change across the company, including here at cnn. and i'm sad that i won't be here to cover it. but since this is our final episode, we're going to do something today. this is a special hour and it's about change. it's about change all across the media world. what's changing? what might change? and what must never change about the accountability function of journalism. i love this show. this small but mighty show punched above its weight for so many years. even a former president commented on the cancellation. "reliable sources" has been a one of a kind show, and a popular show. this is one of cnn's highest rated weekend shows. so i want to say thank you to all of you watching around the world. i was lucky to be a part of it for nine years. but it began 30 years ago after the gulf war. so here's what the iconic former cnn ceo tom johnson said on facebook when he heard the show was canceled. he said it was founded by ted turner and leaders of cnn who felt deeply that media organizations have a responsibility to report and evaluate the journalism profession itself. that was the idea. it was a great idea. it is a great idea. and i know many of you are just like johnson. you're going to miss the show. thank you to the thousands and thousands and thousands of e emails and tweets i've been receiving. i'm going to share them with the staff, because they have made this possible. the thing about tv is it's fleeting. it evaporating up into the air, and a lot of it is not meant to be remembered. but this program transcended that. it's a part of journalism school curriculum. teachers across the country, teachers use segments from this show all the time in classrooms, lessons, guiding and teaching the next generation. founding host bernard kyle and rick davis said this program was meant to be a critical lens on the media. such a special thing, a critical lens on the media. this week, we have been given the gift of signing off on our own terms and talking about the media industry. so let's not waste any more time. let's bring in journalist carl bernstein, co-author of many books, most recently the author of "chasing history." carl, thanks for being with me on this final program. >> good to be with you, always. >> i want to know, we have talked so many times over the years about the role of the press. but it's changed a lot in the 30 years this program has been on the air. in the 50 years for example since watergate. what do you think is most important about what has changed and what do we need to make sure doesn't change about american journalism? >> i think the essential bottom line of reporting is to reach the people, the readers, and the viewers with what bob woodward and myself for 50 years have called the best attainable version of the truth, which means even in some of the commentary or a lot of the commentary, that it ought to be repertoirially based. i try to do that. but in this book "chasing history," the most important line in the book, it's about what i learned as a 16, 17, 18-year-old going to work in journalism, is a line that i was taught about great reporters covering civil rights. that is, the truth is not neutral. the truth is not neutral. that doesn't mean that we have to be fair in all we cover. we have to give acknowledgement to two sides. we have to be judicious but not judicial. i know there's been a lot of angst for instance calling donald trump not only on this network but all over a criminal. you know, we called nixon a criminal president in reporting on watergate. in fact, he never was convicted of a crime. but he was a criminal president. donald trump is a serial liar, as i once called him on the air, and i said to myself, i hope that doesn't sound pejorative, because that's what most republicans in the senate in the united states regard him as. so we have to do explaining what we do and how we do it, and the bottom line has to be the best attainable version of the truth, a and the truth is not neutral. ask yourself, is a lynching neutral? i've covered those kinds of stories. it's not neutral. >> it's not neutral. i didn't know if the former president's name was going to come up so early in the hour, but it's appropriate, because i think about my tenure here at cnn. he's the story. he's been the story. he's been the defining story for the last decade, for better or worse. when we think about the media's response to trump, maybe we got some things wrong. have you thought about what we got right and wrong in the past decade? >> yeah, i think we've gotten a number of things wrong. and i probably have myself. but i think the primary thing we got wrong in cable news especially is when donald trump was running for president in the primaries, we gave him unprecedented free air time. and i think that unprecedented free air time, because we thought it was such good theater, that we covered his plane swooping down to a campaign rally. we were there waiting brathlessly. i think it was a kind of irresponsible coverage that we did, all the cable news networks did it. it gave him free ammunition to spread lies, to essentially give campaign speeches with us not making a decision about what is news. and that's the other thing that we do as reporters, editors, what is news is as important a function as we do. >> can we unpack that for a minute? i've been thinking so much about this lately, that some of the biggest stories in the world barely ever register as news. certainly the climate crisis getting more attention. but you think about homelessness, the inability for future generations to own and invest and own homes. all of these economic conditions, because they happen slowly, because we have drip, drip, drip things that are happening in this world, they don't get the attention that the sudden burst from the fire hose does. how do we fix that, to make sure the most important stories are treated like they're news? how do we make sure it's news? >> first of all, i think all of the areas you mentioned can come under the heading of the following, which i believe is the most important story in the world today, that all news organizations, especially this one need to be covering in great detail. and that is the pendulum swinging against democracy all over the world. in western europe, in the former communist east, in this country where more and more we see authoritarianism. not just in the presidency of donald trump, but in the state legislatures, in the