michael steele. donald trump railing against his guilty verdict with misinformation and outright lies. his supporters call for violence and online posts. the new developments you may have missed in the ex- president's other legal cases. president biden's campaign stepping out outreach to black voters a crucial swing states. the principal deputy campaign manager is here. we will speak with former capitol police officer harry dunn about his role supporting the campaign. grab your coffee and tea of settled in and welcome to the weekend. just this morning, donald trump appearing on fox for pretaped interview where he unleashed a new tirade of lies as he awaits sentencing a 34 billing accounts. the friendly hosted no problem amplifying those lies. here is just a snapshot of how the leader of the republican party defended himself while attacking both democrats and the justice system. >> these people are sick. they are sick. they are deranged. i talk about the enemy, the afc down the enemy from within, but the enemy from within are doing damage to this country. that's all coming out of washington. you may think it's break take a look at who open the case. >> joining us is ruth ben-ghiat professor of history at nyu and author of strongmen. sheep publishes a newsletter on sub stick. residential historian michael and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. good morning, all. >> good morning. i just want to start with you. i think it's important coming off of this trial for you, if you could, give us some historical context in terms of the rhetoric that trump is now pumping out which is elevated in more animated around, not just the system being rigged, but as we noted in the lead-in, his supporters advocating online by reinforcing this idea that it is rigged with violence. what does this mean and how close is this to the authoritarian playbook being played out before our eyes? >> yeah, we are seeing obviously dangerous chapter that playbook. donald trump has, in a way, always run on the idea of violence as glamorous as violence which is a fascist idea that violence is a way to change history, not elections. there was a reuters articles saying one of his supporters in a chat room says it's time to kneecap some lefties. voting is not going to fix this. what fixes things as violence. when a leader is in distress, his supporters, if they have bonded to him and he has -- like trump does, they can be very volatile and they can be easily manipulated. that is what trump knows how to do. he has always done this. those, panic, late into the night posts to them saying he is a political prisoner, i am your redemption. i am your retribution and then something happens to him, so then they're going to be existentially threatened. this makes for a very unsettling and volatile environment politically as well. >> along those lines, he also says, and i want to be clear, donald trump is a ruling interview he is having on another network right now that was pretaped. i want to play what he said about the public and him going to jail. i think it makes your point clearly, ruth. >> i don't know that the public would stand up. i'm not sure the public would stand for it. i think it would be tough for the public to take. at a certain point there is a breaking point. >> he goes on to say at a certain point there is a breaking point. we have never seen something like this before in the united states, right, michael, from a former u.s. president. even richard nixon did not go this far. >> not a bit. did you see eisenhower to do something like this? let's have domestic terrorism to resolve who's going to be the next president. just as ruth said, this is a threat that goes through donald trump back to the early rallies of late 2015. remember when he used to say, and this was novel at the time and it has become old hat with him. look at those reporters in the hall. mainstream press are bad people. the audience would boo and some were worried that there would be violence by some in the hall against reporters and other journalists who were trying to report on what was going on. that went back to george wallace. george wallace is not a major party candidate, but he ran as a third-party candidate in 1968 on a racist platform of at least latent violence and promise of violence. he used to say, for instance, if a college protester lies down and protest in front of my car, that will be the last car he ever lies down in front of. watching all of that was donald trump in queens in 1968. trump was a nixon supporter. nixon's approach in 1968 was to say the country is in chaos. there are riots in the cities. you can't walk safely in new york or washington. in the world, the world is in chaos. the united states cannot cope with vietnam or north korea or other second-rate powers who are challenging our supremacy. trump and especially the people around him are and what about that. they would love to get to october and riots in the cities and chaos in the world so you get an independent voter, let's say, outside philadelphia or outside detroit saying, i loathe the donald trump. i hate he is a convicted felon. i hate the way he treats women, but i cannot stand this insecurity anymore and maybe we need a little bit of forest to settle dashboards to settle things down. i guarantee he will do everything to bring it about. >> those talking points are also coming from his supporters. one thing is this idea that it could've been brought seven years ago. >> that is a ridiculous notion. one, donald trump was president between january 2017 and january 2021. the office that just prosecuted him is the same office that took its efforts just to get information from donald trump to the supreme court and back twice. by the time that alvin bragg took office, donald trump had only been gone from the presidency for a matter of months. then, he did what any responsible elected district attorney would do which is, i'm not just going to take the word of the people who have been here before, shepherding this investigation, but i will assure myself that if we bring a prosecution against the former president, the first ever, is going to be as bulletproof as it can be. that is what they did. the notion they could've brought the seven years ago, these are old, old claims that were recycling things almost a decade old, yes, the facts are almost a decade old, but that's forgetting all the intervening period of time in which either a manhattan prosecutor could not or was blocked from doing more because of donald trump's own actions. >> ruth, i want to do the counterbalance. we have this raising up above authoritarianism and, you know, dictatorship as donald trump defines it. you have joe biden come back with a statement which i would like to play. i want to ask a question on the other side of it. >> the american principle that no one is above the law was reaffirmed. donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself. it was a state case and not a federal case. it was heard by it jury of 12 citizens. 