and chaos saying, quote, he's desperate, he's out selling bibles and gold speakers. what's more troubling, they say, is he's selling out his presidency to the highest bidder down mar-a-lago. that's what president biden told a group of donors in virginia last night. while donald trump focuses on trump, believing his grievances are voters grievances. >> i got indicted more than al capone, all because i ran for office. if i didn't run for office, i would be enjoying life. you know what i enjoy this better. because we're going to make america great again. that's what i like. and i'm being indicted for you. never forget, our enemies want to take away my freedom because i will never ever let them take away your freedom. that's why i'm here. they want to silence me because i will never let them silence you, and in the end, they're not after you. quite simply put, i am just standing in their way. i'm standing in their way. >> so either donald trump or joe biden write about those voters. we have asked a number of them, and we have what they told us. joining us now, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, and staff writer for the atlantic request msnbc political contributor, mark leibovich are going to start us off. talking about donald trump, he's standing up there saying, i'm going targeted because they want to target you. it's a grievance theme, worked for him in the past to a degree. these grievances, though, you're hearing less about what donald trump wants to do when he's president and hearing more about who he wants to take out when he's president. are voters there for it, or are they there for policy? this is coming down to the determination a candidate makes on how do you energize and get those folks who are either sitting on the fence or not sure whether they feel like getting out to vote much in november, out. donald trump has made a calculated decision that being the aggrieved candidate and telling voters you should care, they're coming after me, attacking me, they're prosecuting me, and soon they're going to be coming after your rights. that can be effective. you should be scared of new york and milwaukee. that can rally up a lot of folks in the suburbs or rural parts that say, yeah, i'm scared to go into the city. that could be enough. to get some of those folks that may be more sympathetic to you. biden, on the other side. part of that is saying voters, you should care. these are the policies. you drive a contract between the second trump administration and second biden administration. these are the policies that i would enact versus donald trump would enact, and this is why you should care. >> what policies is donald trump talking about? he ran in 2016 on building the wall, making mexico pay for it, that didn't happen. what policies, is he running on for 2024? >> number one, yesterday in wisconsin, saying he would rip up the executive action on immigration that was signed by joe biden yesterday that would grant a pathway to legal status and citizenship for 500,000 undocumented spouses but then also, right, he says that, you know there's going to be peace in the world. that there wouldn't be war in ukraine. there wouldn't be war in israel if i were in office. again, a lot of these, they lack specifics, other than saying, i would undo what has happened over the last four years, and the further you go back in history, this is the part where trump is going to try to harken back to the past and what the first trump administration was like, and the difficulty for joe biden is trying to explain in detail for the public at large, this is going to be a challenge at that debate is saying, okay, when donald trump says that he would end the war in ukraine in one day or the war in israel in one day, how is he actually going to do that. what are the consequences, are we talking about dropping a bomb and what are the civilian death tolls that come from that. those are sort of the difficulties that are facing joe biden when you have donald trump here saying either i'm going to rip up what he's done. or fix us all. >> one set of voters demands specifics, and the other just asks the person, doesn't ask for specifics. that's what it is for donald trump. talking about character and chaos, i read some interesting analysis, mark, about what vaughn was just talking about in terms of immigration. this idea that part of the reason why president biden made that immigration executive order yesterday, giving the protected status to the spouses of american citizens, was in part to force the issue on the debate stage. that if that comes up, if donald trump says what he said yesterday on the campaign trail that he wants to roll that back and undo that executive order, it will force him to bring back up the idea that he separated families, not the idea, the actuality that he separated families while he was in office. that there were child separations, kids torn away from their parents and it will force voters to remember that period in donald trump's presidency, a period that people might not so easily remember. a lot of voters might not have that recall at the top of their mind. >> yeah, i mean, that's an interesting parlay. i mean, i think what you're going to see from trump on the debate stage is not a specific and methodical defense of his child separation policy by any means. what you're going to see is some kind of blunt force, we were much tougher on the border. people thought twice about flooding into this country when i was president. i mean, a very kind of -- the statement that could be parsed, but he's not going to parse it, he's not going to go down a policy rabbit hole by any stretch. i think this is an issue that biden could be on the defensive about, not because donald trump had a perfect policy or built a wall or anything that he promised in 2016, but because that is seen poll after poll as an issue that biden and the current white house is extremely vulnerable on, and immigration, largely thanks to the drum beating of the republicans and trump mostly has become the dominant issue or a top two or three dominant issue in this campaign. so i think trump would probably welcome it. again, i don't think he's going to go, you know, policy by policy on this, but i think that that's something that, you know, he's going to obviously be somewhat ready for in a blunt force fashion. >> this focus from the biden team on reminding voters about who