independent treasury officials have costed labour �*s policies and they amount to a £2000 tax rights for working family. it looks like now the chief treasury civil servant actually wrote to labour at two days ago saying the conservative assessment of their tax plan should not be presented as having been produced by the civil service. the debate sought the labour leader sir keir starmer challenged over hospital waiting lists among other things. with a rant out of the highlights from that debate, this is our political correspondent ian watson. the first debate of the campaign was a head—to—head clash between the prime minister and the man who wanted to replace him. if you�*re still wondering about the key messages they want to hammer home at this election, wonder no longer. this election is all about a choice — more of the chaos and division we�*ve seen for the last 14 years, or turning the page and rebuilding with labour. no—one knows what labour would actually do. but you know what i would do. i'll cut your taxes, protect your pension, and reduce immigration. last night, the party leaders faced questions not from members of parliament, but members of the public. i in the last few years, i found it. very difficult to make ends meet, and the money simply doesn't go far enough _ paula from huddersfield wanted to know what they�*d do about the cost of living. my priority has always been to do what i can to support you. that started with bold action like the furlough scheme during the pandemic, and more recently my clear plan to bring inflation back to normal. paula, ijust don�*t know how you feel when you hear a prime minister say — having heard what you�*re going through — that the plan is working, it�*s all all right. but in discussing serious issues — such as nhs waiting lists — there were still some lighter moments. waiting lists were 7.2 million, they�*re now 7.5 million, he says they�*re coming down — and this is the guy who says he�*s good at maths. yeah, they are... they are now coming down. laughter. they are now coming down. 7.2 when you said you�*d get them down — 7.2 million — they�*re now 7.5 million. i�*d like you to explain how they�*re coming down. because they were coming down from where they were when they were higher. 7.2... laughter. and they're now on their way down. laughter and applause. both men were asked if they would raise taxes to help meet the many challenges the country faces. but, repeatedly, rishi sunak asserted that labour would have to put taxes up. keir starmer is going to raise taxes. but that's just the start, because there's a long list of other things that he needs to find the money for. so it's notjust going to start and stop there. there are £2,000 worth of tax rises coming for every working family. what�*s happened here is it�*s a classic — they put in pretend labour policies to the treasury and then they get a false read—out. the new reform uk leader nigel farage says he wants to make this an immigration election — he�*ll be one of seven leading party representatives taking part in a bbc debate later this week. but last night, divisions between the main two parties in this issue were obvious. we need to smash the gangs that are running this vile trade, making a huge amount of money... applause. ..putting some of the most vulnerable people in boats across the channel. they�*re making a fortune. 0k... what are you going to do? just tell everybody. let's... what are you going to do? and rishi sunak was asked if he was prepared to leave the european convention on human rights. but if i am forced to choose between securing our borders and our country's security or a foreign court, i'm going to choose our country's security every single time. applause. if i�*m prime minister, we will not pull out of international agreements and international law which is respected the world over. applause. but the debate wasn�*t over yet. afterwards, in the crowded spin room, party representatives tried to get voters to see their leaders�* performance in the best possible light, and to cast shade on their opponents. what they cannot answer is how they will plug the £71 billion hole in their own tax and spending plans. in fact, like tory britain, the lights have just gone out — this is a metaphor for the state of the country. what has he actually said? i what has he committed to? what is he going to do? because every single i answer is looking back, is having a go, or, "well, what about liz truss?" i we're past that now — l this is about the future. if you haven�*t made up your mind who to vote for yet, well, there are more debates to come, and — oh, yes — another month of campaigning. rishi sunak 0k sir keir starmer traded blows on the nhs, the economy and the nhs in that election debate. lots of claims and counterclaims were made during the debate, and bbc verify�*s nick eardley�*s been looking into them. lots of claims in last night�*s debate — some of which stacked up more than others. the bbc�*s team of fact—checkers spent the night analysing them to put it all in a bit more context. first up, tax. here�*s a reminder of what was said. keir starmer would put all that progress at risk. he would put up everyone's taxes by £2,000. £2,000 in higher taxes for every working family in our country. he�*s the... he�*s the british expert on tax rises — they�*re at the highest level for 70 years. let�*s start with that claim taxes would go up by £2,000 for every working family under labour. that is based on a dossier from the conservative party, which claims there�*s a £38 billion black hole in labour�*s spending plans over four years. but this is important — some of the assumptions behind the calculations are from politically appointed special advisers in the treasury. some of them are questionable. it assumes, for example, that it�*s always a lot less efficient for the public sector to do things than the private sector. so, with this figure, a dollop of caution. we will know more about labour�*s tax and spend plans when they publish their manifesto, but last night, after the debate, they emphasised they weren�*t going to put up income tax, national insurance, or vat. next, let�*s look at sir keir starmer�*s claim on the overall tax level. it is right to say that taxes have gone up. this is the tax take since the last general election, compared to the size of the economy. you can see it�*s gone up quite a lot — in part because income—tax thresholds have been frozen — which means, as you earn more money in line with inflation, you