number two, the cost of the wars in iraq and afghanistan. $1.3 trillion at this moment. a distant third, the president's stimulus plan, $831 billion. never thought $831 billion would look cheap. well, here's another powerful number. right now this country is paying $224 billion a year in interest on our debt and that number is mushrooming. it becomes an exponential problem. by 2020 we will be paying $544 billion in interest alone. if you want to see something really scary, let's compare that $544 billion to medicare. by 2020 in the year we're paying $544 billion in interest, medicare will cost a mere $279 billion. we'll be paying almost double that just in interest on our debt. now, you may say that's clearly foul and bad and terrible things, but some people believe that spending more is the best way to get this country growing again, to grow out of our problem. paul krugman said the stimulus plan was not big enough. he wants here $800 billion on top of what we already spent and he is not alone in arguing for more spending, not less. former treasury secretary larry summers wrote in this week's "financial times" and in the "washington post" a country that pursues austerity to the point where its economy is driven into a downward spiral does its creditors no favor. as in if you keep cutting and earning less, you have less money to pay back the interest and the interest doesn't get smaller. we checked in with our outfront strike team made up of ceos, entrepreneurs, innovators, they overwhelmingly say no to more stimulus. john donohoe wrote the biggest threat to the economy is the growing deficit. we need to get simpson /bowles implemented soon after the election. and stewart miller told me we need to let the free markets work and start to focus on deficit reduction. you can see more about our strike team as always on our blog. but now one man who has made the fight against government spending his mission, senator tom coburn of oklahoma. he's the author of the new book entitled "the debt bomb." he is outfront tonight and good to see you, sir, in person. >> good to see you. >> i want to cut right to the chase here about one thing. you hate debt. you think we're in over our heads. but you are open, and this is really important, you are open to taxes to revenue as a way to get out of this problem. >> sure. >> so not just cutting as larry summers said may be negative but also raising revenue. >> well, there's two points. one is if you want to have increased spending, the best way to have increased spending is to have the private sector do it. we have over $2 trillion sitting on the sidelines right now that is not being spent because there's no confidence that congress is running the country in a way that will create some certitude that you would put that money at risk. so you could have a combination of revenue increases, you can flatten -- broaden the base and flatten the rates and also pay for it by trimming some of the wasteful spending that nobody truly benefits other than those directly hired and wasting the spending, and you can accomplish what everybody wants to accomplish. but i would contend it's much better if we have that $2 trillion come into the economy than we borrow $800 billion and put it into the economy because the market will allocate it and get better returns on it. >> you were part of the gang of six, democrats, republicans. mark warner comes on this show and everybody seems very reasonable. yes, some people are going to pay more. i want a combination of things, i want cuts. all right. but then there's people like grover norquist and he is, you've called it a purity test that he makes republicans sign. why is that not helpful? >> first of all, it's not helpful because he's the author and developer of what a tax increase is, which is ridiculous. the senate voted for two of my amendments, one to eliminate the blending requirement on ethanol. he called that a tax increase. that was nothing but spending through the tax codes. >> a subsidy. >> not a subsidy. they have a subsidy besides that. this is just a tax benefit. it's spending. and so you can't allow somebody from the outside to determine what in fact it is. the other thing is we eliminated a tax break for the hollywood producers. 