12 americans. 12 people like you. millions of americans who served on juries, this jury is chosen the same way every jury in america is chosen. >> a little bit of the addressing what lisa said in terms of how this thing came together, what type of case it was. how effective most the countermeasure, the counter narrative be in the next five months leading up to the selection? in order to dilute or persuade -- i'm trying to find the right words to express -- >> wake the people up. >> what we as citizens need to do or make sure our neighbors and our friends who are not maga may be somewhat adjacent to trumpism but not all land don't get sucked in in this country can survive at the ballot box in november? >> yeah, i think biden was on the right path. there is a moving thing about this trial because -- the idea that no one is above the law is affirming a respect for the individual no matter who somebody is and with their circumstances where they come from, they can have a fair and free trial in america. that is above any party. there is a chance he with messaging to get beyond partisanship and it's about democracy. the same with these jurors who were 12 ordinary people who decided to do their civic duty knowing this might be dangerous during and after. there are reports of them being threatened and text. it goes beyond any party. it is service to the nation. service to democracy. now is the time for us as americans to have conversations along those lines with our neighbors, family, people independent voters and even try with people in the maga because this is an existential moment for our nation. you can say, is this what you really want? do you really want political violence and retribution? having studied fascism and other authoritarian regimes and donald trump making promises of war on americans, this is a way to go. >> ruth and michael. stick around. we have more we want to talk about because we want to get into other aspects of this conversation after a quick break. be sure to follow our show on social media. our handle everywhere is wow six times may change, but somethings remain timeless. i've been using dove beauty bar more than 25 years. dove is 1/4 moisturizing cream. ♪♪ i feel silky smooth. ♪♪ sfx: [screams] [crowd gasps] bleeding gums are serious, jamie... dr. garcia? whoa! they're a sign of bacterial infection. crest gum detoxify's antibacterial fluoride works below the gumline to help heal gums and stop bleeding. crest saves the day! crest. at bombas, we're obsessed with socks. tees. and underwear. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. (dog bark) it's simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do. ruth ben-ghiat, michael beschloss, lisa rubin are back with us. what ruth was saying made me think about the fact that i think a lot of americans out here really believe that donald trump won't be able to go as rogue as he is saying. he will not be able to be a dictator on day one throughout his presidency because there are guardrails to stop him. i am most concerned about the fact that there are no guardrails. there are no guardrails for donald trump. ruth ben-ghiat -- michael beschloss, under this current congress will not be a guard rail let alone republicans of congress. that she does speaker of the house was one of the cheerleaders of the stop the steal movement. the supreme court is not going to be a guard rail. we are still waiting for the immunity decision. the guardrails do not exist. who the president is matters and staff will be a guard rail because donald trump will not hire people that will try to hold him accountable like the generals of his last administration. >> take everything donald trump says extremely seriously. you are absolutely right. justices on the supreme court, we have seen it in the last month, are complicit. they are dragging their feet on presidential immunity on this case so this january 6 case cannot go forward before the election. that's not the only motive, but everything we know suggests a majority of the justices are perfectly fine with that. that's a big flashing red light. if donald trump comes into the presidency and controls congress, you have seen the way leading republicans have reacted to this verdict. they are mimicking what he says. the verdict as part of a legal system and rule of law that is rotten and should be thrown out. you have a presidency, presidents have too much power. they run the department of justice. they run the defense department, fbi, bureau of prisons. if you have a president who wants to be a dictator, the founders and the constitution did not protect us. what is going to stop the? impeachment? how has it worked. he was impeached twice and it was like a snowflake falling on the potomac. all i am saying is if donald trump is selected, you have to assume he is going to go through with his promise to be a dictator not for a day but perhaps the rest of our lifetimes. at the same time, wreck the rule of law that expands our pets and ensures people do not commit murder and arson and ensures investors want to invest in united states economy because it is stable. you have essentially a dictator was promising to wreck the system of laws with the complicity of certain people on the supreme court, certain people in