hi, everyone, we made it to friday. it's 4:00 in new york. the very first person to earn the dubious of being first -- of the republican party is at this very moment playing a game of chicken with the rule of law with practically every prominent member of the gop either silenced or acting at his henchman, the ex-president is talking like a mob boss, amping up his threats of retaliation against his perceived political opponents and enemies in the wake of his conviction on 34 felony counts for concealing a scheme to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. over the course of a single day, trump openly mused about revenge, not once, not twice, but three times. even when he was practically begged to back off the threats by friendly interviewers. watch. >> i think you have so much to do, you don't have time to get even. you only have time to get right. >> well, revenge does take time, i will say that. >> it does. >> and sometimes revenge can be justified, but sometimes it can't -- >> but is the country better or worse for them going after you? >> i think the country is really worse for what they've done. >> people are claiming you want retribution. people are claiming you want what has happened to you done to democrats. would you do that, ever? >> look, what's happened to me has never happened in this country before. and it has to stop because -- >> wait a minute. i want to hear that again. it has to stop. >> it has to stop. >> when you ask me the question, would we do it? i'll talk to you in about three years from now. >> nice try, guys. the complete and upper lack of remorse trump is showing in the wake of his guilty conviction, guilty verdict is likely to actually be a factor for him legally in the next chapter of convicted felon donald trump's journey through the criminal justice system. reporting in "the new york times" that lays out the challenge for manhattan d.a. alvin bragg as he contemplates his sentencing recommendation for the ex-president. trump was convicted of class e felony, the lowest level in the state and could be sentenced to probation or up to four years in prison. alternately what is known as split sentence is possible with a relatively brief amount of time spent in the city jail in advance of a probationary determination. expected to be a factor in trump's sentencing, quote, the fact that michael cohen, one of the exto he can tors. he pointed out that trump's three pending indictments, his lack of demonstrative remorse, which was given considerable decision during sentencing decisions and the several times he was held in contempt during his trial. quote, you can criticize the d.a. for asking for jail time as politically motivated. that was former manhattan prosecutor duncan levin, quote, but it doesn't mean trump doesn't deserve it. convicted felon donald trump promising to bend the criminal system to his will. that's where we begin with our favorite reporters and friends. david kelley is back with us and normer top prosecutor, doj, msnbc analyst, andrew weissmann and the president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton. david kelley, how do you see this? >> well, you know, it's really kind of shocking to me. i was struggling to have come to mind anybody who would carry out any such orders if they were made. as andrew knows having been a prosecutor, as did i, you have the luxury of essentially putting blinders on and doing what's right because it's right. not because of any politics, not because somebody told you to do something. and you take an oath. like any other high government official, you take an oath. unlike any other high government officials, that's an official you bring to life and live each and every day. it's not something you just mouth every four years or whenever it is you get reinaugurated. i think that any real prosecutor in any position in a trump administration who received that sort of order couldn't live with themselves if they're a real prosecutor, if they actually tried to carry out those orders, but it's hard to fathom who would do that, but i wouldn't leave it to chance that he'll find somebody to do that. >> david, what is the right sentencing recommendation on alvin bragg's part and what is the right sentencing judgment on judgment marshon's part? >> that's a tough question and it's going to take a lot of judgment from both of them. but i think one of the commentators you mentioned at the outset hit the nail on the head. i think that he has an awful lot going against him. he has a lot of factors here that i think would give any defense lawyer and, frankly, any defendant a lot of heartburn as they approach sentencing. he had a gag order. he violated it. he violated it directly. he violated it by being complicit with others to violate it. he has shown absolute zero remorse. he's gone out and done anything he can to instill a lack of confidence in the criminal justice system. he committed a serious offense with lots of victims when you consider the impact that this crime had. and it really comes down -- the only thing he has in the positive column is the fact that he was president. and so, i mean, that kind of cuts both ways. you put a president in jail, it's hard to look at this if you don't consider