the imf, alexus glick, experienced on wall street and covering and she is the ceo of the gen youth foundation, will cain is the cnn contributor, cloudy with a chance of rain has been your forecast. anything that's going to part the clouds? >> i don't think anything will part the clouds until europe clears up, which might be a while. we're probably in for stable, slow growth, but there's more risk to the downside than the upside. >> let's talk about europe. just this week it became more difficult and expensive for spain to wore ro money. we're looking at bond yields and this is telling us there's potentially a funding problem in europe. explain why that is so important? >> europe is a quarter of global economy. european banks are interlocked with our banks. so we want them to fix this, but i wonder, they might need a new constitution before this is over and do they have the political wherewithal to get a new constitution? >> you think we had political problems on debt in this country. >> at least we have a constitution that's pretty darn good. they don't. >> alexis, europe is a big driving force here? >> it is a big driving force and more head winds in an already challenging economy will make 2012 as unpredictable as possible. and that's dangerous right now. if you look at the united states, 11 million homes upsidedown, they owe more on the mortgage. unemployment, look at unemployment, 14 million people out of work, that's not getting any better and there's nothing to show us in terms of the road map going forward to signal that that's going to get any better. how about the 17.5 million children in this country who do not know where they are going to get their next meal. you stack this us with what's going on in the global economy and things look pretty ugly. >> i want to show you two cnn orc polls. the first shows just 35% of the americans approve of the way the president is handling the economy. pretty obvious the economy will be the president's biggest hurdle next november. perhaps that's the first time that romney now tops obama. in a head-to-head matchup among registered voters. will, as a conservative, are you ready to pop the cham pain? >> certainly an ugly economy like the one that ken and alexis described is bad for an incoming president. should mitt romney become president, the big question is so what? the second thing alexis talked about unemployment, we didn't focus enough on debt. everything from the american homeowners or world economy is overleveraged on debt. we're going through a de-leveraging process. you have to grow out of debt. one of the ways is through tax reform. getting rid of loopholes and exemptions. simplifying the tax hole. interestingly the one candidate who's voice nod interest in that is mitt romney. >> simplifying the tax code. we don't have a simple political process at the moment right now. how realistic is it simplifying the tax code and starting to fix our debt problems and our tax problems that way? >> we can pray. what will said is absolutely right. that is the ticket. we need more revenue but we need to grow. we need incentives for people to produce and grow, the only way to square the circle but they are politically paralyzed. >> can we have a debt conversation and a deficit reduction conversation and a growth conversation at the same time? what i hear is people having one or the other. >> i think you need to have that conversation at the same time. when you look at the de-leveraging process and when you look at past recessions, the savings rate in this country has gone to double digits, some of what we're experiencing today, deleveraging, savings rate increasing, that's crucial. we cannot sit here and say that going forward this economy is going to be 100% dependent on two-thirds of the economy consistently spending, spending spending. it's just not the future. >> have you been watching tv, alexis? they are trag to get you to spend money again. >> i know. >> and the retail machine is getting people to spend money again. >> the tax incentive we're talking about, how to put more money in your paycheck so you can go out and spend. we saw it during the bush era. these are not the solutions that's going to turn the cycle around. >> these are the structural imbalances that led to the crisis. when you look at china and europe and the u.s., we're in the same position we were in the same totally unbalanced world. >> we are. i mean the u.s. is still borrowing a ton of money from china. united states consumers saving a little more, but there's still tons debt. looking forward, absolutely, we have to do something about that. but that's where it comes. to tax reform. you've got to do something. you can't live the way you're living. if you don't want it to get worse, you have to do something about it. >> at least until the next election and when you get close to the next election you can't do anything about it until you're past the next election and it goes on forever. >> tax reform might be an impossible ticket in washington, but the reason i am focusing on it is because the reasons that alexis just said. the increased savings rate are good things. you know what, the government has limited tools, but tax reform is one of the things they could actually do to encourage growth. will they? you're being a realist christine and the answer is probably no. >> but don't you think we have had multiple opportunities this year, particularly what we're facing down here with this deadline and this super committee, we could show the rest of the world that we're not republicans and democrats, standing for just entitlements or standing tore just no to raising taxes, aren't we americans at the end of the day. this whole process infuriates me because we have an opportunity to lead the way, to show a little leadership and to right the ship and yet in both cases we're down to the drop dead last second to do something about it. >> let's say that. i want to talk more about the super committee when we come back and something the president said. president obama used the words americans and lazy in the same sentence. what did he mean by that? we'll get into that next too on "your money." 