Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240702

good evening once again. i am stephanie ruhle, live from washington, d. c.. donald trump's lawyers and jack smith prosecutors squared off in a federal appeals court today over the limited gag order in a case accusing him of plotting to overthrow the 2020 election. that order stops trump from publicly attacking prosecutors, potential witnesses, or court employees involved in the case. in court this morning, jack smith's team argued that order is needed to protect the jury pool and to keep people physically safe. trump's team argued thait violates his free speech and ability to camigfor president. >> the order is unprecedented, and it is setting a terrible precedent for future restrictions oco political speech. >> as this trial approaches, the atmosphere is going to be increasingly tense. why does the district court have to wait and see, and wait for the threats to come? rather than taking an action in advance. >> his high-profile public figure who posts to lots and lots and lots of followers. he is expressing his views as the first amendment allows. >> it's the sheer number of occurrences. >> it's not the role of the government to dictate what topics are appropriate or unnecessary to discuss in the context of a political campaign. >> when the defendant engaged in repeated inflammatory there is a causal link between that person then receiving harassntthreats -- >> so, what is not fair game? comment a very critically. >> you sort of inflammatory language that poses a significant risk that they would be subject to harassment and intimidation. >> the judge has given no indication as to when they would make a decision on the gag order. also tonight, a new ruling from another federal court sparking serious backlash. that ruling says only the federal government, not individuals, can sue under a key part of the voting rights act. with that, let's get smarter with the health of our leadoff panel in d. c. tonight. hugo lowell joins me, political investigations reporter for the guardian, and professor melissa murray of nyu law school. she was a law clerk for sonia sotomayor on the federal bench before her nomination to the supreme court. and bob mcquade is here, there and prosecutor, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. hugo, i start with you because you were in the court from the audio and the reporting, i want to go through all of it. but i really need just to read for our audience again, to remind them, we are talking about the former president of the united states who is running for reelection. this is a gag order that stops trump from publicly attacking prosecutors, potential witnesses, and court employees. like, that is where we are. help us understand because both sides were very aggressive, what went down? what's in boot here? >> trump's attorneys were saying today that he had this absolute freedom to say whatever he wanted because he was in the middle of a presidential campaign. >> because running for president means you should aggressively attack a judge, a clerk, witnesses. that's normal? >> this is the complication with trump's case, right? he is using his campaign as a shield and a way to insulate himself from the extent of criminal liability that he knows it's coming down the line. and i think the circuit judges noticed that today and they pushed back pretty hard. and they were like, well, what's the point of not issuing a gag order before you have already screwed up the trial? you know, there is only a point and a gag order, to prevent that from being harm done to the jury process. and so, they rejected his argument when he was trying to say, well, you know, you should own, only sanction me, only cutback if i actually intimidate the witness. >> i just want to know why you need to threaten a judge in order to campaign to be the president, and why would that win with voters. jack smith himself was also in the courtroom today. how rare is that? >> we haven't seen him in any of the other hearings. today, it was actually pretty much the entire special counsel 's team. we actually had the lawyers from the classified documents case in the courtroom today as well, sitting right behind the government lawyers who are arguing their appeal, people like david harbach, who's on the classified documents case, as well as the other assistance, special counsel, it was the entire team, and it was very significant. >> melissa, what stuck out to you in the judges questioning of both trump's lawyers and jack smith's team? >> it seems pretty clear, stephanie, that all three judges of the d. c. circuit were trying to probe this fine balance between vindicating trump's first amendment rights, but also protecting the public. to be very clear, first amendment rights are not unfettered. you don't have a broad first amendment right to do whatever you like, or to say whatever you like. and they seem to be trying to parse the question here, like, how far could they go, what could they limit, while also preserving public safety and allowing trump the wherewithal needed in order to mount a successful or at least an effective campaign. again, that is the real question here, how to strike that balance between free speech and public safety. >> barb, the judges posed a lot of, i don't know, possibilities or hypothetical situations for the lawyers. what are