president is four criminal trials. look at the case tomorrow with it a job. they know jury has ever had before deciding whether or not to convict a former president united states and current candidate for the office again, of as many as 34 felonies today was the final chance for both sides to persuade them. we're talking about it tonight, joining the panel, retired new york city criminal judge george grosso, and jury consultant to alan. alan tuerkheimer. just grosso. it is great to have you with all your experience here what did you make up closing arguments night, i mean five hours two-and-a-half, three hours. >> is that it was a long day for the most part. i found it i was totally zoned in that one pretty pretty quick. i felt towards the last hour, so that mr. steinglass couldn't move to the long and i didn't know if we needed like six book excerpts more choice choice xors. >> i think less for the been a little more with some of that, but i think i think look, on the defense end i think todd blanche rule was i heard the word meandering. yeah, i certainly subscribe to that. i think he made a real legal and tactical mistake by diving into people's exhibits 35 and 36. the weisselberg notes i think they are the smoking gun evidence and i think he dove into a minefield without a plan to get to get through it. >> do you think he should not have even brought those up? >> if anything? i wouldn't he like lead with it. >> right that's not hit those documents are not his strong suit. >> and i anticipated and then i saw but steinglass just went to town. he really he got an a plus on that yet bolt documents up. you've got weisselberg's handwriting on the documents, laying out the scheme, the full hundred and $20,000 you got mcconney on a separate document number 36, with his hand fighting, parodying the same scheme and just so we have a trifecta on 35, you got cohen's handwriting tool. >> one thing that steinglass seemed to drill in on was he was making fun of todd blanche. that was kinda the tone that he tried to adopt the whole time, but he was saying this idea that todd blanche is arguing unit because these documents exist show that no crime was committed here, that no documents were falsified because you can see them. he was saying they're never be a business falsification case ever because they would just destroy them if they existed, they would say, well, it's not a crime that was something he kinda he looked to the committee and said you almost have to the jury, said you almost have to laugh but the way mr. blanche explained it to you, you've been in there every single day. you sit the same seat from people who don't know everyone else has to fight for a cv as is owed. same seat, which i'm obsessed with, but i'm wonder what you make of how that sat with the jury as they're watching this? >> what blanche then now steinglass kinda turned it around. >> oh, i think i think putting it all together. >> i think if it's a tennis match, i mean steinglass just nailed them. he put it over the net and killed it. and i think the jury, this is a smart jury. i mean, we all look at the same jury. we see the same jury. we were there for the normal tonight with f for the questioning of the jurors, these are people who want to be there. they could have just raise their hand if they didn't want to be there, they would have they would have left. they've been through the whole process today was day 21. they're clearly paying attention this two is not over their head got this allen euro, a jury consultant. >> there's a lot of talk about the length of the closing arguments. have you ever come across jurors who were so annoyed about the duration that it actually impacted their votes i don't think it impacted their votes and i think since both sides, when excessively long with their closings, i think it's probably a draw in terms of which sayyed seemed to be a little more tedious, a little more in the weeds, a little more on extraneous information that they didn't need. >> so i think each side they did. okay. they did a good job, but they miss delivering stellar closing. it's not the defense, i think did what it had to raise some questions about fraudulent and ten on the part of trump regarding the invoices surrounding the payments, but they were a little gratuitous with some cheap shots and michael cohen and a little gimmicky prosecution i think was a little more streamlined. they give a timeline laid out the elements and the actual verdict questions jurors are going to have, but the state also took a long time. so at this point it's about deliberation advocacy, and i would guess that of the 12 jurors maybe four of them are pretty firmly convinced of guilt or innocence. and then another far leaning in one direction or the other. and then for our waiting for deliberations to make make a decision judge, if if a jury can't reach a decision, if the deadlock, there's something called an allen charge that the judge can give to the what what is that? it's basically it's kinda like looking at them took an oath. i believe in you you believe in me a nice way it's not just like putting the thumbs ms john is. >> going to do it nicely. now, but but that's where you could do the allen charge. nice or you can do it rough i think what may very well get us to the verdict tea is i think my sean has a ton of goodwill with this jury, a ton of goodwill with this jury. >> i think for no other reason then that can want to disappoint has been protecting the jury and the sense of like, kind to them. we'd like to go along, but if any one of you has any issue, we won't do it. and they didn't go long one day, but i'm very couldn't do it 100%. >> so he's got a lot of goodwill and the bench press or can i sent you have the experience here? >> could you tell us what a missing witness charges because that is in the realm of possibilities. i don't think judge merchan has ruled publicly whether he's going to give him missing what is charged. but regarding weisselberg, yeah just tell them what that hey, that's a huge win for the defense. if he gives a ms here's why i don't think they're going to give it because off could you just tell us what bonus army it's gotta be a witness that's peculiarly peculiarly under the control of the people. so what that would typically mean, someone's locked up, you're the defense attorney, you can't yeah but they could get them. murray sean called that block, but but over the fence said he would take the fifth if we call them a prosecutor could