campaigns that we're watching now. but the decline of democracy, and its metricicly possible to measure it. the number of countries that have gone from democracy to authoritarianism is increasingly rampant. we need to cover it, even if it's not sexy. it goes to everything you're -- >> what if it is uncomfortable? what if there is pressure not to do it, carl? what if it's scarey in i'm playing devil's advocate, so you can guide us as journalists what to do. >> well, i think this is a function of news organizations and the reporters and editors. you know, it's not very often, in my 60 something years as a reporter -- 60, i don't want to think how many years -- that a good editor or a good news organization turns down a good story. i think as reporters and editors, we need to go to our management. if somebody has said no, you can't put that on the air, and we need to say look, here's why this is a great story. you know, there's a -- and i think both jeff zucker and david zaslov, have been commit through their years to understanding what good journalism is. when he came over to warner, he was asked in an interview with oprah, what is your favorite movie at warner brothers? he said "all the president's men." what is that movie? it's about all the things that we're talking about, how you go about getting the best attainable version of the truth. i think jeff zucker was committed to that. it's basic. it's what we do. and, again, it is not about neutrality, it's about fairness, it's about doing the reporting, it's about getting the multiple sources. all of cable news has commentary. it ought to have commentary. it should be labeled perhaps a little better as commentary. but that's a function, too. just as newspapers and old news organizations had editorial pages. we have room for both. we need to be doing both. but both need to be of the highest caliber. >> i agree with you, and i love you, carl bernstein. thank you for coming on. you gave me an idea just now, you mentioned "all the president's men," it's streaming on hbo max. i think i'll watch that later today. thank you for the inspiration. >> good to be with you always. thanks, brian. >> i've got some time. up next, freedom of the press is under fire. so we have two more really important guests to talk about. jeffrey goldberg and jody ginsburg. they are both up next. 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(fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. welcome to allstate where anyone who bundles their home and auto insurance saves. isn't that right phil? sorry, i'm a little busy. what in the world are you doing? i'm in the metaverse, bundling my home and auto insurance. why don't you just do that in the real world? um, because now i can bundle in space. watch this. save up to 25% when you bundle home and auto. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today. welcome back to "reliable sources." where, for over 30 years, we have been talking about the role of the press in society around the world. the press has continued to come under assault in many countries, increasingly right here in the united states. we have seen threats, we have seen murders of journalists in some countries. we have seen illegal detentions. we have seen so many attempts to stifle freedom of speech, including just recently, here in new york state, with the stabbing attack against authorsal man rushdie. i'm showing you some examples of our coverage over the years. that's just a small snapshot. so here to talk more about the risk to journalists and what can be done, jody ginsburg, the president of the committee to protect journalists, and jeffrey goldberg, editor in chief of the atlantic. jody, tell us what viewers need to know about the climate of the free press. >> one, how vital journalism is to democracy. we don't talk about freedom of the press because journalists are special creatures that need special defense, but journalists plays a vital role in holding the powerful to account and keeping us safe and providing information. think about covid that keeps us safe. at the same time, this vital pillar of democracy is under threat like never before. >> compare that for me, what's changed in 10 or 20 years and why? >> a few things. firstly, increased political polarization. we're seeing a decline in democracy worldwide. carl bernstein alluded to this earlier. countries that should be democracies, upholding fundamental freedoms, are not doing so. in that decline, there is increasing their verbal attacks on the press, their discrediting of the press, because in discrediting the press, that enables them to avoid scrutiny. we have seen that in the likes of donald trump, who calls the press enemies of the people. we've seen that in brazil. >> so around the world. but the counterargument, at least here in the united states, the media has failed the country, the media has failed the public. trump is channeling the appropriate anger of the public. what do you say to that? >> i think you need to recognize that journalists have -- do an incredible job worldwide covering issues that matter to the people. whether they do that this their local context and frankly, that's where they're under most threat, local journalists, reporting on local issues. >> very important to remember that. >> they're not all working for cnn or fox news. there are journalists in the local communities reporting on local issues. think about "the boston globe" exposing the issue in the catholic church. think about local journalists covering the tornadoes last year in kentucky. those are not journalists who are out of touch, as is presented by the likes of trump, with the people. those are the people. they're inside their communities reporting on issues that are important to their local communities, and often those are the people who are most targeted. when we look at the journalists being attacked worldwide, being killed, most off they are local journalists. >> it's important for people to understand. what we have seen is black slisl -- backsiding in democratic countries, leaders trying to turn the public against the press. what are you thinking about in your newsroom, how are you trying to counter these threats? >> well, the important thing is not to be fooled, right? authoritarians obviously see the press correctly as an adversary, trying to get the truth about their authoritarian tendencies and behaviors. authoritarians to stay in power