that factor and look at all the other negative factors. i think it kind of cries out for a period of incarceration. >> you mentioned blinders, david. if you put on blinders and you had someone who was convicted of 34 felonies who have violated their gag order at least ten times, was unrepent ant and railing against the rule of law, what would you do if his name was joe blow? >> well, to be clear, when you put on blinders, what i mean to say is you put on blinders to outside influences and really -- you really are guided by the law and the facts that come before you that you find. the saying goes, and it's so true, you pursue those without fear or favor. so when i talk about blinders, i'm not talking about blinders. i'm not looking around the world and seeing what's happening so much as putting your blinders on to improper influences. something political or some sort of bias that you may have. but if you look at this on the paper, i think when you kind of do a scorecard, which judges do, you know, it's hard to see how this wouldn't be justified by a jail term, but i can also see an exercise of reasonable discretion and reasonable judgment by both judgment marshon and by alvin bragg to call for a different sentence. that's really something they're going to have to serve their souls for and determine what they think is the right exercise of their judgment. >> you know, andrew weissmann, at this moment, a.i. and chatgpt, they're still human beings making these decisions and they're still human beings who have to do exactly what david kelley just said, search their souls. if the human being was you in alvin bragg's shoes, what would you do? >> well, i think david has done an incredible job of outlining the factors. one is you alluded to, nicolle, which has to do with michael cohen. our justice system is -- its fundamental principle is treating like people like. that goes back to ar stotle. the issue are when are likes alike. how do you differentiate or not differentiate? with michael cohen, he pled to the federal equivalent of this charge. as you noted with respect to -- he pled to count 7 and 8 of the indictment. they're the exact equivalent of what it is that president trump -- former president trump was convicted of. and he got three years. that was after he pled guilty and cooperated with special counsel mueller. those two things are reasons for a lower sentence for michael cohen. i think that would weigh on me tremendously because it's hard to figure out what factors there are for former president trump that are more favorable than michael cohen. there are a lot of reasons to think he is much more culpable because he was the leader of the scheme and it was done for his benefit. so, i think that is, i think, a significant weight that i think would be very, very hard to not give him a jail term. the other is something else that he opens with, which is his ongoing sort of calls for retribution. even when he's being goaded by people trying to help him to say, you don't really mean that, do you? he goes, oh, yeah, i do, imagine any other defendant who says, yeah, i'm planning on -- i'm continuing to rob banks. i think it's a good thing. i'm planning on going after the prosecutor who just prosecuted me. you don't think that is a sentencing factor that the judge should consider? all of that goes into the fact i think so it's going to be extremely hard to come up with a nonjail sentence. frankly, the only reason you wouldn't is because he is running for president. but i think that factor kind of goes away because he either will lose the election, in which case he can go to prison any day of the week, or if he's going to be president, then the jail term isn't going to really start until after he's out of office. i mean, as a practical matter. i just think it's unlikely the judge will say you have to start the jail sentence between now and the election. and so i think if you take that off the table and you treat him like anyone else, it's really hard to see why, given his -- what he was convicted of, what michael cohen has the sentence and his continued comments and statements, it's hard to see he will not get a jail sentence. >> andrew, i have watched trump evade accountability with just this question of, what is the point of all of the levers in our system of being on trial, of having a jury, of being -- if you're found guilty, bing sentenced to prison. the point as a nonlawyer is you don't do it again. and i guess in an ideal world, you become rehabilitated before you're back out in the world. in the political context, trump has become an accelerated danger. he gets away with mueller the day after robber mueller testifies before congress is when he calls president zelenskyy and asks for that investigation or to just say there's an investigation into joe biden, right? he gets off of impeachment and he begins his shenanigans to sow doubt about the 2020 election, calling it rigged way ahead of anyone even casting a vote in the election. so, for trump every time he got away with the kinds of punishments that would rain down on any of the rest of us, and we're fortunate we have access to very capable legal defense, which most americans do not, and certainly a lot of his supporters, i