he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. >> now with challenges to some of her testimony, republicans are dismissing her testimony. >> a partisan witch hunt. >> i'll talk to committee member zoe lofgren, and danny cevallos about the legal jeopardy mr. trump may now be in. plus, after roe. >> i don't think it could get more confusing. >> abortion restrictions are being challenged. >> the trigger law is an extreme law. >> i'll talk to hhs secretary xavier becerra. >> democrats' growing doubt about president biden. democrats have a very deep bench. it's time to allow a new generation to emerge and new talent. >> why more democrats, mostly off the record, are saying the president shouldn't run for re-election. joining me now are former homeland security secretary jeh johnson. nbc news capitol hill correspondent. the american enterprise institute. and marriana sotomayor of "the washington post." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> a good sunday morning. i hope you're enjoying this july 4th weekend. but even as the country celebrates, the 246th anniversary of our independence, the lines that separate us seem to be growing bolder and brighter by the way. abortion rights advocates versus abortion opponents. americans eager to limit the availability of guns versus second amendment enthusiasts. climate change versus drill, baby drill. blue versus red, left versus right. and nobody aggravates our wounds more than donald trump. on tuesday in the unscheduled fifth hearing of the january 6th committee, we heard shocking testimony that has been compared to watergate's john dean. former white house aide cassidy hutchinson described nothing less than a violent coup attempt, urged on by a president, who was more active participant than passive observer. she testified mr. trump knew the mob was armed, wanted to go to the capitol with them. and even agreed that mike pence deserved to be hanged and was in danger of being declared unfit to serve by a majority of his cabinet. >> knives, guns, pistols and rifles. bear spray. body armor. >> three men walking down the street with ar-15s. >> i overheard the president say, i don't care if they have weapons. let my people in, they can mar march to the capitol from here. >> president trump was aware that a number of the individuals in the crowd had weapons and were wearing body armor. and here is what president trump instructed the crowd to do. >> we're going to walk down, and i'll be there with you. we'll walk down to the capitol. >> described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of, i'm the "f"-ing president, take me up to the capitol now. to which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up towards the front of his vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. inning engle grabbed his arm, said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge towards bobby engel. >> hang mike pence! >> i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they are literally calling for the vice president to be hung. and mark responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat. he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. >> joining me now is democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren of california, on the january 6th committee, welcome back to "meet the press." >> good morning. >> let me start with your reaction to the former president and a couple people around him disputing certain parts of the testimony. i know not the larger part but some of the specific details. what do you make of that pushback, congresswoman? >> well, we always expected trump world to try and discredit her, and they're not disappointing us in that regard. i thought her testimony was credible. she has nothing to gain by stepping forward and telling the truth and trump world has everything to lose by the truth. so they are doing their best to try and attack her, to discredit her. you know, i am not surprised by this effort. but it is not the right thing to do. >> can you describe the efforts the committee makes to corroborate some of the charges ms. hutchinson made before she appeared? did you contact secret service, some of these other entities? >> well, we had interviewed mr. orano to several times. his memory does not appear to be as precise as hers. we would certainly welcome them to come back if they wish to do that. but her overall testimony that the president -- then president wanted to go to the capitol is consistent with other testimony that we have received. certainly her testimony that she directly overheard president trump saying that he didn't care if they had weapons, if the crowd had weapons, that they were not going to hurt him, and that they could march to the capitol with their weapons after the speech. that was new. and stunning, really. >> you know, there's always cameras on the presidential motorcade. have you gotten any footage? it's possible there is footage of the alleged incident in the suv. have you guys subpoenaed that footage? whether it's from news organizations or the secret service? >> we'll look at everything. but i think it's important to note ms. hutchinson was relating a story that mr. ornato told to her. she wasn't in the vehicle, she didn't see it. she was relating what he told her. the important thing is that no one is disputing that trump wanted to go to the capitol. he even said so in his speech. there's a lot of evidence when he went back to the white house. he still wanted to go to the capitol, and was certainly well aware of the violence that was going on. >> you made a diplomatic response about mr. ornato saying he seems to not have a precise memory. a congresswoman told me earlier this week, adam kinzinger said that mr. ornato likes to lie. has mr. ornato testified under oath in any of these interviews that you have had with him? >> it's important to note that it's -- if you lie to congress, it's a crime, whether or not you're under oath. >> was he under oath? >> it's a crime to lie to congress whether you come in for an interview or deposition. i'll say this. mr. ornato was a political appointee of president trump at the time. unlike all prior secret service agents protecting the president, he was appointed to be deputy assistant to the president. and so he was involved in clearing the square so the president could hold up a bible in front of the church. i mean, he was involved in all of that. he's part of