pay more tax. rishi sunak has cut national insurance recently, but — as you can see from this graph here — overall, taxes are up. just to give you a flavour of what that means for people on different incomes... you are worse off if you�*re earning £15,000. if you earn 35,000 or 55,000, you�*re a bit better off. you�*re worse off if you earn £75,000. next, have a look at the exchange on the nhs — here�*s what we heard in the debate. but we are now making progress — the waiting lists are coming down. but what keir starmer... hang on. ..didn�*t mention to you... ..which you did, julie... waiting lists were 7.2 million, they�*re now 7.5 million, he says they�*re coming down — and this is the guy who says he�*s good at maths. yeah, they are... they are now coming down. laughter. they are now coming down. 7.2 when you said you�*d get them down — 7.2 million — they�*re now 7.5 million. i�*d like you to explain how they�*re coming down. because they are coming down from where they were when they were higher. 7~2~~~ _ laughter. and they�*re now on their way down. laughter and applause. they are down, right? yes, because the nhs was impacted by industrial action. 0h! groaning. and if it wasn't for that, half a million appointments would have been saved. so it�*s somebody else�*s fault. so this is the picture with waiting lists in england. you can see they go up quite significantly after the pandemic — reaching 7.8 million waits a few months ago. now, as you can also see at the end, it goes down a wee bit, but the levels are higher than when rishi sunak took over as prime minister. he says that�*s down to strikes, and it�*s true to say they had an impact. but this is where you get the claim both that waiting lists have gone up, and that they�*ve gone down a bit. finally, let�*s quickly look at small—boats crossings. rishi sunak said they were down by a third. keir starmer said they were up this year. well, actually they could both be right here. this is the picture. the number of small—boats crossings fell quite dramatically between �*22 and �*23 but, as you can see here, they are up this year so far. so, some context — all of this when it comes to making up your mind. there are a lot more fact—checks from bbc verify now on the bbc news website. that was nick ardley talking through some of the elements of that debate. back to our breaking news story, we understand a letter from the chief treasury civil servant has in the last hour or so cast doubt on the conservatives�* claims of that £2000 tax rise from labour. last night, rishi sunak said in the debate that treasury officials have costed labour�*s policies and they amount to a £2000 tax rise for every working family. claire coutinho went on the rating earlier and said that line was signed off by the chief treasury secretary but the chief treasury civil servant wrote to labour two days ago saying the assessment should not have been presented as having been produced by the civil service. claire coutinho spoke to bbc breakfast earlier saying that the £2000 tax rise figure that was used by rishi sunak against labour in that debate relates to a four year period, not a one—year one. all of the proposals have been set up by the labour party and the costings have been done by treasury officials, but when you look at the most most expensive proposals, the green plan, we�*re probably hugely underestimating the cost to families. and i thought, actually, was very telling because when kier starmer was asked about it 12 times, he couldn�*t rule it out. he didn�*t say simply, no, that�*s not the case. it took him a very long time and actually, that�*s because he knows it�*s true. well, actually, he said completely opposite and he�*s accusing you of lying. are you lying? there was 12 times he was asked and he couldn�*t rule it out. and absolutely not, these are costings that are based, as i said, on officials�* work in the treasury... i think he called it garbage. and very late in the day, i think he must have had a frantic text at some point from one of his advisers. he could not rule it out and there are multiple things like that, the £2000 of tax on working families, the fact that pensioners would be taxed for the first time next year — and we�*ve put in place a triple lock plus — he could not rule out the fact that pensioners would be taxed next year. labour�*sjonathan ashworth has also been speaking to bbc breakfast, that is a desperate lie, categorically untrue. every single policy of the labour was putting forward in this campaign is fully costed and funded. when we say we�*re going to deliver 2 million more appointments in the nhs, were going to change the non—dom tax regime to fund that. when we say we are going to recruit more teachers and invest in mental health support, we are going to levy vat on private school fees. were not going to put up income tax, national insurance or vat, sue was lying about that. £30,000 referred to a document the conservatives have said was signed off by treasury officials.— off by treasury officials. every oli off by treasury officials. every policy we _ off by treasury officials. every policy we put _ off by treasury officials. every policy we put forward - off by treasury officials. every policy we put forward in - off by treasury officials. every policy we put forward in this i policy we put forward in this campaign, like our plans to cut energy bills for good by putting a windfall tax on the gas and oil producers, that will allow us to bring energy bills down and invest in renewable energy. good, well—paid jobs like including here in the north west was topping with explain where the money will be coming from. let�*s speak to our chief political correspondent, henry zeffman. lots of questions for the conservatives to answer, least of all, are they lying?