donald trump is, the character, the chaos, trying to remind voters that donald trump is erratic. these are these two men, compare the two of them. is that the best strategy from the biden team for what you're talking to voters about? >> i mean, i would say -- i'll take it first. i think that biden doesn't necessarily have to. he's going to remind them. that's what candidates do. they pound home a message. you're going to hear words like convicted felon, over and over again. that is a new and exciting toy for democrats to try to apply to donald trump every time they mention him. look, the chaos and the, you know, absurdities, frankly of donald trump and the exhaustion factor is something he drives himself, and, you know, he has been as he gets more visible, and as we get closer to the election, i mean, to me, that i think is probably as big a peril as anything for republicans. donald trump is going to make the case himself by being out there more. biden can remind people, but i think that's largely one of his best assets. >> what about the cliche that elections are about the future, not the past, do voters want to hear more from both of these candidates, from president biden about what they plan on doing with narrow four years in office? >> i mean, you would think. i mean, i think it's sort of a depressing cliche given that the candidates are both so old, and you know, when you're 81 and 78 it doesn't exactly conjure the future by any stretch. what's interesting about biden is that he has, you know, a record that i think a lot of people, if you take it issue by issue have really approved of. it is a little bit harder. he's been reluctant to propel that into the future in part because he spent so much energy reminding people of what trump was like, and when you have two incumbents or quasi incumbents in the case of trump, you have a more immediate point of reference to the past. it's harder to get voters focused on the future. >> vaughn, what do you think of that? >> i'm not going to argue with mark, but i think that there's reasonably what he is saying is very much true, and i think that is a difficulty that both of these campaigns are now having to come to terms with here. donald trump, i should say, i think, is eager to talk about, you know, what would take place in the future, too, in many regards. he is somebody who paints very bleak pictures of what the current life in america is right now, that doesn't always match up with reality. and so for him, i think that you have somebody who is very eager to paint a bleak picture o. -- of the future if democrats were to remain in control. >> going back to donald trump's inaugural speech, the very dark tones. >> you and i were standing next to each other and looked right at each other, as the rain started to fall. >> very dark indeed. joining us chief strategist for the bush cheney 2004 campaign, matthew dowd, how do you see these two strategies? >> i think your question about whether or not somebody's going to talk about the future is completely apropos and necessary. if i were in the biden campaign, i mean, i would be talking about the danger donald trump poses to the future of the average american, and do it in so many different ways, do it to them economically. do it for them, social security, medicare, do it for them on education and do it for them broadly on freedoms, whether it's roe v. wade or other freedoms they fear about. i think it can't be a reminder of how crazy and chaotic and coarse that donald trump is. i think people mostly have that baked in. it has to take that and put voters in a position of do you want this person making decisions on these things for your future? that to me is the best strategy going forward. >> i thought it was interesting when president biden talked about supreme court justices just the other day on jimmy kimmel and former president obama, telling voters that if donald trump is reelected, there's a very real chance he could get two more nominations. there would be pressure on clarence thomas, and samuel alito to resign during the republican presidency, and they are up there in age. is that something that galvanizes. i know the supreme court has galvanized the right. does that threat now galvanize the left, and not just the left but the independents? >> that's the voters, i mean, the voters that biden needs to focus on are not republicans or trump voters. 44% of the country is going to vote for donald trump no matter what. and 45% is going to vote for joe biden no matter what. we saw in the campaigns in the aftermath of dobbs, an argument about loss of freedom in the supreme court works, my problem with leaving it at he's going to get more justices is too much of a bank shot for most voters. what i think you have to tell him is in donald trump is president again, and he gets the nominees, these are the things you're going to lose, the access to birth control, voters, access to voting. they're going to put more restrictions and not defend voter rights. he has to make the argument more concrete with meat. it can't be donald trump is going to get two supreme court nominees or however many he's going to get. it's got to tell them, what does that mean to the average person in michigan or pennsylvania or nevada. what does that mean for their life that he may get those appointments? >> why haven't you seen more focus on that. we see so much from the biden campaign, donald trump doesn't have the character. threats to democracy, and i think anybody who's afraid of donald trump in that way is already very firmly. that message has been received by the voters who are -- who see it as true, and they're already joe biden voters. they're done. why is the biden campaign, i mean, do you think that message applies to the 10% or so voters you're talking about that haven't made up their minds yet. are those the voters affected by a message like that. more transactional, here's how your life can be improved or worsened if i'm president versus donald trump being president. >> well, katy, you go to the crux of how campaigns operate. what you try to do is have a message that plays both with motivating your base and a message with swing voters in the course of this. i don't know if that's possible. i know the reminder of donald trump, how he acts and behaves is motivational for the base, and what you normally try to do is lock down the base, motivate them early because you want