38 republicans voted for that. so there's not a clear definition of what violates mr. norquist's code but the vast majority of republicans don't agree with him of what that is. >> so obviously -- i remember when jon huntsman was the one who was brave who said i'm not going to sign the pledge. >> the question is, is what's our commitment? our commitment ought to be the commitment to the constitution and limited government that would breed the best and healthiest and most vigorous economy in the world. that's where we sign on the line and that's what we swear to when we come into congress. >> i want to just play a quick sound bite from paul krugman making the case for another $800 billion and get your reaction. here he is. >> we've had an overwhelming vindication of the ideas that say this is the time for governments to spend, this is the time not to cut back. the urgent priority is jobs, deficits should wait and yet that's an argument nobody wants to hear in power because it's inconvenient for inner circles. i have to say in the end it's inconvenient for the 1% or the 0.1%. >> what's your reaction to him? >> i go back to what i said before. first of all, where are we going to borrow the money? the federal reserve is just printing money. the impact of $800 billion, let's talk about what that impact is. let's say that he's right and it has positive impact with the economy. but adding that to the debt, we've got one in two college graduates right now that can't get a full-time job. it means your ira ten years from now will not have but half the purchasing power it has today. and it means if you have a home, your home value is going lower, not higher. so that's a pure kanesian argument. the way you get there is to build the confidence and do the things as congress to get people the money that's sitting on the side now. if you look at the numbers, the velocity of money right now, and i'm not sure all your listeners are familiar with that. but the fact is we're at the lowest level we've ever recorded in terms of velocity. all the money is sitting there to be loaned but there's no demand for it. the reason there's no demand is there's no confidence. our biggest deficit, is a deficit of leadership both in congress and at the white house because we have to rebuild confidence in this country. we ought to have leadership that's talking about here's the problems, they're all solvable, let's work together to solve them. >> senator, thank you very much. obviously senator coburn, a member of the gang of six, republicans, democrats working together. we hope there's a lot more of that. outfront story too is next. still outfront, sex assault in the city. >> there are a lot of women who have strong concerns right now. >> a dissident's dilemma. >> chen and his family have been threatened. >> all this outfront when we come back. and a choice. take advil now and maybe up to four in a day. or choose aleve and two pills for a day free of pain. way to go, coach. ♪ how did i get here? dumb luck? or good decisions? ones i've made. ones we've all made. about marriage. children. money. about tomorrow. here's to good decisions. who matters most to you says the most about you. massmutual is owned by our policyholders so they matter most to us. massmutual. we'll help you get there. ♪ where the sun never goes out ♪ ♪ and the sky is deep and blue ♪ ♪ won't you take me american flight 280 to miami is now ready for boarding. ♪ there with you fly without putting your life on pause. be yourself. nonstop. american airlines. [ man announcing ] what we created here. what we achieved here. what we learned here. and what we pioneered here. all goes here. the one. the accord. smarter thinking from honda. ahead, outfront what appears to be a rape epidemic in an american town, and a cloak and dagger. tom clancy-type international entrying story involving, of course, america and china. but first, our second outfront story tonight. the day after president obama's surprise trip to afghanistan where he made headlines on the war while marking the anniversary of osama bin laden's killing, mitt romney wanted to bring the focus back home. >> people ask me, well, what would you do to get the economy going? i say well, look at what the president has done and do the opposite. americans are tired of being tired of this economy and of this president and they want real change. >> john avlon, riann and jamal are with me now. everyone was picking on the president for a few days about politicizing the death of osama bin laden. well, you know what, if they're going to say you're doing it, then you show up on the one-year anniversary and give your big speech and hit a home run. >> that's right. you bigfoot it with the bully pulpit and that's what he did and it shut everybody up. i think the romney camp got the message a little belatedly that arguing against bin laden was a loser. concede the point, move it back to the economy, and that's what you heard him doing here today, using a sense of humor which is always good. >> it looked like what he tried to do, as we said. the president punked mitt romney, put him in a position where all he could say was, yes, good job, sir, basically. >> that's absolutely right. when you think about george h.w. bush, for example, he was a genuine war hero and achieved a tremendous military victory on behalf of the united states in the gulf war. guess what, no one cared. by the time november of 1992 rolled around, americans decided, fair enough, we were excited about you a couple of years ago, we're not anymore. >> jamal, was there any downside to the president -- everybody is talking about people who weren't even born when this war