would have been in constant session, but you are right, it is a judgment about how you are putting things up, when you put them together, and obviously trying to make sure that the culture is of collaboration and high trust and so on, so that the boundary issues, boundaries are interfaces, not barriers. find boundary issues, boundaries are interfaces, not barriers. and when ou've interfaces, not barriers. and when you've divided. — interfaces, not barriers. and when you've divided, my _ interfaces, not barriers. and when you've divided, my final— interfaces, not barriers. and when you've divided, my final question, | you've divided, my final question, but it is my inquiry, i will change the rules! laughter erm. .. laughter erm... when you have different bodies doing different aspects how do you make sure that the final decision—makers, obviously the most important, the key decisions, which is what module two is all about, that they do have all of the fact is there that they can balance, so that you have obviously the economic advice, the socio—economic advice, the sage advice, how do you as cabinet secretary ensure that your ultimate decision—maker, or decision—makers, prime minister and cabinet, get all those balancing factors and that sufficient weight is paid to all of them? the factors and that sufficient weight is paid to all of them?— factors and that sufficient weight is paid to all of them? the key to that, my lady. — is paid to all of them? the key to that. my lady. is _ is paid to all of them? the key to that, my lady, is that _ is paid to all of them? the key to that, my lady, is that it - is paid to all of them? the key to that, my lady, is that it is - is paid to all of them? the key to| that, my lady, is that it is cabinet or at least a cabinet committee in which the key departments involved are represented. so, that, for example, the impact of any decision on the provision of benefits, it's really important to state for work and pensions is in the room, at the table, and he orshe and pensions is in the room, at the table, and he or she will have been briefed by their department, not just on what they think about the main crisis, but on what the impact would be for them and how they are going to manage it, the same with the treasury, obviously, and others. so, the departmental structure means that ministers should be coming both as members of the cabinet but advocates for the sector or sectors for which they are responsible and that all of that input is brought into a collective decision. that is why collective decision—making is generally better than decisions being made by a small cohort right at the very centre. rooms that you have pre—empted what was going to be my final comment, not question, but that which is, but that does depend on the collective decision—making taking place? indeed. on the collective decision-making taking place? indeed.— taking place? indeed. right, sorry to have printed _ taking place? indeed. right, sorry to have printed some _ taking place? indeed. right, sorry to have printed some of _ taking place? indeed. right, sorry to have printed some of our - to have printed some of our questions. i think you are going next...? migs, iop migs, iop have for the scottish covid _ migs, iop have for the scottish covid bereaved. ialso migs, iop have for the scottish covid bereaved. i also wish to ask some _ covid bereaved. i also wish to ask some questions about structures in place, _ some questions about structures in place. and — some questions about structures in place, and making sure that the devolved — place, and making sure that the devolved of ministrations are pmperly— devolved of ministrations are properly engaged, which is what you have just _ properly engaged, which is what you have just reflected on. —— i appear. you have _ have just reflected on. —— i appear. you have identified in your evidence so far_ you have identified in your evidence so far that _ you have identified in your evidence so far that you sought to build strong — so far that you sought to build strong relationships between the devolved administrations, both institutional and personal, and you indicated _ institutional and personal, and you indicated that you had conversations for example with nicola sturgeon, the first _ for example with nicola sturgeon, the first minister. what i would like the first minister. what i would tike to— the first minister. what i would like to know is, was there then, or is there _ like to know is, was there then, or is there how. _ like to know is, was there then, or is there now, any formal structure or forum _ is there now, any formal structure or forum for— is there now, any formal structure or forum for you as cabinet secretary— or forum for you as cabinet secretary to liaise with the heads of the _ secretary to liaise with the heads of the civit— secretary to liaise with the heads of the civil service of the devolved administrations?— administrations? yes, there is, at the government _ administrations? yes, there is, at the government to _ administrations? yes, there is, at the government to level, - administrations? yes, there is, at the government to level, as - administrations? yes, there is, at the government to level, as you l administrations? yes, there is, at l the government to level, as you will be very familiar, the joint ministerial coveting which brings them all together. the permanent secretaries for the scottish, welsh government and northern ireland, were all part of the wider permanent secretaries group. so, it is known as wednesday morning colleagues, for reasons that obviously itjust meets on a wednesday. and i would always include them, as of right, they were always included in those meetings, it was not something i had decided. i would also have informal get—togethers with the permanent secretaries of the devolved administrations, because there were particular, in smaller groups, just a three orfour of particular, in smaller groups, just a three or four of us, because there were obviously particular issues of concern to them. so, there was the overarching structure which almost replicated cabinet plus dhs and then informal meetings as well. you replicated cabinet plus dhs and then informal meetings as well.