imagine, don't. some of them. and some of president biden's supporters. but his behavior as a factor, explain that to me. >> i was thinking about senator collins' famous or maybe infamous statement after the impeachment that he's learned the lesson. your point is that she's right but not in the way that she intended, which is that he's learned his lesson which is he's learned that no accountability. he can get away with so much without actually being held to account. since he's been out of office, we've seen lots of civil accountability and now we've seen and now we've seen criminal accountability. i do think it will be a hard decision tore judge marshon because of the fact that the -- not the fact that he was president. it's more the timing of the fact that he's running for president, because you can easily see his determining that he has a job to do and the job requires jail time. it's simply not a condine sentence when you compare it to what others got in a situation like this. just to answer your question. if a defendant is saying, not just i will do it again, but i'm going to seek revenge on those people who held me to account, that is the antithesis of remorse. it is the -- it is a way of saying, i am a recidivist and i'm proud of it. and, further, he's really promoting that. i mean, his -- we've talked about how he is running as an outlaw. i mean, he is running against the criminal justice system. frankly, a civil justice system. all of that is a reason for him to be held to account when you think about the sentencing factors for judge marshon. and i really do think if you think about anybody else in this situation, it would be treated incredibly harshly. finally, he has had every privilege and it must be galling to people watching this show to think about all of the people who are disadvantaged, who are dealt with in the criminal justice system, very harshly, who don't have -- who aren't raised with a silver spoon in their mouth, who have to overcome adversity and -- not that that's an excuse but it is at least an explanation for where they are and donald trump doesn't have any of that. he's had every reason to be law abiding and not commit these crimes and not to be denigrating the criminal justice system and also not threatening people who are doing their public duty, whether it's jurors, judges or prosecutors. >> the other thing, if he couldn't take the off-ramp of not being criminal and he couldn't take the off-ramp of not doing it again, the off-ramp available to him after he was convicted was to not be such a jerk, to show some remorse, to stop violating the gag order and he seems to be willing a decision that david and andrew just said is quite possible. >> not only is it possible, i think one of the things that i will be watching, i'm not a lawyer, never been a prosecutor, but i've been involved in criminal justice work through civil rights for a long time, and sometimes i don't know if it's mandatory or customary, judges will let the defendant address the court before sentencing. if that is the case here, can you imagine what he may say that will push judge marshon? he may get up and attack the judge and the prosecutor and go through all of this and mock the court and put them in a very precarious position because, yes, i think they've got to deal with the reality he was president, but they also have to deal with the reality, if we allow him to continue to break the gag order and then stand in the court and defy us, what precedent are we setting for future sentences? they've got to think about that. i know d.a. bragg, we are praying for his family and him. i've never talked to him about the case. he'll be at our rally in the morning like he's always around gun violence. we don't talk about the case. i have no idea where he's going. i think rather than trying to guess where bragg is going to recommend or his office or the judge, they ought to be concerned about what donald trump may say in that courtroom if the judge gives him an opportunity to address the court before sentencing. if i was his lawyer, i would be scared to death. >> that's such an interesting point. no one is going anywhere. von hilliard will join our conversation. he's traveling with the ex-president. he was in arizona with him last night. he joins us next. still to come for all of us, we usually see mark meadows running from cameras, but this time he turned his camera on, joining a zoom into an arizona courtroom today. donald trump's last white house chief of staff was at an arraignment for his role in the criminal fak elector scheme in that state. the very latest is ahead. plus, the supreme court's legitimacy problem. brand-new disclosures from clarence thomas confirming some earlier blockbuster news reporting on the extraordinary number of gifts the justice has received from a very, very wealthy, friendly friend. later in the broadcast, president joe biden reaffirming his commitment to rooting out extremism both here at home and abroad, blasting those who threaten america's democracy. we'll dig into that after we continue after a quick break. tee continue after a quick break craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office... 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