— all, are they lying? that is the line today- _ all, are they lying? that is the line today. every _ all, are they lying? that is the line today. every labour- all, are they lying? that is the line today. every labour party| line today. every labour party shadow ministerial official candidate that has been talking about this on social media or in interviews has been at accusing rishi sunak of lying. the shadow paymaster general has been talking to bbc breakfast and he said rishi sunak is no better than boris johnson, borisjohnson light over partygate, rishi sunak is lying over this. that is furiously denied by the conservative party, a spokesman saying the costings used to produce this figure came from publicly available information about the labour party�*s policies. but a couple of hours ago the conservatives will have been delighted because there is a debate about labour�*s tax policy. if in a labour say the figure was a debate. now there is a debate developing about rishi sunak�*s honesty and that is not good for the prime minister. and cricketing year was on the programme this morning saying that this whole at £2000 tax rise line was signed off by the treasury secretary, at their chief treasury civil servant. and now we see a letter that says it wasn�*t. that civil servant. and now we see a letter that says it wasn't. that is particularly _ letter that says it wasn't. that is particularly embarrassing - letter that says it wasn't. that is particularly embarrassing for - letter that says it wasn't. that is i particularly embarrassing for her because she didn�*tjust make the same attack as rishi sunak, she defended the attack by saying it had been specifically approved by a man who is the permanent secretary at the treasury, the most senior official there. this is a letter that he sent a labour politician a couple of days ago that appears to show that james bowler did not sign show thatjames bowler did not sign of the show that james bowler did not sign of the overall show thatjames bowler did not sign of the overall figure being used. that is really embarrassing for the line at the conservative party were using because the tax attack is one thing, it is nothing using a certain name in that it defends and then it turns out that person is not signed up turns out that person is not signed up to it. turns out that person is not signed u- to it. ., , ., ., turns out that person is not signed u- to it. ., ., ., , up to it. two days ago, so why did sir keir starmer _ up to it. two days ago, so why did sir keir starmer not _ up to it. two days ago, so why did sir keir starmer not have - up to it. two days ago, so why did sir keir starmer not have that - sir keir starmer not have that letter in his mind when debating last nights?— last nights? that's a really good auestion last nights? that's a really good question that — last nights? that's a really good question that others _ last nights? that's a really good question that others have - last nights? that's a really good question that others have been | question that others have been posing for. i think even before we saw this letter, there was frustration that they are parts of the labour party thought sir keir starmer was not a fleet of foot enoughin starmer was not a fleet of foot enough in response to this attack from rishi sunak. he took 25 minutes to start quibbling about some of the assumptions about the treasury and 20 minutes after that he delivered a clear rebuttal, saying this was absolute garbage. there is a question for labour�*s debate prep as to whether we should have armed him with that letter. though this figure has been doing the rounds in conservative attacks for some weeks but had not been at the heart of the campaign until last night when rishi sunak diverted almost every answer to a debate on labour�*s tax plans. i think that probably slightly confounded kier starmer and it was not what labour had prepared for. and they were making out it was £2000 a year, they never expressly said that but that was the feeling they trying to give over, and now they trying to give over, and now they are saying it is £2000 over four and. �* , four and. and even if this figure were correct. — four and. and even if this figure were correct, which _ four and. and even if this figure were correct, which is _ four and. and even if this figure were correct, which is then - four and. and even if this figure l were correct, which is then being divided by every household in the uk with at least one person in work, you wouldn�*t expect that tax burden to be distributed evenly between all those households, that is not how the tax system works. conservatives would say that is illustrative of what they say is kier starmer�*s lack of a plan. but given this intervention it, not that they meant to make this intervention publicly, but given the intervention from the treasury, i think it will be harder for rishi sunak and other conservatives to make this claim without being assailed by questions about their basic honesty. thank ou. about their basic honesty. thank you- let's _ about their basic honesty. thank you. let's talk _ about their basic honesty. thank you. let's talk about _ about their basic honesty. thank you. let's talk about what - about their basic honesty. thank you. let's talk about what this . you. let�*s talk about what this debate meant in the world of social media. this is key for any strategy within a political campaign, particularly in this day and age and particularly in this day and age and particular because all the parties want to get hold of younger vote. we will speak to laura emily dunne, who has worked with senior politicians, including theresa may�*s social media team in 2019. what goes into social media strategy within a political campaign like this?— media strategy within a political campaign like this? ahead of the election, both _ campaign like this? ahead of the election, both parties _ campaign like this? ahead of the election, both parties well- campaign like this? ahead of the election, both parties well have l election, both parties well have been crafting and refining strategy. the election it took us by surprise when it was announced as weeks ago. i think labour was straight off the starting blocks with their content. as the campaign goes a long — it is quite a long campaign at — these teams will be viewing how what they are putting out is performing are probably on an hourly basis and adapting to the messaging and the data they have in real time. it�*s interesting, the debates last night, both teams were to be looking at the messaging and how it has landed and at the changes and at this letter this morning, how that will shape the social media war in the days to come. , ., , , ., the social media war in the days to come. , .,, , ., ., ., come. this letter has blown out of the water are _ come. this letter has blown out of the water are some _ come. this letter has blown out of the water are some claims - come. this letter has blown out of the water are some claims made l come. this letter has blown out of| the water are some claims made in the water are some claims made in the media this morning and also ddt bait last night. how important is the way these things play out on social me