they trying to get out with all these different scenarios? >> yeah, they're trying to engage in line drawing. that's what the law is all about. it's about balancing competing interests. on the one hand here, we have public safety. on the other, we have free speech, and what they refer to as core political speech. but i think one of the things they did hear a little bit is sort of take the bait from the trump lawyers who are trying to frame these first amendment rights here as if there is no criminal trial going on. they have got to frame it in a context of that and that is a very important note because gag orders are permissible in trials. it isn't the case that donald trump can't say anything he wants about jack smith. he just can't say it outside of court. if he wants to complain about a witness or a juror, he can still do that legitimately. he just can't do it on twitter or on the debate stage. and so, i am hopeful that the court will see this for what it is. and will ultimately uphold this gag order. but to the extent today they expressed discomfort, i think that's where it comes in in terms of exactly where they want to draw this line and how they're gonna define these terms, so that when there is a violation, if or when there is a violation, everyone will know it. >> hugo, how concerned were these judges about the threat of political violence, or i don't, know the repeat of january six. it almost seems crazy saying that that could happen, but here we are. >> it came out multiple times. you know, trump was trying to argue that there was no evidence in this case, where his posts has led someone to directly attack a prosecutor or a trial witness, or intimidate a potential trial witness. and the circuit court actually pulled up several instances where that actually has happened, including the judge in the trial, tanya chutkan, which a day after that trump post, he said if you go after me, i will come after you -- the very next day, that trial judge got a death threat. and they're also looking at all -- >> and team trump is saying quinky dink -- >> we are all responsible for the parties and that was the argument they made in court. >> but the person who threatened tanya chutkan, what was their connection to her. if you have known who this judge was, why wouldn't they care if she was the judge presiding over this case. >> this came up. the panel was like, what would have happened if you had posted a picture of the judge in your post? and the trump lawyers were trying to argue, well, you know, she was watching the news. she was an alcoholic. and they were reading from the indictment and what the prosecutor's mansion in those charging papers. but you can see the kind of issue that the panel had to grapple with and the arguments they are facing. >> melissa one judge spoke and it was a very funny phrase, using a careful scalpel when it comes to this order. what does that signal to you? does trump's worth of a hammer guy, no scalpel? >> i think it was patricia millett, who is one of the judges on the court. and i think, they're going to be very surgical about. this it is true that there is political speech here, but as barb says, this is taking place in the context of a criminal trial where we do have a real track record of this individual making statements that then perhaps incite other people to violence. and judge chutkan is just one of a number of different people who have been sort of caught up in this in recent years around this sort of trump world. and so, they are trying to be very surgical about this, not to cut out as much speech as perhaps the government would like. but to be very clear that some speech will have to be limited here in order to secure public safety. >> barb, does it sound like this appeals court is leading towards rewriting the gag order, and they're gonna take it back to the judge with new instructions? what's going down? >> you know, it seems to me that, you know, again, reading the tea leaves and what we heard today, they understand the need for some sort of a gag order. but that they want to make sure that the language is clear and that the definitions provide a fair notice about what is or is it prohibited. one of the things, for example, they took issue with is that trump targeted. what exactly does it mean to target a witness or to target a juror? and so, perhaps, you know, a more defined version of that, target, ridicule, scorn, harassment, maybe that's what you need to do. i think it's more likely they would remain in the district court with instructions to further define these things as opposed to try to rewrite the rules themselves. but i think they will provide some guidance about the areas they concern them. >> all this back and forth, melissa, does this have any impact on the timing of the actual trial? because as important as this stuff is, we need to know when this thing is going to happen. >> yes, these are issues that are going to come up. again, we have talked about what the trump strategy would be here for all of these criminal cases. and the strategy i think can be summed up in one word, delay. this is certainly part of the strategy. but i think we thought from the judges today that they are going to be relatively expeditious about issuing an order. i think barb is exactly right. this is a matter of professional courtesy. they are likely to demand this to