would not listen. you'll hear how vice president pence withstood an onslaught of pressure from president trump, both publicly and privately. a pressure campaign that built to a fever pitch with a heated phone call on january 6th. you'll also hear that the president knew there was a violent mob at the capitol when he treated at 2:24 p.m. that the vice president did not have the "courage" to do what needed to be done. let me be clear. vice president pence did the right thing that day. he stayed true to his oath to protect and defend the constitution. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses this afternoon. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you, mr. aguilar. honored to have two distinguished witnesses who advised the president regarding his role on january 6th. michael ludig is one of the leading conservative thinkers in the country. served in administration's of president ronald reagan, and george h. w. bush. he was appointed by the latter to serve on the u.s. court of appeals for the fourth circuit where he served from 1991 to 2006. he provided critical advice for vice president pence regarding the role of the vice president in the joint session of congress shortly before that fateful moment. he's written that the vice president does not have the power to select the next president of the united states. he's also written that contrary theory ex poused by one of his former law clerks was "incorrect at every turn." we are also joined by one of the people who was with vice president pence on january 6th, greg jacob was counsel to vice president pence. he conducted a thorough analysis of the role of the vice president in the joint session of congress under the constitution. electoral count and 230 years of historical practice. but he also has firsthand information about the attack on the capitol because he lived through it. he was with the vice president and his own life was in danger. i will now swear in our witnesses. the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. thank you, you may be seated. let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. i now recognize myself for questions. in the united states, the people choose our representatives, including the highest official in the land, the president of the united states. the american people did this on november 3, 2020. president trump did not like the outcome. he did everything he could to change the result of the election. he tried litigation, 62 cases, in fact, and that failed. he tried to pressure state legislatures to reverse the results of the election in their states, but they refused. he tried to enlist the department of justice to overturn results but officials refused to comply. eventually he latched on to a nonsensical and undemocratic theory one man, his own vice president, could determine the outcome of the election. he wanted the vice president to unilaterally select the president. this theory that the vice president could unilaterally select the president runs completely contrary to our constitution, our laws and the entirety of our american experience, but that didn't stop, didn't matter to president trump. i would now like to explore how president trump came to latch on to this ridiculous legal theory that the vice president can select the president of the united states. mr. jacob, how did this theory first come to your attention? >> the first time that i had a conversation with the vice president, early december, called me over to his west wing office and told me that he had been seeing and reading things that suggested that he had significant role to play on january 6th in announcing the outcome of the election. he told me that he had been first elected to congress in 2000 and that one of his earliest memories as a congressman was sitting in on the 2001 certification and he recalled that al gore had gavelled down a number of objections that had been raised to florida. and he asked me mechanically what are the rules. i told the vice president i had a fairly good idea how things worked but actually there are not rules that govern the joint session but what there is is a provision of the constitution, just one sentence long, and then an electoral count act that had been passed in 1887 and i told the vice president that i could put a memo together for him overnight that would explain the applicable rules. >> so mr. jacob when you looked at this theory, what did you conclude? >> so we concluded that what you have is a sentence in the constitution that is inartfully drafted, but the vice president's first instinct when he heard this theory was that there was no way that our framers, abhorred concentrated power, broken away from the tyranny of george iii, would ever have put one person, particularly not a person who had a direct interest in the outcome because they were on the ticket for the election, in a role to have decisive impact on the outcome of the election. and a review of texts, history and frankly just common sense all confirmed the vice president's first instinct on that point. there is no justifiable basis to conclude that the vice president has that kind of authority. >> thank you, mr. jacob. we will hear more today about how despite this conclusion by you and other top legal advisers, the former president used this discredited theory in his campaign to pressure the vice president to decide the outcome of the presidential election. i now recognize ms. cheney for questions. >> thank you very much. judge ludig, thank you as well for being with us today. you issued a very important statement earlier today which i urge all americans to read, and i would like to ask you, judge, about one of the sentences in your statement and ask if you could explain to us the significance of it. you say, had the vice president of the united states obeyed the president of the united states, america would immediately have been plunged into what would have been tantamount to a revolution to a paralyzing constitutional crisis. could you elaborate on that for us, judge? >> thank you, madam vice chair. that passage in my statement this morning referenced the most foundational concept in america which is the rule of law. thus as i interpret your question you were asking about that foundational truth of these united states which we call america. the foundational truth is the rule of law. that foundational truth is for the united states of america the profound truth. but it's not merely the profound truth for the united states. it's also the simple truth, the simple foundational truth of the american republic, thus in my view the hearing is being conducted by this select committee are examining that profound truth, namely the rule of law in the united states of america. the specific question, of course, before you and before the nation, not before me, is whether that foundational rule of law was supremely violated on january 6, 2021. now, to the question specifically that you asked, madam vice chair. i believe that had vice president pence obeyed the orders from his president and the president of the united states of america during the joint session of the congress of the united states on january 6, 2021, and declared donald trump the next president of the united states, notwithstanding that then president trump had lost the electoral college vote as well as the popular vote in the 2020 presidential election. that declaration of donald trump as the next president would have plunged america into what i believe would have been tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis in america which in my view, and i'm only one man, would have been the first constitutional crisis since the founding of the republic. >> thank you very much, judge, for your solemn attention to these issues and for your appearance here today. we are going to describe and discuss in detail what happened and as we do i'm going to describe a few of the details now of some of the actions taken by a gentleman named kenneth cheeseboro, after the electoral college met and cast their votes on december 14th, actually the day before they met, kenneth cheeseboro sent a memo to rudy giuliani, the president's lead outside counsel, mr. cheeseboro wrote to mayor guliani that the vice president is charged with "making judgments about what to do if there are conflicting votes." mr. cheeseboro wrote when the joint session of congress got to arizona and the alphabetical list of states the vice president should not count the biden votes "because there are two slates of votes." his justification which we will learn more about in our next hearing was that a group of trump supporters in arizona and other swing states decided to proclaim themselves the true electors for the state, creating two sets of electors. the official electors selected by the state and a group of fake electors. this document was ordered to be produced to the select committee by a federal district court judge. as you will see on this screen shortly, judge david carter wrote "the draft memo pushed a strategy that knowingly violated the electoral count act". the judge concluded" clearly advance the plan to obstruct the joint session of congress on january 6, 2021." a few days later professor john eastman took up this cause. eastman was at the time a law professor at chapman university law school. he prepared a memo outlining the nonsensical theory that the vice president could decide the outcome of the election at the joint session of congress on january 6th. you will see portions of this memo on the screen. in the first line he wrote "seven states have transmitted dual slates of electors to the president of the senate." but dr. eastman goes on to rely on those so-called dual slates of electors to say that vice president pence could simply declare president trump the winner of the 2020