— informal meetings as well. you have robabl informal meetings as well. you have probably pre-empted _ informal meetings as well. you have probably pre-empted my _ probably pre—empted my question, which was whether or not there were structures that you would have liked to have been in place during the first period, the most, i suppose, difficult and fast moving period of over striking our shores. and i ask that in particular because we are aware that the joint ministerial committees were not being used. h0. committees were not being used. no, they weren't. — committees were not being used. idfr, they weren't, but the ministerial cobras, i think almost all, maybe even all, in that phase, included devolved administration ministers, and the staff work behind that at official level would certainly have done so. so i think in that phase, the liaison with the devolved administrations recognising that we were trying to move in lockstep in many areas which were devolved, but maintain coordination, i think that worked pretty well. and of course they had their own chief medical officers and they would meet as a group as well. so i think the connective tissue in that first phase was pretty strong and the cobras were uk cobras. can i after that happen _ cobras were uk cobras. can i after that happen by _ cobras were uk cobras. can i after that happen by happenstance - cobras were uk cobras. can i after that happen by happenstance or. cobras were uk cobras. can i after. that happen by happenstance or was there a formal decision taken to form it that way? i there a formal decision taken to form it that way?— form it that way? i think it wouldn't _ form it that way? i think it wouldn't have _ form it that way? i think it wouldn't have occurred - form it that way? i think it wouldn't have occurred to | form it that way? i think it. wouldn't have occurred to me form it that way? i think it - wouldn't have occurred to me to do it any other way. i don't recall anyone challenging it. certainly at that stage. and had they done so, i would have replied robustly that this was necessary. if i would have replied robustly that this was necessary.— would have replied robustly that this was necessary. if i can move another tepic_ this was necessary. if i can move another topic now, _ this was necessary. if i can move another topic now, and - this was necessary. if i can move another topic now, and that - this was necessary. if i can move another topic now, and that is i this was necessary. if i can move another topic now, and that is in | another topic now, and that is in relation to communications between the devolved administration and uk government. if i could have up on the screen inquiry number 000 2502 29, and that is paragraph 147 page 39. what you say, and just that first paragraph was... i was conscious that, notwithstanding their diverging political agenda and differing styles of governance, the prime minister and the devolved administration first ministers had reached much the same conclusion about the timing and nature of the first lockdown, it's socio—economic mitigations and its release. now, also you gave evidence this morning where you were being asked about when the decision for lockdown had been taken, and you were asked when that had been. and you responded by agreeing to a proposition that my learned friend had put to you and said... i presume that parallel processes were happening in edinburgh, cardiff and belfast there was a lot of communication between them. what i'm just wanting to check is, is it the communication between the devolved administrations themselves or communications between themselves or communications between the devolved administration and the uk government? . the devolved administration and the uk government?— the devolved administration and the uk government? , both. iwould have imauined uk government? , both. iwould have imagined that — uk government? , both. iwould have imagined that they _ uk government? , both. iwould have imagined that they might... _ uk government? , both. iwould have imagined that they might... they - imagined that they might... they might be talking among the three about all of their relationships with the uk government, just given the obvious disparity. but there was certainly extensive and i think almost constant communication between officials in supporting ministers going into those meetings. when i said parallel processes, i think we were talking about the the pro reach over some of those crucial days. pro reach over some of those crucial da s. pro reach over some of those crucial days- what _ pro reach over some of those crucial days- what i _ pro reach over some of those crucial days.- what i meant - pro reach over some of those crucial days.- what i meant by - pro reach over some of those crucial days.- what i meant by that| days. indeed. what i meant by that was that for— days. indeed. what i meant by that was that for example _ days. indeed. what i meant by that was that for example the _ days. indeed. what i meant by that was that for example the first - was that for example the first minister in scotland would be with her team, saying, what we need to do, what is the situation in scotland? london was further ahead than the rest of the country, she probably asked whether scotland was a bit behind and did she have more time, i don't know, but that is the kind of thing i would have expected. and then it was brought together in the ministerial uk cobras, which made the formal decisions and where the heads of all of the administrations were able to liaise. and there would have been intensive official contact before.