judge chutkan, to tighten up her gag order and to make some of those terms more clear. but i think we are going to see repeatedly these types of challenges that are being raised, and notably, jack smith noted that some of these challenges can be immediately appealed. so they are -- that can happen right away and that those should be dealt with quickly and expeditiously so it's not to slow this down entirely by waiting for the appellate process to play out. >> barb, i was going to give you the last question, but since melissa is wearing an animal print, she wins the finale. melissa, help us with a new topic, this one new topic. this ruling, explain it to us, the voting rights act. explain what does it mean for voting rights now. i don't understand it. >> stephanie, in 2013, when the court decided, shelby versus holder, dismantling the clearance required for voting rights act, they emphasize that section two of the voting rights act remained as a vehicle for individuals to press challenges on the basis of race or other kinds of discriminatory practices including voting laws and race. now, fast forward to this particular day, we have the eighth circuit issuing a 2 to 1 ruling saying that the voting rights act, section two, cannot be implemented by private actors. it can only be prosecuted by the department of justice itself. so that means only the department of justice can bring claims alleging violations of section two from the voting rights act. most of the voting rights act challenges have been brought by private individuals over the last 50 years. and there is plenty of supreme court precedent making this clear. what these judges said today in the eighth circuit was that there is no explicit discussion of private enforcement in the voting rights act. and therefore, it is an open question. and they are getting this from justice neil gorsuch, separate concurrence in the 2021 case, democratic national committee, in which he noted that there was perhaps an open question about who could enforce section two of the voting rights act. this is surely going to go to the supreme court. there is currently a circuit split between the eighth circuit and the fifth circuit. the court is likely to take a. when they do take it up, there are two votes already to endorse this very radical, very fringe theory. justice gorsuch, justice thomas votes. and the real question will be, and there be three other votes to form a majority of five? because if there is, this is a case that will completely decimate what is left standing of the voting rights act. >> all right then, melissa murray, barb mcquade, hugo lowell, thank you all for starting us off. now, let's turn overseas for the latest on efforts to free hostages that are being held in gaza. today, families of the hostages met with israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu. tonight, we are learning more specifics about what a possible deal to release hostages could look like. my colleague from nbc raf sanchez has more. >> reporter: tonight, families of the hostages held captive in gaza, derek to hope. and so is president biden. >> mister president, is a hostage deal near? >> i believe so. but i'm not prepared to talk. >> you believe so? >> yes. >> reporter: but so far, hamas refusing to release the over 200 hostages held since october 7th terror attack, including a three-year-old american girl and a ten month old baby. sources tell nbc news a deal would involve a pause in the fighting in exchange for the hostages. though cautioning talks could still collapse. among those praying, yoni -- >> i am a father of two little girls. >> reporter: this chilling video showing his daughters, wife, and mother-in-law all being kidnapped by hamas. it's been 45 days with no word. >> are you allowing yourself to be hopeful? >> i have to. this family has no other member but me. i am the father. if i would not be their voice, nobody will. our thanks to ralph sanchez for that report. >> when we come, back we are still one year out. new polling is signaling warning signs for president biden. jen psaki and michael steele are here on that. high stakes when it comes to a possible second term for donald trump. what it would actually look like? and later, one-on-one with the only rachel maddow. she is here to explain the history of trump's dangerous rhetoric, using that word vermin, and what it actually means. it's an important discussion that you need to hear, especially for thanksgiving. you can educate your family. v 11th hour is just getting underway on a monday night in washington. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> >> he said to me, in a kind of excited tone, well, we don't care, and we're not gonna leave. he said the boss is not going to leave under any circumstances. we are just going to stay in power. and i said, well, it doesn't quite work that way, you realize? and he said he doesn't care. >> leaked testimony, former trump lawyer jenna ellis laid out the stakes for 2024 with a reminder of what happened last time donald trump was in power. the washington post is warning that voters must take the former president both seriously and literally. but we have said this before. joining me now, the one and only jen psaki, former white house press secretary and host of msnbc's inside with jen psaki. and michael steele is here, former chairman of the republican