give him let me answer the question. i was in the courtroom. norman was in the courtroom when that issue came up and michigan said, because it came up because i actually thought that the de i was playing a little bit of a game with the exit agreement with the 2 million that they want it to be able to get that in evidence. and then michigan said well, did you try and get them yet? he asked them that question and then steinglass was kinda hemming and harming with that a little bit. so much. sean says okay, what about we bring them in? we bring weisselberg in outside the presence of the jury and we question them. blanche, without in a heartbeat, jumped up. he's not on the witnesses list, judge. we're not ready for him. we don't ever so obvious he was he was objecting and i'm michele sun. and the way shawn does it, he looked at him and he said, oh, so this is the first time you're considering that allen weisselberg might be a witness in this case after michigan did that. and it was obvious he could have brought them in if he wanted. he not interested in bringing them in to try and say this is peculiarly under the control of the government so you get that charge or charge author that's why don't see it. >> neither. i mean, it's in that instance, neither side wanted whilst weisselberg to come in, not to mention the fact that even if we're also weisselberg were to testify, it's not clear that he would be a witness for the prosecution. that is not clear. >> the fence welcome in summation to the harp on the interstate, you don't want they don't want him to come in either. >> summation, it's too late. i'd say like with weisselberg, this said writing is exhibit 35, judge, grasses really upset about this. it's all 0s here the folks they of the bird. >> they did that with some other witnesses they made that point. right. blanche basically made that point on a number of occasions saying the prosecution they didn't bring in any lawmakers to talk about the impact of the access hollywood tape. they didn't bring in that person. they didn't bring in this person. they didn't kind of obliquely, but they did not do it for weisselberg and i thought that was extremely notable. >> the most ridiculous example of this was when the defense tasked the prosecution with not bringing again, don junior and era. it was another one. >> they were also people who sign is tired and arthur, i can tell you we're not getting amid missing witness instruction because we sat through at lengthy charging conference, it was not discussed. >> it's not in any of this submissions, not happening, maybe. holding okay. i got your request that we have an ultimate to trial groupies right here like every emotion after it's always arguing about a ligand shakespeare would do it again on sunday for hours one thing trump keeps talking about and he's complaining about tonight is that he can't use the reliance on council argument, which was something that was settled over six weeks ago when they were first making this call of saying he can't say that he was relying on legal advice of michael cohen when michael cohen told him the agreement was airtight and bulletproof, and now he is increasingly angry about that thank keeps bringing it up, even though the judge made clear during the jury instruction debate that i assume both of you were in last week? >> that was that was long gone. >> that was never even going to be an option here. >> well, it's such a bogus issue because pecker is already david pecker is already testified that he didn't provide the council with pertinent information. he just here take a look at this. none of the background information, none of the none of the things going on behind the scenes with campaign and money than not being reported. it's just like yeah, council look at an half-hour. yeah, this is good. trump knows that trump's lawyers know that, and they just wanted to try and muddy the waters with it, but it wasn't like they got it a legitimate opinion from the general count. i was general counsel for the police department for five years. you're going to ask me for an opinion submit all the relevant relevant, pertinent information. don't hold back information and then take my deputy commissioner in the grasses opinion and then hold that up is a legal opinion because it's not and that's exactly the game they're trying to pull here. >> judge, if i can if i can ask you. do you see any potential appellate issue with the way the da has charged this case for the first time in new york history. they've essentially imported a federal campaign finance violation into a state charge. >> norman and i've been talking about this ad nauseum yeah. >> shocking like why? whenever the judge because whenever you come that well, you know, i mean, it's still is i give them overall i give the de a very high marks. >> absence, six book excerpts on this summation but it's still a little tricky to figure out how the i think as far as the false five business records, i think it's almost slam dunk right now that they've got trump, pretty solid. i think that there's summation for the de a buttoned up a lot that but connecting that now, what are we connecting it to? how will we know there is a ton of evidence of testimony that this was all being done for the campaign you know, it's it's being covered up. it was covered up the way it was covered up because it was an unreported campaign contribution. but how has that been imputed to trump yet, right. and what is the actual i still have not seen the final charges to the jury. i'm going to be has a real nerd on this guy. i'm going to pick like zoning right in. i want to see where they're using willful what they're going to be using for stay the mine and whatever they use i think that this is definitely a potential point. a lot of appellate issues, a lot of cases that are overturned are overturned on the judge's charged to the jury. basically, you gave the rules of the game two the people deciding the game. inaccurately and you've been there every day. you to say if the summations prosecutors have done a great job, but it's a little willy nilly on how they're going against that. because he is a pause about whether this case should have been brought at all. well, you know what? i think i disagree with you on that. we've had this conversation on your radio show every day, every i think it was there was something rotten in denmark, there and i think there's a mountain of evidence that and i think that that the trump tower conspiracy