— official contact before. indeed, thank you _ official contact before. indeed, thank you. were _ official contact before. indeed, thank you. were you _ official contact before. indeed, thank you. were you aware - official contact before. indeed, thank you. were you aware ofl official contact before. indeed, i thank you. were you aware of any representations from the scottish government to introduce a mandatory lockdown prior to the date of lockdown, the 23rd of march 2020? no, and nor indeed i have no further questions, my lady for thank you very much. mr questions, my lady for thank you very much-— questions, my lady for thank you ve much. ~ ,, �* very much. mr dale, i think you're auoin very much. mr dale, i think you're going next — very much. mr dale, i think you're going next don't — very much. mr dale, i think you're going next don't worry _ very much. mr dale, i think you're going next don't worry about - very much. mr dale, i think you're going next don't worry about mr i going next don't worry about mr dale, _ going next don't worry about mr date. he — going next don't worry about mr dale, he will take your voice away from _ dale, he will take your voice away from the — dale, he will take your voice away from the microphone if you turn around — from the microphone if you turn around. a, , ., around. maybe i will turn for the ruestion, around. maybe i will turn for the question. if— around. maybe i will turn for the question, if that _ around. maybe i will turn for the question, if that is _ around. maybe i will turn for the question, if that is ok. - around. maybe i will turn for the question, if that is ok. thank i around. maybe i will turn for the l question, if that is ok. thank you, m lad . question, if that is ok. thank you, my lady- lord _ question, if that is ok. thank you, my lady. lord sedwill, _ question, if that is ok. thank you, my lady. lord sedwill, i _ question, if that is ok. thank you, my lady. lord sedwill, i ask- my lady. lord sedwill, iask questions _ my lady. lord sedwill, iask questions on _ my lady. lord sedwill, iask questions on behalf - my lady. lord sedwill, iask questions on behalf of - my lady. lord sedwill, iask questions on behalf of the i questions on behalf of the federation _ questions on behalf of the federation of— questions on behalf of the federation of ethnic - federation of ethnic minority heatthcare _ federation of ethnic minority healthcare organisations. . federation of ethnic minority i healthcare organisations. three short— healthcare organisations. three short sets — healthcare organisations. three short sets of _ healthcare organisations. three short sets of questions. - healthcare organisations. three short sets of questions. as - healthcare organisations. three short sets of questions. as you i healthcare organisations. three - short sets of questions. as you may know, _ short sets of questions. as you may know. there — short sets of questions. as you may know, there were _ short sets of questions. as you may know, there were press— short sets of questions. as you may know, there were press reports- short sets of questions. as you may know, there were press reports of. short sets of questions. as you may know, there were press reports of a disproportionate _ know, there were press reports of a disproportionate death _ know, there were press reports of a disproportionate death rate - disproportionate death rate for covid _ disproportionate death rate for covid within _ disproportionate death rate for covid within black, _ disproportionate death rate for covid within black, asian - disproportionate death rate for covid within black, asian and i disproportionate death rate for- covid within black, asian and ethnic n1inority— covid within black, asian and ethnic minority communities _ covid within black, asian and ethnic minority communities during - minority communities during the early— minority communities during the early stages _ minority communities during the early stages of _ minority communities during the early stages of the _ minority communities during the early stages of the pandemic. i minority communities during thel early stages of the pandemic. for example. — early stages of the pandemic. for example. the _ early stages of the pandemic. for example, the guardian _ early stages of the pandemic. for example, the guardian of- early stages of the pandemic. for example, the guardian of the - early stages of the pandemic. fori example, the guardian of the 10th early stages of the pandemic. for. example, the guardian of the 10th of april reported — example, the guardian of the 10th of april reported that _ example, the guardian of the 10th of april reported that the _ example, the guardian of the 10th of april reported that the first - example, the guardian of the 10th of april reported that the first ten - april reported that the first ten doctors — april reported that the first ten doctors to— april reported that the first ten doctors to die _ april reported that the first ten doctors to die were _ april reported that the first ten doctors to die were from - april reported that the first ten doctors to die were from bamej doctors to die were from bame background _ doctors to die were from bame background. so, _ doctors to die were from bame background. so, my— doctors to die were from bame background. so, my first - doctors to die were from bame i background. so, my first question is, how— background. so, my first question is, how seriously _ background. so, my first question is, how seriously was _ background. so, my first question is, how seriously was this - background. so, my first question is, how seriously was this issue i is, how seriously was this issue taken _ is, how seriously was this issue taken at — is, how seriously was this issue taken at the _ is, how seriously was this issue taken at the cabinet _ is, how seriously was this issue taken at the cabinet office, - is, how seriously was this issue taken at the cabinet office, if. taken at the cabinet office, if there — taken at the cabinet office, if there was— taken at the cabinet office, if there was indeed _ taken at the cabinet office, if there was indeed awareness. taken at the cabinet office, if. there was indeed awareness of taken at the cabinet office, if- there was indeed awareness of this issue _ there was indeed awareness of this issue during — there was indeed awareness of this issue during the _ there was indeed awareness of this issue during the