national committee, and former lieutenant governor of maryland. they are in d. c., and i'm happy they are here with me. >> we are in d. c.! >> jen, i'm gonna start with you. we've got several former trump aides saying you shouldn't be president. i want to show what cassidy hutchinson said earlier tonight. watch this. >> with donald trump, if he is elected president again in 2024, i do fear that it will be the last election where we are voting for a democracy because if he is elected again, i don't think that we will be voting under the same constitution that we would be if joe biden is elected in 2024. >> i don't need to remind you, see she said that you three hours ago. she said it, more and more people are saying it. but, a, does it matter, and, b, donald trump doesn't change, whether you are talking this trump aide, that trump aide, jenna ellis was loving on trump five weeks ago. >> yes, and that same washington post story that you referenced, they talk about how these former aides, some of them have been speaking out, they may not vote for biden. they may still vote for trump because they don't want to help the democrats. so, yes, it's good that they're speaking out against the threat he is to democracy. but what the heck! i mean, if you think he is so alarming, why are you still may be considering voting for him. >> but why are they even criticizing him? when i think about some of them, the other reason we have him, right? after january 6th, kevin mccarthy could have said we are done. mitch mcconnell could have said we are done. ronna mcdaniel could've said we are moving in another direction. she now could lose her job. kevin mccarthy lost his job. and mitch has less power than i feel like he's had in decades. they put us in this position? >> they did put us in this position and the fact that they won't let go of the things that has caused, the cancer that is eating them up alive is they can't get over that one hurdle, which is the political party hurdle. at the end of the day, they still remember they are republicans. and so, the party, for them, is still trump's country. and it is still bigger than the country. it matters more to them to vote their party than to vote for their country. so, they will say in one breath, pure major running for michigan u.s. senate, right? one of ten who voted trump, to impeach trump. he came out and said, oh my god, the worst thing after january 6th, get rid of -- what is he saying now? oh, i'm behind the guy 100%, right? because he's running for the u.s. senate in the republican primary, and at the end of the day, they can't get over that hurdle where their party matters less to them than the constitution, the country, the bill of rights. your decision, what to do with your own person had, right? all of that, it doesn't matter. party, trump, trumps it all. and until they get over that hurdle, this is the kind of language and behavior gonna see. >> and they are afraid. i mean, i think they are afraid both of the politics. but some of them, i think, are afraid of the backlash. and they are afraid of the threats. >> yes, they see the threats coming and all of that. but it's still a party thing. i talked to enough of them and i understand, they're worried about getting primary, this and that. at the end of the day, it really is i am a republican. well, i googled without a long time ago. and they should too because the reality of this at the end of the day what matters most to you, does the constitution stand for anything when donald trump says he's gonna tear it up so you can stay in power? if it does, the then you're not supporting that. if it doesn't, then you can come out and say what you are saying. >> jen, you worked for president biden. where is this narrative -- [laughter] where is this narrative coming from that he is so liberal, right? this idea that maybe joe manchin needs to step in, right? joe biden, when you look at his past, some of it on a bipartisan basis, with the exception of coal, which joe manchin is down with because he is from west virginia, there are not that dissimilar on policy. so this idea that what could biden do? what is it that people are afraid of? >> look, i think the argument from the third-party potential candidates like joe manchin doesn't exactly make sense, right? for all the reasons you just said. >> somebody knew he's been in office for decades and he is four years younger than biden. and you need somebody more centrist. they are the same. >> what is the constituency exactly? now, the challenge for biden, there's many challenges, but one of them is that even though he's done all these things that people across the country really like, like, they like that their roads were, bridges work, things like that. >> lower prescription drug costs. >> and actually it's done quite a few things that are quite progressive that the progressive base of the party should like. he still has kind of gaps of people understanding his accomplishments. so, that is, beyond joe manchin, kind of another challenge, a bigger challenge. >> is it because you don't work there anymore? >> i don't think so, steph. anyway, that is certainly -- >> to this extent, i'm gonna tell you, it is the communication, it really is the communication because when it's all said and done, and there was noted on our air over the weekend, i think it was either ali's shows or one