congress, and so you have something we have never seen in american history, the promise of dictatorship and anarchy at the same time. is that what americans want in november? i don't think. >> symone is asking about guardrails and i think it's a right question to be asking give and what he is doing is setting up a future framework. in real time, think one of the guardrails is fact-checking all the things he is saying. you have already fact checked the idea from him and other republicans that this should've been brought seven years ago, but that's not the only lie that is embedded in his rhetoric. >> there are so many it's hard to know where to start. one of the biggest lies is the gag order precluded him from testifying. let's break that apart for a second. the gag order as judge merchan told him patiently, only applies to extrajudicial statements meaning things you say out-of-court. to the extent donald trump feel some ruling of judge merchan made it impossible for him to testify, it was because next a provides for a visiting call the sandoval hearing. before defendant makes a decision about whether to testify, they are entitled to know what the current scope of the cross examination will be. during that hearing, judge merchan did not give the prosecutors everything that they wanted. in fact, he made it clear they were not allowed to ask him about other accusations of sexual misconduct but they were a lot, if you were to testify, to ask him about other prior rulings that have come down against him including the two e. jean carroll rulings. the civil fraud ruling in the settlement about trump university. those were fair game because they bear on his credibility and they bear on his honesty with the jury. if donald trump wants to get out there now and say that precluded him from testifying, that was his decision and his decision alone. he was in no way blocked from taking the witness stand and the defense that his side put onto only put in two witnesses, one who was bob costello who had his own real problems on the stand. that too was their decision. they never called people who would've given an account, theoretically, partial to donald trump. his bodyguard are allen weisselberg, they could've called him despite the fact he is serving a term in rikers right now. for all those reasons, donald trump needs to be fact checked on that and as other characterizations of what happened in the courtroom that i sat in for all 22 days of the trial. when his allies go out and say it was a trial that is rick, i find that funny in part because j.d. vance who should've for a morning or afternoon, sat with their heads on their phones the entire time. it's not clear what they took away from attending the trial other than performative lead to say they were there and go outside to speak to the cameras. the people who saw the trial day in and day out, 100 plus members of the press corps have a different take on what went on within the courtroom. those of us who were there should continue to bear witness and speak truth to his power. >> and speaking truth to power, this relates back to what symone raised about guardrails and the guardrail part of this is extremely important. the problem is the guardrails have been weekend. i give you mitt romney. mitt romney in an interview with the atlantic. alvin bragg should've settled the case against trump, as would've been the normal procedure. you can talk to lisa about that. it would not have been. but he made a political decision. alvin bragg may have won the battle for now but he may have lost the political war. democrats think they can put out the term fire with oxygen. its political malpractice. for me, the political malpractice are statements like this. first off, goes against the logic of how the case unfolds and lisa touched on some with the defendant and prosecutors can do. but the bigger picture is the guardrails that's put in place by those who know better or should know better. who will stand in the defense of liberty instead of capitulating to authoritarianism. how dangerous is that piece as we talk about all these other aspects of this, if we are continually weakened by current leaders who do not have you know what to stand up to someone like trump as they said in 2016, now having lived eight years of this, i would think they would be more inclined to do it but they are more inclined to capitulate. >> this is a cyst -- symptom of what i call the moral collapse of republicans and what we see from mitt romney as it has extended to blunt the edges of even people who are not maga. it shows -- it's happened other times and places, years of this has weakened people. they have moved so far to the right, even if they are not maga, they are not old-fashioned conservatives. old-fashioned conservatives don't back used overthrow the government. they do not want anarchy like michael was saying before. the other points to this is maga has been waging a parallel information warfare to legal warfare. they are battling in the courtroom and trump has thousands of lawsuits for many years, that's how he operates way before he was president. there is information warfare. the reason those clones shut up with the red ties, it's very fascist, they have to remake themselves in the image of the leader and physically as well. that is very scary. that also shows you how far we have fallen and how these things happened over time. the purpose of coming was to show loyalty to trump, but the real purpose, that's why vance was there tweeting, is to disseminate the propaganda talking points. the gop is an autocratic entity and has a partyline. you see how these responses about the trial and the verdict have been very coordinated, and that is something that is also a huge success of trump's and a huge liability for our democracy. >> all right, ruth ben-ghiat, michael beschloss, lisa rubin, thank you for starting the morning. as president biden lays out a path to a cease-fire in gaza, benjamin netanyahu confirms the deal. but, there is a catch. congressman eric swalwell in the indefensible defense of donald trump. you are 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