need to convince the people that the press is the enemy. what we need to do -- well, a couple of things. the first is to stay the course and report the truth plainly and fearlessly. and the second thing we need to do is a better job as an industry. i'm not a person that believes the media is one thing. obviously, we need to do a better job as individuals and organizations of explaining why we do what we do, why it's important for people that we do the things that we do. and going back all the way, going back to the founder of what this country said 200 years ago, talked about the indispensability of a free press, and we need to educate people about the indispensability of what we do to make democracy work. when you have an authoritarian in power or anywhere else, they'll be working directly against that interest. >> thomas jefferson once said the press is impotent when it abandons itself to falsehood. but in some corners of the american media, they accept falsehood instead. is the rest of the media doing enough to call it what it is? >> umm, i can't speak for the rest of the media. >> by the way, i think "the atlantic" has. we tried to here. but i wonder if we're not meeting this moment and speaking about the threat to democracy. >> look, we are -- we are obviously like anybody else. we have our traditions and our norms of the way of doing things. but what's happened in politics in the last six or seven years is abnormal. it's not normal in the usual way that things have gone in the united states. i think we have been -- many organizations, many individuals have been slow, and i understand it. it's completely normal. i think we were slow -- i remember six years ago, you know, not wanting to use the word "racist" to describe donald trump. and looking for all these descriptions, racially charged rhetoric. finally you realize, you know what? you have to speak plainly and directly and call things what they are. so we do use "racist." and we did not use "lie" to describe lies for a long time. but now we do. so i think we're catching up. but we have to -- we also have to explain why we're doing that. we are defenseless in a kind of way, because we have made ourselves defenseless, because we assume everybody understands what we are, why we're doing it, and how we do it. and i don't think that's enough any more. because there are people who are casting aspersions on the role and methodology of a free press. >> they're calling the media evil. we're just flawed. jody, how do you react to what jeffrey said? >> we haven't always done a great job of explaining why journalism is important and showing our workings. how do we know something? i think what is increasingly challenging at the moment is, when facts become up for grabs, that's when it becomes difficult. the job of a journalist we always say is not to ask people whether or not it's raining and take both sides, it's to go outside and feel the rain falling on you. we are in a moment where we go outside, and you feel the rain falling on you and tell someone, they might say fake news. part of our job has to be really to engage people, reinfuse people about facts, the importance of facts, the importance of agreeing on some key fundamentals and key information. i think the other thing that's really important, and we have to keep doing is making sure that journalists are properly supported, that we have the financial support that journalists need, but also that they have the backing of those in authority. when those in power have done great journalism, journalists become fair game. and what you see that is morph into online harassment. we have seen a huge increase in that in the past 30 years. and that quite oftenly morphs into real world violence. >> that online harassment is describing an environment of toxicity around journalism that is much more poisonous than it was. it's gotten so much more toxic. and doesn't that scare off some writers and turn off some reporters? don't we news a generation of great journalists because they don't want to be harassed, they don't want to be part of the mess? how do we ensure we're still getting the next best class of journalists to join in this profession and tell the truth around the world, when we are under this poisonous cloud? >> right. that's interesting. i don't know if i worry about as much about recruiting young people into journalism. you have to have guts and you have to want to take risks in your life and you have to not want to make that much money. you have to do a bunch of things to qualify to be in journalism. we're seeing good people come into journalism. some people who don't want to come in won't come in. i'm worried about ownership level as much as what happens in the newsrooms themselves. i think which need to make sure that owners understand that they have a responsibility -- you own a media outlet in america. you have a responsibility. you almost have -- i don't want to call it constitutional responsibility, but a civic responsibility. it's very different from owning a chicken restaurant or car company. you have to be willing to stand up to authority. you have to be willing to lose friends and to be -- you have to be willing there's going to be government pressure against you. that's a larger anxiety. because they control the paychecks. >> i was so proud to be here for the years that cnn -- and i'm talking of only the past, i don't know what will happen in the future. so proud to be here when cnn was setting up so strongly. not because they were standing up to trump's threats but standing up to a government threatening the press. regardless of political party, the press has to stand up to that pressure. so i want to give you the final word. >> of course we have to stand up to that kind of pressure. we have to recognize that's becoming increasingly difficult. if you think about the pressure for people like the no bell laureate, who was subjected to constant harassment, that is a real challenge especially for female journalists to deal with and is unacceptable. we have to do more to support those individuals so we don't find a whole generation that is put off from journalism. >> thank you both for the conversation on this. up next, information overload. do you feel it? what can we do about it? i'll ask a pam of all-star media reporters and critics in just a moment. like #6 the boss. pepperoni kicks it off with meatballs smothered in rich mamarinara. do