of the shows, the governors are the ones who are talking about all this great stuff that is happening in their states -- >> and they're taking credit! >> and they are taking credit for this. there is no way communicating the success of this administration on the streets of america. >> here is where you hit something so interesting. the governors are taking credit for all these great things happening in their states. one of the reasons is because of the american rescue plan. that pumps all this money into the system. instead, they are getting that credit for the projects that the american rescue plan gave us. and biden is getting the pain because it did cause inflation to spike. so, he is getting the short end of the stick and they are getting a win. i guess they realize it because, yeah, i'm taking the money and going -- >> ultimately, one of the challenges here is that when you are the incumbent, you have a lot of advantages, you have the music, the plane, all of the things. but you are gonna be judged on how people feel, right? not what you are telling them about your record. and especially, as you know, steph, you've been covering this for a long time, on the economy, you can't tell people how they feel, right? you have to tell them what that things in their neighborhoods are doing. that's why governors are doing such a good job at this because they are being so localized about it. but for the president, it really needs to be more about, yes, you've got to get to that even playing field in some capacity, on the economy, and they're trying to do that with paid advertisements. it's not quite working yet. but they have to make it about trump, and having a better choice for the economy, for the prescription drugs, for health care, for everything. and that is where it has to get to. >> michael, for all these people saying, i don't know if joe can do it, people don't feel good about the economy. you're not wrong, right? people are gonna go to the grocery store, less expensive. if we end up, if the fed ends up of cutting rates next year, which they might, once, twice, that will be a massive win for joe biden. >> amen. >> how will other potential democrats want to jump in there not see it? because the real thing standing in the way for the economy for people, it's not unemployment, because it's low. it's not wages because they are strong. it is interest rates. and there's a decent shot they're getting that next year and biden doesn't have to do to make anything that even happen. >> that raises another a number of interesting questions on, again, for me, this whole episode goes back to communication. the administration, with that in mind, needs to start prepping, preparing, and informing, to your point, jen, about how they talk about the economy in real terms. and go to those states where those governors are patting themselves on the back for all the great infrastructure projects that -- >> you got me with this -- [laughter] [inaudible] >> and that's what they have to do. but also at the same time, to your point about what happens in the macro form of the economy, being prepared when the feds start doing their thing, and you go, i told you. this is what's gonna happen. keep rolling with me, keep rolling with me. and i think people will get it. at the end of the day, and this is something that you and i have talked back and forth on, this is the reality. with interest rates higher than they are now, with gas prices higher than they are now, and this was a year ago, did people stop going on vacation? no, they did not. you all went on vacation. you spent your money. you spent your time. you put the gas in the car. you went to see grandma. and you may have complained about it, but you did not -- you did go. that's the storyline that i think is the most important. >> we are out of time, reminder, i know you don't like the price of hamburgers in the restaurant you are going to. but you are still eating there so the owner isn't going to lower the prices. jen psaki, michael steele -- >> one-on-one. >> i do not. i can't believe how expensive it is to stop eating there. oh my gosh -- when we come back, we're gonna take a look at the history behind donald trump's vermin comment, and why this language is something you must pay attention to. the one and only rachel maddow is here, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. i got this $1,000 camera for only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. words matter. donald trump could have used any word to describe his opponents and critics. but he chose specifically to say this. >> we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country, that lie, steal, and cheat on elections. >> that wasn't an accident. he chose to call his opponents, vermin, a word with history of hate. adolf hitler used that exact word to describe the jewish people. in 1939, a cartoon appeared in an austrian newspaper, comparing jewish refugees as hordes of rats. the nazis use the same comparison in the 1940 antisemitic propaganda film that directly compared rats to jewish people. historians say this kind of language has two purposes. first, it dehumanizes people. it is easier to consider policies to marginalize a group of people when you think of them as animals. second, the words are meant to inflame people's emotions. trump's connection with his base, it is rooted in