trump world. >> i understand that. you've been hesitant to confirm or deny whether he was under oath. i understand what you're saying, it's still a crime to lie to congress. is it that you're not sure he was under oath or he was not under oath? >> i believe he was under oath. but certainly if he wants to come back and clarify his prior information, he will also be under oath. i think it's a mistake to focus on whether or not he was lying to ms. hutchinson when he relayed that story. the fact is, the president knew his crowd was armed. we heard the capitol, the metropolitan police describing seeing assault weapons on this crowd. he wanted to go down to the capitol with them. he said that in his speech. we have a lot of evidence even when he returned to the white house. >> let me ask you about pat cipollone. you put a subpoena out to him last week. why now? why not two, three, four months ago? >> we have been engaging with mr. cipollone. he did have an informal interview or discussion. that was all he was willing to do. but there have been ongoing discussions to see if he would come in and talk further. after ms. hutchinson's testimony, that was so informative, it's very clear that we would like him to come in. now, i know that he's concerned about executive privilege. >> right. >> that's not -- that's not an absolute immunity. it falls when there is something more important, and that is true in this case. and certainly the current president, mr. biden, has waived executive privilege on most occasions when it comes to getting the truth about the events leading up to january 6th. >> you want him to come in for a deposition on july 6th. is that going to happen on july 6th? >> well, i hope so. our intention is to hear from him, and i think given the testimony of ms. hutchinson, that he was trying to prevent crimes from being committed on that day, i would assume he would want to come in. >> i want you to react to this "new york times" lead. the federal prosecutors working on the case were just as astonished as hutchinson's account as other viewers. the panel did not provide them, meaning doj, with videos or transcripts with committee members before hand, leaving them feeling blind sided. is that a fair characterization, that you blindsided justice on this? >> i don't think so. we're not an arm of the department of justice. we're the legislative committee. they have subpoena power. they could subpoena ms. hutchinson. i'm surprised they have not done so. we interviewed her four times. i think that's publicly known at this point. >> yeah. >> and the fourth interview was very compelling. and it's obvious she's being intimidated, people are trying to discredit her, people are trying to dissuade her from testifying. the trump world was paying for her lawyers, which was very problematic for her. she changed lawyers and got an independent lawyer. and then proceeded. i was surprised that the prosecutors were surprised. what are they doing over there? they have a much greater opportunity to enforce their subpoenas than our legislative committee does. >> that's a point some of us were discussing this morning. the last question is the issue of so-called witness tampering. do you feel like you have enough evidence to prove that is what's happened? >> well, i don't know. charging someone with a crime is not our opportunity. we can't do that. we're a legislative committee. but i will say this. but if witnesses are being intimidated, we don't plan to just sit by and allow that to happen. we're going to raise a stink about it. we're going to refer information publicly to the department of justice if witnesses are intimidated. because it's a crime. it's a crime to do that. >> we're going to see cassidy hutchinson testify one more time? >> i don't know yet. i always leave the chair to announce the hearings. >> congresswoman lofgren, good to see you. thank you for coming on. >> happy fourth of july. >> you, too. the hearings have raised the prospect that former president trump faces real legal liability for his actions before and on january 6th. among them, obstructing a congressional proceeding. conspiracy to defraud the united states. seditious conspiracy. wire fraud. and as we were just talking about, possible witness tampering. joining me now to go through this is our nbc news legal analyst danny cevallos. which are the charges that the former president ought to be really concerned about? >> you had the one that is most pertinent, dead last on that list and that is witness tampering. the reason i say so is that congress specifically enacted the relevant statute in order to make it more expansive and cover any official proceeding. it doesn't need to be a grand jury or judicial proceeding, and the witness doesn't even have to testify. the witness doesn't even need to have firsthand knowledge. this statute criminalizes any kind of harassment or corrupt persuasion in order to prevent a witness from communicating information to law enforcement. and i've got to tell you, i have defended cases where is the corrupt persuasion standard is in play. and when you look up what it means to do something corruptly, the definition, is an improper purpose. so you're back at square one. the point i make there is that it's very malleable. and the government knows that and why they succeed very often -- >> you think it's an easier case to bring? >> absolutely. any time you have that corrupt persuasion standard, and it appears in other statutes in the u.s. code, it makes it relatively easy to prove an improper purpose. what is an improper purpose? it might be preventing this information from going to law enforcement. not necessarily testifying under oath. that was congress' intent when it passed section 1512. to make this sweep as broadly as possible and to protect witnesses. >> what about his actions on january 6th? it more and more looks like he was an active participant rather than a passive observer. is there a there there? >> according to judge david carter, whom had an opinion several months ago. now, i caution folks that in laying out a kind of map for prosecuting trump and john eastman for say conspiracy to, i guess, defraud the united states or to obstruct the proceeding, if you're looking for that, this opinion does give kind of a road map, but it was in the context of deciding that there was no privilege. so folks should understand it has no direct effect. it's not the effect