to rush off the house floor where george santos just spoke, just spoke in his own defense against the expulsion resolution introduced by dan goldman. now there has been a second. he has had two expulsion resolutions introduced against him on the same day, today, and he set a record, once again, today. >> he has been setting records, not for expulsion votes but for other things, and i'm eager to hear this discussion, lawrence. i'm eager to know whether george santos mentioned his storied volleyball career. >> i'll save it for later in the show. and alex, by the time you get home, you'll be able to turn on your tv and see me do something i have not done on tv in many years. >> are we finally get to see you juggle? >> i'm gonna walk. i haven't gotten out of this desk in many years. we used to have a giant studio on the other side of the hall. >> i remember. >> and there used to be a certain amount of walking and demonstrating things on the giant board. we do have another section of the studio that allows for me to take a little stroll. >> i'm excited to see the walk. that might be the most exciting part of the show. >> walking on tv, and i haven't rehearsed it, so who knows? >> see, lawrence o'donnell walk, and that's all the tease you need. >> that'll do it. thanks, alex. liz cheney has unique information that could be of interest to special prosecutor jack smith, according to a report about her new book, titled, oath and honor, which will be published next week and which the author will discuss monday night at nine pm in liz cheney's very first interview with rachel maddow, right here on msnbc. cnn has obtained a copy of the book and an excerpt saying that donald trump knew that he lost the presidential election two days after the presidential election. liz cheney reveals this information in the conversation she had at the time with kevin mccarthy. he knows it's over, mccarthy said, according to the book. he needs to go through all the stages of grief. that makes kevin mccarthy a witness who can testify to donald trump's true state of mind about the election. he knows it's over. mccarthy told liz cheney, two days after the presidential election in 2020. last night on trump's lawyers filed a massive discovery request in the case of united states of america versus donald j trump, in which donald trump is accused of crimes leading up to and on january 6th in his attempt to overturn that election. in their filing, the criminal defense lawyers say that prosecutors, quote, cannot blame president trump for public discord and distrust of the 2020 election results. trump's defense lawyers insist that it was perfectly reasonable for donald trump to believe that there was election fraud, no matter how many times he was told by his own attorney general and white house lawyers that there was no election fraud. and now comes kevin mccarthy saying he knows it's over. two days after the presidential election. the trump criminal defense lawyers request for discovery demands, they are demanding documents from all over the federal government, one of the many claims for discovery that the trump lawyers make is, quote, president trump is entitled to all information regarding undercover agents acting at the direction of under the direction of official authorities because it suggests that there were adequate controls in place and that the violence at issue resulted from a failure of those controls and or failed sting operations rather than any direct directions from president president trump. among the many problems for the trump lawyers in that point is that it ignores the fact that once the attack was underway, there were absolutely no directions from donald trump to any of the governmental forces under his command to stop the attack on the capitol. not one word in any of the trump lawyers'voluminous pleadings in this case has ever attempted to explain why donald trump did absolutely nothing to stop the attack on the capitol that he watched on tv and why it was vice president pence who simply took over the role of commander-in-chief from his hiding place in the capitol to communicate with congressional leaders about the attack, and defense department officials about how to regain control of the capitol building. donald trump completely surrendered the presidency, and that inaction by donald trump that liz cheney calls dereliction of duty during the attack on the capitol, is part of the criminal charges against donald trump by jack smith in this case. the trump discovery request also asked for information about mike pence that appears completely irrelevant to the attack on the capitol on january 6th and trump's attempt to get mike pence to violate the law on january six. those attempts are described by jack smith in the indictment against donald trump. the trump discovery request asks for, quote, evidence relating to unauthorized retention of classified documents by vice president mike pence. the potential criminal charges faced by vice president pence gave him an incentive to curry favor with authorities by providing information that is consistent with the biden administration's preferred and false narrative regarding this case. jack smith's team has until december 11th to respond to that trump discovery request. judge chutkan, ruling in this case already, has found that donald