feelings that trump amplifies when he uses this very specific language. now, we are familiar with authoritarians in places like russia, north korea. but donald trump's comments remind us that through the years, americans have had to fight against it here at home. and a very good friend of mine, she just wrote an extraordinary book about that. it is called for equal, an american fight against fascism. and no surprise, it is a number one new york times bestseller. and i'm thrilled to have its author, my colleague, the one and only, rachel maddow, here with us tonight. rachel, i am so grateful that you are here. but i am grateful that you wrote this book because we need this education. you write specifically how ordinary americans had to fight against authoritarians and hate in the 1930s. there's a lot of people who don't know about this. why don't we know about it, and why do we need to now? >> well, first of all, steph, thank you so much for having me here to talk about this. i never wanted this book to be quite this topical. but it is sadly getting more topical all the time. i think the reason that the history that i write about in prequel is not better known, it it is because we look back at that world war ii era, and we think the nazis are over there, the guys over here. we went over there and defeated them, and that is a very comfortable story. the idea that hitler regarded henry ford as his inspiration, that hitler had a portrait of henry ford on his office wall in munich because he regarded henry ford as an inspiration, specifically because of his antisemitism. the fact that henry ford's antisemitic books had gone through their 29th printing in the german language by the time hitler became the chancellor of germany, that's a very uncomfortable thing about complicating that idea that they were the bad guys and we were the good guys. they got some of their worst ideas from us. and there was a lot of americans here who wanted an american form of nazi-ism here. and it is just something that has come, that we did not have to import from anywhere. we have this within us as much as any other country does. and therefore, we should learn about what other americans did to fight it, to keep those people out of power, and to keep their designs of our government, when they were really going for it in the late 30s, early 40s. >> but why there's so many of us not know about that, right? i'm gonna say it again, hitler viewed henry ford as a hero. the average american does not know that. why? >> i think because, you know, we tend to let really big events history overshadow everything else that's near them. i came across this a little bit when i did a podcast and a book about spiro agnew, who was nixon's vice president. totally forgotten figure, even though him having the justice department bring a 40 count felony criminal indictment against him is actually a very interesting precedent, given what's going on now with former president trump. it's just that it happened right before watergate. and so, when we look back on that era, we can only remember one thing. looking back at world war ii, we remember, you know, so many americans going overseas to go fight the axis powers. we sort of don't want to contend with what it meant to fight it here. but it was a really big influential movement here. i mean, henry ford, obviously, charles lindbergh, confesses national hero. charles coughlin, biggest media figure we've ever had in this country. the america first movement was the biggest voluntary political organization of its kind. there was two dozen members of congress working with a nazi agent on a nazi propaganda campaign. it was really big and really pushy and influential, which just feels like remembering the fight against that fourth now is helpful. >> then, let us just look back on trump's own life. he has been using language to dehumanize people for his entire career. do you believe now, where we are hearing him use these words, it is on purpose? >> yes. i mean, i think that donald trump is a lot of things. i don't think he is dumb. and i think that there is things that he understands, whether it is intuitively, or by reading about it, or hearing about it, about the way the authoritarian project works, the way and authoritarian leader talks. you don't just bumble in to proposing all of the same things that authoritarians all over the world are proposing. i mean, calling the press the enemy of the people. calling our internal enemies as vermin. blaming secret cabal, swamp, whatever it is, some, you know, hidden elite that the real people of the country need protecting for. every authoritarian everywhere in the world speaks the same language and proposes and promises all of these same things. and he just speaks it fluently. and i believe that it is so consistent that it can't be that he is improvising. he knows what he's doing. >> but even if his team say, you're taking it too far. this is just a coincidence. he's got steve bannon and stephen miller flanking him. that is no coincidence. this is exactly what these guys want. >> yeah. i mean, and i think what you said, stephanie in the intro, that's worth underscoring. there is a reason that they do this. it's not that it is shockingly transgressive language that gets people excited. but what they are telling you is there are people among us, right? trump in that section