months _ there was indeed awareness of this issue during the months of- there was indeed awareness of this issue during the months of march i there was indeed awareness of this . issue during the months of march and april 2020? _ issue during the months of march and a-ril 2020? ., ~ issue during the months of march and aril2020? ., ~ _, issue during the months of march and aril 2020? ., ~ _, ~ issue during the months of march and a-ril2020? ., ~ ,., ~ ., april 2020? thank you. i think going into the first — april 2020? thank you. i think going into the first lockdown, _ april 2020? thank you. i think going into the first lockdown, of _ april 2020? thank you. i think going into the first lockdown, of course, i into the first lockdown, of course, it was country and societywide, so in a sense there was no discussion about whether there would be different kinds of measures taken for different groups on ethnic or indeed other grounds. it was certainly a feature in considering the mitigations for the lockdown, so, as we were developing programs to deal with the consequences of lockdown for different groups, we were certainly conscious of it, and as you say the evidence did start to be made available quite early about differential impact. it was quite challenging to understand whether that evidence was telling us something about whether the virus had a purely ethnic differential impact, to do with a felicity, or the degree to which that was overlain by social factors such as multigenerational households, denser living and so on. but certainly mitigating the lockdown and in considering measures to come out, we were conscious of those factors, and were conscious of those factors, and we were particularly conscious of the enforcement mechanisms. i recall in early april seeing some quite sobering data that suggested i think in london for example, it was one of the ethnic minority communities, i can't remember which, had a much higher incidence of enforcement from the metropolitan police namely pop elation as a whole, and that was clearly a concern, and of course not for the first time had one had that kind of consideration about the relations between police and certain communities, so, we were conscious of all of these things. titer? communities, so, we were conscious of all of these things.— of all of these things. very well. m four of all of these things. very well. my four second _ of all of these things. very well. my four second question, - of all of these things. very well. my four second question, which | of all of these things. very well. | my four second question, which i hope is not too much of a tutorial question, is, what were the mechanisms, formal and informal, for issues affecting certain population groups being raised with senior decision—makers? in groups being raised with senior decision-makers?— decision-makers? in normal circumstances, _ decision-makers? in normal circumstances, for - decision-makers? in normal circumstances, for a - decision-makers? in normal circumstances, for a major l decision-makers? in normal- circumstances, for a major policy decision but there would have to be an equality impact assessment, and that a standard process that involves consultation, interaction with community groups and academic research et cetera, in order to make sure that a final decision by ministers on a policy matter public understands and encompasses the potential impact on ethnic minorities but also other protective groups. whetherfor minorities but also other protective groups. whether for gender, sexuality, whatever it might be. going into the lockdown, of course, there was no time to be able to do any of that. and formal equality impact assessments are quite an involved process, so, even as we were coming out, it would not have been possible to do them in a timely way, in what one might call the full fat version of an equality impact assessment, but i certainly would have expected the policy work, and i believe this was the case, to take account of those factors, as choices were being put to ministers about, for example, that release of that first lockdown, which would have covered social, economic, ethnic and other factors, covered social, economic, ethnic and otherfactors, so covered social, economic, ethnic and other factors, so that there was essentially an intelligent consideration of those. thank you. my third and final question, which hopes for verification on a point of fact, —— clarification, how did the impact of disparate effects on black, asian and minority ethnic communities reach senior decision—makers, if it did? reach senior decision-makers, if it did? ., �* ., ., ., did? one wouldn't have a parallel rocess did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for— did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. _ did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. of _ did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. of course - did? one wouldn't have a parallel process for this. of course there l process for this. of course there would _ process for this. of course there would be — process for this. of course there would be informal feedback. i mentioned in answer to a question earlier, _ mentioned in answer to a question earlier, i_ mentioned in answer to a question earlier, i think the role of cabinet ministers — earlier, i think the role of cabinet ministers as constituency mps as well as— ministers as constituency mps as well as ministers, that's a mechanism by which they can bring that perspective. but the policy process— that perspective. but the policy process itself is designed to include _ process itself is designed to include those factors and therefore decisions _ include those factors and therefore decisions coming to cabinet or the prime _ decisions coming to cabinet or the prime minister or ministers should encompass — prime minister or ministers should encompass all of those factors. that is what _ encompass all of those factors. that is what a _ encompass all of those factors. that is what a good policy process are designed — is what a good policy process are designed to do.