volunteers and you want campaign contributions early, and what you do in the last three, four, five weeks, go directly to swing voters, and my expectation is that's what the biden campaign is -- right now, they want to motivate and get volunteers and campaign contributions. in the final five weeks, i think they're going to do exactly what you said, and what i was reminding folks of is appeal to voters. not for what biden can do. i don't think that's a winning strategy, remind them of the threat donald has to their lives and futures. >> i haven't had anybody reply with that level of specificity. it's about base donors, base motivation, getting volunteers out there, and later it's going to be about convincing that last 10%, who are already, i think, going to be late deciders. matthew dowd, thank you so much. >> thanks, katy. coming up, what the biden campaign is trying to do to win over black voters. the reverend al sharpton is with me next. plus, what benjamin netanyahu is accusing the biden administration of, and what white house said in response. they are confused. >> and later, nearly half of americans are in the middle of 90 degree temperatures and more, sweating it out. how long this intense heat is going to last. we've got the forecast in just a minute. we are back in 90 seconds. ack i. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ chewy, a citi client, uses citi's financial expertise to help drive its growth and keep its supply chain moving, so more pet parents can get everything they need... right when they need it. keeping more pets, and families, happy. ♪♪ for the love of moving our clients forward. for the love of progress. the all new godaddy airo helps you get your business online in minutes with the power of ai... ...with a perfect name, a great logo, and a beautiful website. just start with a domain, a few clicks, and you're in business. make now the future at godaddy.com/airo sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪ according to polling, president biden is losing some black male voters, potentially enough to swing the election in crucial battleground counties and state. in light of that, the biden team is trying to convince voters trump doesn't care about them, calling out trump's lifetime of racism in an e-mail blast with hyper links to examples. they are airing juneteenth on bounce tv, and sponsoring a juneteenth celebration in milwaukee, the town trump called horrible last week. joining us now, president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. really good to have you. >> thank you. >> explain the bleeding of these voters from president biden to donald trump. why? why is this happening? >> well, one, i'm not sure that i agree that the polling is accurate because i saw how polling in 2020, and it didn't happen saying that black men we're going to go in numbers that they didn't go. there is some apathy, there are some that are questioning, and i think a lot of it is that the biden campaign must take more seriously the messaging to go directly on these issues like they're doing today, and they have people that have standing and trust among black voters as surrogates. can't use politicians to talk about politicians alone. you have to have people that relate to them. i also think that they have a big argument that they're not using well against giving the categorical bias and racism that donald trump has demonstrated throughout his career. i'm from new york like he is. in the 70s, he and his father were cited by the justice department for discrimination in the way they handle their real estate in terms of who could get apartments in their building. i would have some of those victims on the campaign trail. he's advocating that the central park five, five young black men, and latino men, young boys, really, were guilty of a crime that later they were found by dna not to have done after they did time in jail, and trump took out ads calling for them to get the death penalty. i would have them on the road. i would have george floyd's family on the road. trump was president when george floyd happened. never opened his mouth talking about justice for them. went in front of a church across from the white house, had the protesters moved and attacked the protesters. the best case against donald trump for blacks is donald trump himself. but you've got to put it out there, and you've got to put it out there with the right people that have no political ax to grind but just want to tell the truth about a man who's never been on our side. >> what did you think of donald trump going to the bronx and holding a rally in the bronx? >> i think it was the greatest example of how donald trump in his own town is not regarded by blacks and latinos. he had a mostly white audience, just like when he went to the black church in detroit and it was 8/10 white. if you can't draw people in the bronx of color to your rally, that ought to tell people around the country something. he couldn't bring on one businessman. he's been in business for decades. how could we not see him say i did some of the financing, i was an accounting firm, i was a legal firm. none of that. how can you be in city with 2/3 black and latino, and never did any business of any of them of any consequence. i said this morning and i'll repeat it, the times that i have met with donald trump, argued with him, tried to get to move on certain things. i brought contracts with him. every time i have gone into trump tower to meet with him, it was like going up the rocky mountains where there's snow on the top. i have never seen a black employee in trump organization. so for him to get black votes from people that he never took any kind of investment with or did business with, or even stood up for their rights. to me is somebody that has not looked at the record, clearly or carefully. >> you know how to paint a picture. apathy, i want to ask you about that. is there a risk -- you mentioned it a moment ago, but is there a real risk of apathy among black voters, looking at president biden. maybe they see donald trump exactly the ways you have described him, and know all of that evidence that you just laid out, but do you look at president biden and say, yeah, this man, though, he's got an idea for how to make my life better, and it's a positive idea that i want to sign on to for four years or is it all about don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to