of that speech that you just played a clip from talked about the internal enemy being worse than any external enemy we have as a country. both the internal enemy is the dangerous thing, what does it meaning. it's two things, you want americans to think of themselves as not being among their fellow citizens, where everybody has an equal right to vote and decide on the fate of our country, which is democracy. you want people to think that there is an enemy inside the country from which they need to be protected. and that we need to put them down in some ways, and you need a strongman to do that. you can't use a democracy to do that. the other thing they want you to do is they want you to think about the need for violence against this evil thing that is so threatening to us. and that is why you talk about that enemy in non human terms, to try and bring down peoples natural inhibitions against violence. you don't, people don't think about killing, vermin, killing some sort of pestilent as some moral thing. it's something you do to protect yourself and your family. and when you talk about your political opponents at home as people who deserve that kind of treatment, you are trying to justify the worst against them. >> so, the american fight against fascism, juxtapose that against what trump is doing, you have studied this topic extensively, and you cover the current news. are you scared, rachel? >> i sort of feel like we don't have time to be scared, steph. i feel like there's a lot to do. it's hard to be a 250 year old democracy. it is hard to be a democracy. i mean, there's always people who are pushing against it. and right now, the most powerful force in conservative politics is pushing really, really hard against it. and part of the way they want us to get there is some variant of the civil war. we don't have time to worry about it if that's gonna preclude us from working against it. and time is short, and the -- rises. now is the time if you are worried about it to get involved. >> rachel, in a perfect world, in a book about fighting fascism, it shouldn't be on people's christmas list. but this year, i think we need it to be. thank you so much for being here, and congratulations on the book. >> thank you, stephanie. i really appreciate it. thank you, my friend. coming up, a new scary topic -- the brains behind open a. i. getting a boot from the company he founded. we're gonna break down all the drama and what it means for the future of artificial intelligence. we thought we were scared about a. i.. maybe, it's getting scarier. when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> (man) mm, hey, honey. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy! (man) give a little information, check a few boxes, sign my name, done. they don't ask about your health? (man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health. options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase. a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling. open a. i., pay attention to this, one of the most powerful artificial intelligence companies in the world who was thrown into absolute chaos this weekend. its founder and ceo, sam altman, who is considered like the king of the entire space, out of the blue abruptly fired from his role in the company by their board. and boom, he turns around and gets hired by microsoft. and this rock silicon valley. and the future of open a. i. is now seriously in that. i need this explain to us. you know who is here, the man who knows best. nbc's tech correspondent jake ward. jake, what the hell happened? [laughter] >> steph, we thought we were gonna have a quite weekend. i was wrapping up my friday and thought, what will happen -- boom, here comes this crazy news. you're absolutely right. this is the man of the hour, he is the face of generative a. i.. it is his company that put chatgpt and a. i. in our laps. and frankly, stephanie, you know this guy is as connected as anybody. he is connected directly to some of the biggest companies across silicon valley. he's a networking guy. and even on thursday night, the night before this happened, he was speaking to world leaders at apec. he was on podcasts. there was no sign that he had any since this was coming. and, boom, known afternoon on friday, he gets fired by the board and they send this sort of vague thing about how he had not been clear and candid in his communications with them. they said they had lost confidence in him and they said it had something to do the purpose of openai which has to do with creating the best, safest, most helpful form of a. i. for humanity. but we really have no idea why they fired him. and then over the weekend, incredible turnover. the interior of that company is thrown into chaos, as more than 650 employees that's -- a company that only has about 750 employees -- they all signed a letter saying you have to resign. speaking to the board who fired him, you have to resign or we will leave. and then midnight last night, suddenly, he's got this job offer from microsoft. and he is just gonna split and go work for satya nadella. it is the craziest turn of events for a company that was literally leading the space, and had put a. i. on our laps, taught us what it is. absolutely insane! >> why are we just accepting that it is vague why they pushed him out, right? nobody understands a. i., the