started are going to be occupying iraq -- afghanistan, sorry, through the year 2025. but clearly the president thinks any downside there is well worth the big boost he got last night. the cheering of the troops surrounding their commander in chief. >> yeah. most americans really want to see the president of the united states, any president and the troops and honor the troops. so even if they don't support the war, they do support the troops and american effort, wherever it is the troops may be. so the president i think smartly got himself very associated with that. the president likes to play spades. in spades, i think he slammed the big joker down on the table yesterday and kind of scared mitt romney back -- set him back a little bit. but the romney campaign has to be very careful, the democrats lived through this in 2004 running against president bush. you can't throw everything that you have at that income bent. you've got to be very disciplined about going at the economy, if that's your message, sticking to it and not getting distracted by these other issues. >> all right. let's get distracted for a moment since you've given me the segment. this is just, i mean -- you know, everybody has people like this in their past in some way, shape or form. publishing kpermts from an upcoming book called "barack obama the story" which has diary entries from a woman named genevieve cook whom the president dated in 1984. she said the first time she told the president she loved him, which means he was loveable, there's the good side, he said thank you. well, maybe he was nervous. okay. she also wrote, quote, his warmth can be deceptive, though he speaks sweet words and can be open and trusting, there is also that coolness. i began to have an inkling about th some things about him that could get to him. then she said he still intrigues me in her diary. >> this is how america feels about barack obama or how they felt about him in 2008. he was kind of cool, he had this demeanor and easy charm. but wait, does he really -- you have to win him over. those are the kind of people you love the most. >> the ones who won't love you back, jamal? >> the unrequited love of the american people? >> it's genius, certainly in terms of wooing. >> yeah, i think, first of all, this is a 30-year-old relationship and lord knows the last thing any of us want is dredging up old significant others and have them testify on your behalf 20 years later. but there's a great moment in history where bess truman is burning harry truman's love letters. he says bess, what are you doing, think of history. and bess truman says, i am. you maybe wish that your ex-girlfriends had done that if you were president. >> absolutely. but you know all these presidents have some kind of thing, you know, all the pop psychologists talk about this. there's some kind of yearning or character thing that goes on with presidents. and whether it's bill clinton's desire to be loved by everybody or george w. bush and his struggles with alcohol or, you know, barack obama and his kind of cool aloofness, there's always something about them that's a little bit -- you know, can be examined by the pop psychologists. >> they all have father issues. that's nice. let's blame it on the fathers for once and not the mothers. thanks to all three of you. eric, mitt romney's main man, outfront next in story three. still outfront, a dissident's dilemma. >> chen and his family have been threatened. >> hazed to death. >> his anger because no one has been arrested. >> all this outfront in our second half. [ male announcer ] this is the at&t network. a living, breathing intelligence helping business, do more business. in here, opportunities are created and protected. gonna need more wool! demand is instantly recognized and securely acted on across the company. around the world. turning a new trend, into a global phenomenon. it's the at&t network -- securing a world of new opportunities. ♪ yoyou u wawalklk i intna coconvnvenentitiononalal ms ststorore,e, i it't's s rert ababouout t yoyou.u. ththeyey s sayay, , "w"weleu wawantnteded a a f firirm m bebn lilie e onon o onene o of " wewe p prorovividede t thet inindidivividudualalizizatat yoyourur b bodody y neneede. ohoh, , wowow!w! ththatat f feeeelsls r reae. itit's's a aboboutut s supuppope yoyou u fifindnd i it t momost. toto c celelebebraratete 2 25 5f bebetttterer s sleleepep-f-forof yoyou u - - slsleeeep p nr inintrtrododucuceses t ther ededititioion n bebed d st inincrcrededibiblele s savf $1$1,0,00000 f foror a a l li. ononlyly a at t ththe e slsleeer ststorore,e, w wheherere n coming up, outfront, a blind activist in china says america turned its back on him. and the feds step in after an outbreak of rapes in a montana town. now to our third story outfront. earlier tonight our own political contributor said mitt romney got punked by president obama's trip to afghanistan. romney's senior adviser is outfront tonight for an exclusive