trump's latest discovery request was, quote, a fishing expedition, and she denied his request. don trump's criminal defense lawyers'fear of mike pence's as a potential witness has been fueled by new reporting of what mike pence actually told special prosecutor jack smith's prosecution team earlier this year. abc news is reporting, quote, in his interviews with smith's team, pence recalled the meeting he had alone with trump inside the oval office on december 21st, 2020, when trump privately asked pence what they should do, pence said, he told the then president that if nothing changed, you should simply accept the results, you should take a bow, travel the country to thank supporters, and then run again if you want. and i'll never forget, he pointed at me as if to say, that's worth thinking about. and he walked away. pence recalled to investigators, sources said. nbc news is also reporting that mike pence's notes turned over to prosecutors revealed these lines from christmas eve, 2020. not feeling like i should attend electoral count, pence wrote in his notes in late december. too many questions, too many doubts, too hurtful to my friend. therefore i'm not going to participate in certification of election. then, sitting across the table from his son, a marine, while on vacation in colorado, his son said to him, dad, you took the same oath i took, it was an oath to support and defend the constitution, pence recalled to smith's investigators, sources say. that's when pence decided he would be at the capitol on january six after all. according to the sources. leading off our discussion tonight is neal katyal, former acting u.s. solicitor general, and professor of georgetown law, msnbc legal analyst and host of the podcast courtside. also harry litman, former deputy assistant attorney general, senior legal affairs analyst for the los angeles times. and neal, let me begin with this massive discovery request that the trump criminal defense team has filed with the same judge who ruled their last discovery request a fishing expedition and didn't allow it. this one seems like a fishing expedition with a much bigger net. >> yeah, so lawrence, as usual, trump's latest motion is not worth the paper it's printed on or the fees that you have to get to download it online. when he ran the justice department justice department was known for hiding such information from criminal defendants. and now he wants everything that suits him. this is nothing more than a delay tactic. trump is asking for the kitchen sink at a time when he already has troughs of sinks, basically. the trial judge, judge chutkan, very experienced, respected by everyone on both sides of the aisle in washington, she's not gonna have anything to do with this, i suspect. she's going to limit this. the government already has an incentive to turn over as much information as possible, so i don't see this as doing anything whatsoever to try and delay, to actually succeed in delaying the trial. one other thing about this that i found striking, you put it on the screen, but donald trump is blaming pants in this filing and basically saying his vice president, trying to curry favor with the justice department because he's under investigation for stealing documents. but trump knows a lot about such investigations because he's facing a really serious one in mar-a-lago where, i, think experts of all sides agree trump's looking at a serious set of federal felonies. but the pence investigation is nothing like that. this does play a little bit to the need for a gag order here. this is someone who is going and attacking potential witnesses, particularly, as you noted, on the day that abc news was reporting dramatic words from the vice president. >> harry litman, what defines what the defense is allowed to ask for and obtain in evidentiary situations like this? and how much delay do you think this kind of motion could cause? >> the legal hook is the obligation. it's a real one. there is a hook in this fishing expedition. there's just no fish below. you must give over any information that might tend to exculpate a defendant even might tend to impeach witnesses. this is, as neal said, it scattershot, it malicious, and it's very well planned. he was once for a few months under investigation which is closed up and he wanted to curry favor, therefore, it goes the argument, it goes to show that i'm innocent. likewise with the private investigators that you mentioned. so he takes an actual principle and uses it to leverage all kinds of insults to and charges of politicization and very speculative hooks to it, and i think as neal says chutkan will make short work of this and say this isn't the type of stuff that the government has to produce. this is just you on a fantasy mission? >> neal, can the defense appeal a discovery motion like thisin a ruling by the judge? >> no. not really. it's an interlocutory appeal that would have to be certified and get very special standards. it's not gonna happen here. the judge here has massive discretion to rule the evidence the way she wants and to an extent on trump has a complaint, if he is convicted, as i suspect he will be, he can appeal and make that part of his complaint that judge chutkan didn't let him see some particular piece of evidence or not. good luck with that appeal. >> i want to get