dangers of it, the powers of it, more than this guy, right? the board was a nonprofit. he is a clearly capitalist focused dude. and over the weekend, he's connected to all sorts of people in business, media, and technology. everything is coming to this guy's aid, more focused on him, and now he gets a big job at microsoft. and we have forgotten why that heck did he get fired again, what is the actual answer that we are looking for? >> steph, you are absolutely right. and it's what all of us have been digging for. everyone on the planet right now is trying to find out -- the problem is no one knows except basically three board members. the ceo of quora, a longtime venture capitalist, and georgetown academic. those three people who form the core of this academic board essentially, that runs this nonprofit. they are not even shareholders and the company. they are not about responsibility, making money. they are just about overseeing the weird nonprofit that is open a. i.. they are the only ones who know why, presumably, sam and greg brockman who left, also president of the company, they know too, but no one is talking. so there's a tiny little circle of people who know -- but that letter from the interior of the company, the 600 plus signatures on that letter, they say show us hard evidence. even they evidently have been shown that. but that's what i want to hear. i want to hear from this board, what was the specific concern? we know this much, right? microsoft doesn't seem to care about it, at least not enough to slow them down in any weight. so, what was it originally? there was gonna be all this talk about the implications that come out of this. fundamentally, that is a real important question. considering it's a guy whose technology is going to affect millions, maybe even billions of people, i think we all have the right to know just what they were concerned about, as they pulled one of the biggest, we are just, craziest tech moves we've seen in the last few years, steph. >> if you thought you were kind of uncomfortable, a little scared, a little confused about a. i., it only got worse this weekend. it makes you wonder, what is going on in san francisco. jake ward, i have zillion more questions. sadly, this show is almost over. we're gonna leave it there. when we come back, she was more than a first lady. rosalynn carter's humanitarian efforts carried on long after she left the white house. a look at the legacy, that this extraordinary woman left behind, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ i really can't make speeches of habitat because i get so choked up. i look and see the homeowners, and i see all the wonderful volunteers who are just working to do something good for somebody who needs help. so i thank you. >> the last thing before we go tonight, rosalynn carter's legacy. the world is still mourning the death of the former first lady who passed away on sunday at the age of 96. in a statement, besides being a loving mother and extraordinary first lady, my mother was a great humanitarian in her own right. her life of service and compassion was an example for all americans. as first lady, she advocated for greater access to mental health care and resources for caregiving. after leaving office, the carters found the carter center, a nonprofit human rights organization. jimmy carter, jonathan alter, writing that that traveled the globe together waging peace, as they put it, supervising elections, starting impressive global health initiatives and building houses for the poor. on the road, mrs. carter served as a notetaker and important peace talks. at home, she established fellowships for journalists covering mental health issues, and founded the rosalynn carter institute for caregivers. our own andrea mitchell has more on her advocacy for mental health care. please watch this. >> reporter: her advocacy began when people approached her on the campaign trail to confide their struggles with mental health. >> i was able to see some of the things going on in the country, see some of the needs, see some good things too, but some may needs. >> reporter: she served in georgia's metal commission on mental health, and then a presidential one, both fighting the stigma surrounding mental health treatment when it was still in the shadows, especially in politics. >> i can't imagine that we would have made progress that we have made, both in the legislature, in the court of public opinion, and even in financing, if it were not for mrs. carter. >> reporter: in 1979, mrs. carter became the second first lady to ever testified before congress, pushing for mental health legislation. >> i have learned the challenge that it is, and the complexities involved with providing care for those who are mentally affected. >> reporter: helping generations of americans get the care they need. >> my mental health work, i want that to carry on, even after there is no more stigma. >> reporter: tonight, that legacy continues. andrea mitchell, nbc news, washington. >> rosalynn carter's legacy is one of service to others, let her hardworking be a reminder tonight that if you need help, please ask for it. and if you can give help, please give it. and on that note, i wish you all a very good, very safe and healthy night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪

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