meeting august of 2015, i think the defense summation fell really flat when they tried to say that like david pecker had not no knowledge of what cachin killed because he then used the word there. it's hundred and 30,000, 3000015000030000, judge, that hill, let me finish that. was clearly that was clear. that was clearly directed towards the campaign. i always to me going there every day, you'd have to be kinda deaf, dumb, and blind, not to let's see that a minute. >> willy nilly when i'm talking like this, i can ride a bike willy nilly. >> i'm talking about in the context of what is the charge going to look like? how is the jury going to process it, and what is it going to look like on appeal? because there is some new ground being made. his question and all you years on the bench over for a decade, did you ever have a charge that it was the first time ever you created the charge. it didn't exist anywhere else. i could give you the answer. the answer is no. >> well, i never had a guy who ran for president who thought that was a good idea to get some friends. >> a lot of money now we have we have something here that never happened before with these laws when never used the way that we used before because they were never at least from what i've seen abused the way they were abused by this particular defendant. >> now, does that ultimately lead to a bulletproof a bulletproof verdict, if they do choose to find him guilty, we'll have to see. but i think the evidence was there that bring the case. i think the evidence is there that convict but will have to ultimately see if he's convicted, what the appellate division grass we gotta go about ask you, you've looked in the eyes of lot of jurors watching the jury's i'm sure you have. what do you make of how they've been paying attention? >> paying attention i am i'm taking notes vigorously and it so i'm always into the notes, but then i just like randomly look up and scan and these people are paying attention this serious, whether you think norman as smart and dedicated and focused a jury, as i've ever seen in over 30 years, but never sitting above the courtroom wearing the robe judge grass. >> oh, wow so great to have you thank you so much as mine, tuerkheimer as well. thank you so much. appreciate it coming up next. john berman's back with more details from the trial transcript later how today's closing arguments landed with voters, specifically in georgia, people from both sides of the political the spectrum. but we talking are gary tuckman lives are special primetime coverage continues ocd is more than what you see on tv. and in the movies, it comes with unrelenting intrusive images, thoughts, and urges. if you have ocd and need help, you can get better with specialized treatment. got to know cd.com to learn more and alternative two pills, valtteri is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief jail which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source volterra and the joy of movement we're trying to save the planet with nuggets because we need the planet and we also need nuggets impossible we're setting the meat problem with more meat happens. you rip, tear and never have time to repair. wait before you throw it away. >> lead mighty minutes saved the day hi, billy mays here for mighty men did that fast, easy way to mend him. >> and what barrett again, saving you money mighty man did is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent that grabs, adheres and interlocks the fibers of virtually any fabric for a permanent repair, sewing takes forever, but with my demanded, just apply gently touch, and mended. history to withstand stan amazing easily men to him and your desk to look your best, even if you sit in split mighty men that will quickly fix it men pillows the confidence right on the bet or make furniture repairs and save money. mighty man, it dries crystal clear and is safe for most any fabrics plus its machine-washable even after 50 washes. the bond still stay strong whether it's denim, leather, or lace, you can use mighty amendment anytime any place we've been repaired, his parachute with money and it still hasn't stray. safely, bring down the guy die from 13,000 feet. now, that's the palmer of high demand. plus it's ideal for scrap looking or craft projects. you'll find hundreds of money saving uses. color go online to get the complete mighty admit it kit that includes one large bottle. >> but for everyone who orders today will triple the bottles let's give you a travel size and the money saving idea guide. absolutely free. but we're not done. we'll also include a bottle of jim it. now you can add bling to just about anything free. you get it all an incredible value for just 29, 99 ordered. now call 18005, 5975. that's one 18005, craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office... [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. preferred better science, better results. >> i'm kevin lift, ttac at the white house. and this is cnn because closing arguments when so long tonight until just before apm, we're still waiting to get the final installment of the trial transcript, but what we've got is revealing enough. >> john berman is back with more details. what are you looking at? >> so danya perry, who represented michael cohen, was on a few minutes ago and she was saying that michael cohen actually counted the number of times that todd blanche that affects 30, called him a liar so did we the number we came up with and a glickman of my producer between calling michael cohen a liar that he was lying, he lied or just lie, or perjury 78 times. 78 times. todd blanche said, this is what one of the things that blanche said directly about michael cohen he's literally like an mvp of liars. he lies constantly is lied to congress. he lied to prosecutors. he lied to his family, his business associates. he lied to his bosses. he lives to reporters. he likes to federal judges a little bit later, he said, it's like what people, when they talk about with athletes like michael jordan as the goat, tiger woods is the goat, tom brady as the goat exactly. its are the greatest of all time, the best among their peers, michael cohen is the gloat. he's literally the greatest liar of all time. and then the prosecutor, josh steinglass later said, we didn't choose michael cohen to be our witness. we didn't pick him up at the witness store. the defendant chose michael cohen to be his fixed sir, because he was willing to lie and cheat on mr