of a probable cause finding. it's almost like an advisory opinion. it's almost like the judge saying here's my take on it. but it only goes to whether or not privilege applies. but folks at the time pointed out correctly that this provided a basic road map for doj officials, very much like these congressional hearings are providing a road map for the doj. but at the same time, i put an asterisks on that. because whatever power the committee has to obtain information, the doj has super powers compared to the committee. >> that's exactly what the congresswoman was just saying. in fact, when she was responding to this idea that justice was shocked by cassidy hutchinson's testimony. she basically said they have more powerful subpoenas than congress does. what does it tell you that a witness surprised them? does it tell you that their investigation is not as thorough yet? >> it tells me, if that's true, hutchinson must have flown under their radar, because the doj has vast abilities to investigate, much more than a congressional committee. by the way, chuck, in the last few years, we have all seen what happens if a witness doesn't want to comply with a congressional subpoena. forget it, i'm not showing up. it's up to congress to go through its, well, let's say questionable abilities to enforce those subpoenas. meanwhile, the doj, when it wants a subpoena enforced, it enforces the subpoena. they can go to a judge and get a search warrant, which is even more powerful, and in a grand jury proceeding, everything is secret. we don't know what they're looking at unless or until they indict. >> let's take her word that she flew under the radar. it does seem as if they have a lot of effort on the people who went after the capitol, they have a lot of effort on some of the far-right violent groups. they're doing something on the elector front. we saw all that action. it does not look like they penetrated the west wing. that's essentially what they're admitting here, that they have not yet touched the president. do you think that's a garland decision? >> it is a garland decision. all of these committee hearings are for the public, but also for an audience of one, and that's merrick garland. the d.o.j. is going to be circumspect about what they have and what they don't have. do i think they were truly shocked by what hutchinson said? only if she stated something under oath that was never before disclosed. that's in my mind the only way the doj could have been surprised. because chuck, this is an institution, the doj, that was built to investigate. it was built to persuade witnesses to come in and talk to them or to testify. i mean, when you see a witness testify under oath, that's kind of the end of the long path. the doj has so many tools to get somebody to come in and bear their soul, reminding them they may be in huge trouble for lying to a federal agent. >> we know how long doj has been working on this. when do you think they would have enough to pursue indictments, six months, a year? >> that's the big question, when and do they have enough? the doj was designed to investigate, and for what, since their inception, they do not let you know. they don't give a status report on where they are with investigations. they remain silent, and sometimes you or anyone else -- >> that's why we need people like you to tell us this happened, this happened. >> people who may be targets may never known they were target it is the doj declines to indict. that's how secret they are. how many more tools they have to not only persuade people to come in and talk to them, but obtain documents, search warrants, likes like that. so this whole part about cassidy hutchinson shocking the d.o.j., that might be a little bit of spin on their part. if she was on their radar, the doj would have been all over it. >> if she's not on their radar, you have to wonder how thorough they are being. when we come become, tuesday's hearing portrayed donald trump as out of control. how much does it matter to the republican party that's been involved? the panel is next. every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. welcome back. the panel is here. >> so with donald trump we've been here a million times, started with attacking john mccain, and you have the "access hollywood" tape and you think this is the one, this is the one. is this the one? is this week the one? >> no. there has been so much smoke from these smoking guns over six years that it clouds your eyes there is questions about the testimony of ms. hutchinson. i think it's still a long way from her testimony to getting merrick garland to file charges against a former president of the united states. while i think this is a reminder to the country of donald trump's irresponsible impeachable actions after the election of 2020, i don't think it's a smoking gun. >> there's so much space between those two things like getting the doj to file and anything changing for trump, there's so much space between those things. when you see people like the washington examiner coming out and saying he shouldn't be president again, there are metrics that are changing. it was always true during the trump years that republicans were always more comfortable saying privately and in text messages than they were on television, that this was a very bad thing. but you're sort of getting to a point where you almost can't avoid saying that, when the thing in dispute here is like grabbing at a steering wheel. but the thing that's not in dispute is the thing that he wanted to go to the capitol and lead the rioters. >> have you heard from republicans quietly, like, all right, i'm out or not yet? >> oh, no. i mean, i was texting a couple of aides who worked for lawmakers who are still very close to trump. everyone is pushing it aside. before trump said on his social media platform, cassidy hutchinson, none of this is true, she is an outsider to us. these aides were already saying that. they all say that this is not going to play a role in the midterms. no one is paying attention to this. if you can them about '24, though, and what it means for trump and actually running, that's when they get a little squeamish. >> it's easier for them to say that. >> i have to begin with this. while a lot of men are hiding under their desk in lawyer's offices, this hearing has really been a profile in courage among women. caroline edwards, cassidy hutchinson and liz cheney. i thi