both of your reactions to this new information from liz cheney's book that kevin mccarthy is saying two days after the election he knows that he lost. we're gonna squeeze in a commercial break right now and be right back with neal katyal and harry litman. >> where 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significant. it's not surprising. basically the prosecution has to show a bad actus reyes, a bad act in a mens rhea, bad criminal intent. donald trump have a having a fake electors plot, trying to interfere with pence going to the hill on january six to count votes. the mens rhea has always been the part of the case that's a little bit harder, not that hard, frankly, but a little bit harder. trump has said i really thought i won, and the like, but we've had witness after witness, cassidy hutchison and others who said, no, trump knew, trump told people that he lost and the like. this is further evidence like that. i do think there are ways to get it in. as a prosecutor, there are 23 different exceptions to the hearsay rules and so i do think it could come in. but at the end of the day this is not a game-changer. people know that donald trump lost. he's not claiming insanity. he could have tried to pull off some sort of defense out of this kind of argument. >> harry litman, i suppose we can expect the trump attacks on liz cheney any minute now, possibly during this program. >> right, exactly. but on the evidence, lawrence, it's super straightforward. the code defines an admission by donald trump, anything he says as non hearsay. so even before you get to the 23 exceptions, this isn't hearsay. it is hearsay fillers cheney to say kevin mccarthy told me. it's not hearsay for mccarthy. you give him a trial subpoena and mr. mccarthy, what did donald trump tell you? and there's no hearsay protection there. and of course they will rail against anybody, including mccarthy, but admissibility straightforward. >> but neal there's a risk there for prosecutors who can't have real access to mccarthy ahead of time. he could get on the witness stand and say i don't remember, i don't recall, i had a conversation, that never came up. >> yeah, absolutely, it is at that point that maybe you call mccarthy -- and the other 23 exceptions. there's a way to get this evidence in but again i don't think the case is gonna hinge on that, one way or the other. in georgia there's a report today in the guardian saying that prosecutors are willing to enter plea agreements with every defendant in the case except donald trump, mark meadows, and rudolph giuliani. harry litman, the guardian's report said that that's the current strategy, as the reporting indicates, in the d. a.'s office that strategy could change. but what do you make of that strategy, if true? >> these are the kinds of lines that prosecutors draw. it's bad news for meadows and giuliani, who really is broke and now doesn't appear to have the option of doing anything. he can always plead but he can't get any kind of break. one thing i would add to the guardian report is, david schaffer, there basically two cases here, lawrence. remember, she's an elected official from georgia. she has people from washington who came down and tried to browbeat people in georgia. also people in georgia, political officials, and david schaffer, former head of the republican party, he's the most culpable there. i wouldn't be surprised to see a flurry of pleas. but stopping at him and making him be in a similar position as giuliani, meadows, and trump. it's a four to maybe six person case at this point, i think, once the pleas come in, which will require a setting of a trial date. this could be an important hearing on friday, and we'll see where judge mcafee is going with the actual scheduling here. remember, that's what triggered the other pleas before, and i think they need to feel the heat before they start having more guilty pleas. >> neal what do you make of that current strategy, if it's true, the d. a.'s office say no possible plea agreements offered to trump, giuliani, meadows, but everyone else is willing is welcome to come in a negotiated. >> it makes sense, but they need to take with a grain of salt. the case against trump is very strong. but if you're a prosecutor and you have mark meadows willing to testify against him, and mark meadows isn't tainted by the same four seasons landscaping nonsense that rudy giuliani's, so as a result, you might, in the end of the day say i really don't like the idea of basically keeping the chief of staff to the president a pardon when he did so many things. but there is a bigger fish to fry here, and i don't think that fani willis has made that calculation yet. she may have some preliminary views on that. but views can change overtime. i think the book has yet to be written on that particular decision. rudy giuliani strikes me as an easier case because as a prosecutor i'd be surprised if that's really going to help the case tremendously, given his credibility issues. >> neal katyal and harry litman, thank you very much. coming up, it in breaking george santos news, congressman santos went to the house floor to defend himself against expulsion. congressman dan goldman who introduced a resolution today to expel george santos will join us next. >>and 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