conversation. good to see you, sir. appreciate your taking the time. i want to get straight to it because we've got a lot to talk about but i want to start there with afghanistan. mitt romney said he was pleased that the president went to afghanistan. do you think he made a mistake? should he have criticized him? should he not? are you happy with how he handled it? >> well, erin, thank you for having me on the show. no, i think it's entirely appropriate for the president as commander in chief to visit our troops serving overseas. that's what he did in afghanistan and i think he needs to communicate with our armed forces, let them know exactly what it is we expect of them, what their mission is, and to express his appreciation for the courageous way in which they carry it out. i think that's entirely appropriate. >> do you think that mitt romney should have taken the opportunity to say, well, here's how i would do it differently, or i wouldn't keep our troops until 2025 or whatever it might have been rather than just saying that he was pleased or do you think you got the messaging right from the mitt romney side? >> well, look, where we had a difference of opinion with the obama campaign was late last week when they produced an ad that suggested that mitt romney would have arrived at a different decision in carrying out or issuing the kill order for osama bin laden. look, when osama bin laden was killed a year ago, that was a momentous occasion, and at the time governor romney congratulated the president, he congratulated our armed forces and our intelligence community. this brought us together as a nation, and it was sad to see a year later the president use osama bin laden as the opportunity to issue a divisive and partisan political attack against his opponent. that was more than a bit unseemly. >> i want to ask you about, obviously, the big event here. your foreign policy spokesman quit two weeks on the job. he's gone. he had come under fire, of course, as we're all aware now by conservative activists for the fact that he was gay. he had supported a u.n. gay rights resolution. the family research council president, tony perkins, was -- said he was glad. he said brian fisher, the radio host had attacked him and he said, i quote, when he quit, he said, this is a huge win. did he leave because he was gay? >> well, first let me correct you. he wasn't two weeks on the job. he was scheduled to start may 1 and of course we were disappointed that he chose to resign ahead of his start date. we tried to persuade him to stay. look, we hired rick because he was supremely qualified to serve as our foreign policy spokesman. this is a guy who spent eight years at the u.s. mission to the united nations. he served four different ambassadors, including john bolden. we thought he would have filled a very specialized need that we had for someone who could speak on foreign policy and national security matters. we tried to persuade him to stay. he felt for his own reasons that he couldn't serve effectively and we were disappointed that he decided to resign. >> so you did try to persuade him to stay? i'm just curious, because his statement and i just want to quote it directly to get your response. he said, quote, my ability to speak clearly and forcefully on the issues has been greatly diminished by the hyperpartisan discussion of personal issues that sometimes comes from a presidential campaign. obviously it sounds there, reading between the lines, that the focus on his personal decisions, on perhaps his sexuality, was why he chose to go. maybe not because it was happening in your campaign, but it was happening by others in the republican party? >> yeah, and that's disappointing. wherever there are voices of intolerance within the party or the democratic party for that matter, it doesn't matter where it's coming from, it's disappointing. the governor has taken the opportunity in the past to denounce those voices of intolerance. but in rick's case, and i can't speak for rick, but i think he felt that his effectiveness was going to be compromised, that he couldn't carry out the job the way that he wanted to do it. but let me tell you with respect to governor romney and his record of hiring, it is based strictly on qualifications. we do not take into consideration nonfactors like race or ethnicity or sexual orientation. we look for the best possible people to do the job. we thought rick would have been the best person to be our foreign policy pokesman. we tried to persuade him to stay on and are disappointed that he resigned. >> one thing that i want to ask on the general motors bailout. i'm curious about this. i wanted to play a very quick sound bite for you about what mitt romney said today. here's what he had to say about how he'd handle the economy versus president obama. >> people ask me, well, what would you do to get the economy going? i say well, look at what the president's done and do the opposite. >> now,