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>> you think in america immigrants work harder, some places like nations are doing better compared to us. >> i think it was mitt romney on the campaign trail, the president says americans are lazy, come on i think this is -- this is kind of -- it's -- >> let's be realistic it is not the aha moment this president is un-american and it shouldn't be dismissed. i do think it's a little revealing about his view of america. the operative word is we. who is he talking about when he says we? the government has been lazy, he has a misguided view about what the government's role in the economy. not cheerleader in chief, set policy and step out of the way. american business and entrepreneurs and indicting them as lazy, i would be careful. that's the one characteristic that has made america exceptional. >> i'm torn like you. i think it's okay that it's been said, but when you look at when you see the development going on across the globe, infrastructure development, our roads are crumbling. look at what's happening in the united states. we've done nothing to upgrade our own infrastructure. you see the evolution and changes that started in the united states happening abroad. the thing i worry about, particularly when you look at unemployment insurance and extending claims, extending claims and extending claims, i understand why we're doing it. but are we incentivizing folks to get out there and aggressively pursue, or is this making us to step back because we expect the entitlements will be there to protect us. >> we'll talk about this more later in the program. i want to ask you, in normal bad times, that is a real worry, but these aren't normal bad times, are they? >> they are not. i'm pretty sympathetic extending the unemployment in terms of temporarily. >> you don't think it's causing people not to go out and invent something because they are getting a jobless check. >> it makes a difference. i think alexis is right. a lot of people use up their benefits if you change it from 26 to 52 weeks. they go longer, no doubt about it. on the other hand it's very tough right now and the economy is not fair in a lot of ways. i think we have a revolution if they don't do something like that so we need to do that. on the other hand that won't get us out of it. >> do you think occupy wall street is that revolution, some sort of revolution like that? >> if i could figure out what it stood for. >> how do you know what it stands for? >> they want a revolution that stands for the 99%, but i'm not sure the message is all that clear. you and i have gone back and forth. >> it is either about corruption and inequality as a result of crime and corruption or we can all agree or inequally as a broader standard. if it's about inequality are we seeing a revolution? if that happens it's the first time it would have ever happened in the history of earth. >> i want to talk about the super committee and i can't have you here without fixing a debt crisis. >> the latest hopes depend on this so-called super committee of six democrats and six republicans, but according to peter, the republicans are the big problem. >> six people on there who signed an oath in blood to never raise any revenues. you cannot solve the deficit and debt problems to the united states of america without net revenues. it's impossible. eliminate the entire government, except for entitlement programs, you still have a deficit. you know, that's pathetic. if you can't engage in that decision, it's pathetic. >> those are two pathetics, will. is it time for republicans to drop the notion -- that tax increases don't go with deficit reduction. >> the super committee is pathetic. this thing has devolved into the conversation we have had for three or four years. we're diverging and going our separate ways on the extension of the bush tax cuts. have we not heard that song over and over and we're resorting to accounting trickery. we can go with more tax revenues, but follow the advice of those smarter than me -- professor ken rogoff, have increased tax revenues without increased tax rates. >> like a mini me of congress that couldn't do it in the first place. this is what we feared you would be down to the wire passing notes to each other through intermediaries and not in the same room anymore. >> this is something you do on wall street. it's absolutely outrageous. the fact that the s&p downgraded our debt, we were given so many warning signs, what are we going to do when we wake up next friday morning, and fitch or moody's decides to downgrade our debt because we couldn't get our act together. we signed a $787 billion stimulus bill and we cannot agree on reductions of $150 billion a year? i mean, you look at the defense budget, this makes me crazy, i'm sorry. the defense budget has doubled over the past decade and we're arguing about what impact this is going to have on the defense budget? it's doubled its $700 billion. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> early on, they did seem very energized and were passing notes among each other and it seemed they would at least strike a deal among themselves and if they couldn't sell it, they couldn't sell it. even that seems to be collapsing at this point. you never know last minute but it doesn't look good. >> the rest of the world is watching us to make sure we're not doing it the last minute, the bare minimum, right? >> but they'll lend us money for nothing. that's the problem. >> because we're less bad than anybody else, as long as we're less bad, we're still the best position. >> we set the tone as well. we can't sit here and talk about what's going on in italy and what's going on in greece and going on in spain and not be taking care of what's going on in our backyard. >> ken rogoff, alexis glick, will cane, nice to see you guys. you're absolutely right. one presidential candidate is calling the super committee the dumbest idea he's ever heard. we'll tell you who that is and what could happen if the super committee doesn't come through with serious cuts next on "your money." link... link... a new kind of broadband company committed to improving lives with honest, personal service, 5-year price lock guarantees and consistently fast speeds. ♪ some folks call me a rock star, some call me the mayor... and i love it. and, i make everybody happy. i keep my business insurance with the hartford because... they came through for me once, and i know they've got my back. for whatever challenges come your way... the hartford is here to back you up. helping you move ahead... with confidence. meet some of our small business customers at: thehartford.com/business i don't think about the unknown... i just rock n' roll. i tell you what i can spend. i do my best to make it work. i'm back on the road safely. and i saved you money on brakes. that's personal pricing. the super committee has until the middle of the week to propose a plan to cut the nation's deficit to $1.2 dlm trillion or they risk setting off unpopular automatic spending cut. newt gingrich gave his opinion of the super committee this week. >> the way i characterize it, it's as though somebody walked in and said, i'm under instructions to shoot you in the head unless you let me cut off your leg. that's what the super committee just read the stories. of all -- they don't get this done by a certain day, horrible things will happen. >> he also said the super committee is the dumbest idea he's seen in a lifetime. gene is senior writer at cnn money. any chance the super committee will prove newt gingrich wrong? >> well, he can characterize it as dumb as he wants. i don't thing a slew of bad things will happen, if the super committee fails to come up with a plan, people have said we could get downgraded or a slew of automatic cuts, none of those things may happen. here's why. markets had no expectations that could be considered positive for this committee. they won't be surprised. there may be some volatility in the near term. ratings agencies like moodies came out a few weeks ago and said we're going to wait and see what you do by 2013 essentially. and in terms of the spending cuts, congress literally has 13 months to reverse its decision. or come up with substitutions. >> they have a little back door. >> 13-month back door. it's interesting that on wall street's past performance is no guarantee of future results but they know the past performance of washington that's giving them a hint of how things might go. gloria borger, the american public too, pessimistic about the super committee, 78% say it's unlikely the super committee will agree on a deficit plan by november 23rd. that's according to a recent cnn orc poll. when asked who would be responsible if they didn't come up with a plan? 42% blame the republicans, 32% say they blame democrats. gloria, is it an example of president obama winning with his message that republicans are standing in the way of progress? in washington? >> i think they all lose. what shred of credibility they have and don't forget this is a congress with a 9% approval rating. whatever shred of credibility they have will be lost if they do nothing. people are getting increasingly pessimistic about it. they already kick the can down the road in the debt ceiling agreement that led to this. and now they could kick the can down the road again or try and do something through a back door as jeanne points out. i think overall, what does that do to congress? it says that, you know what, they can't even agree on $1.2 trillion. they are going to have to have automatic cuts that do their jobs for them and oh, by the way, republicans like john mccain may try and undo some of those pentagon cuts. so i think it's another big mess and it will be received by the public that way. >> someone who's been warning of a big mess for a long time is david walker, the ceo of the come back america initiative. you know, david, i want to show you a chart that was in the "washington post" that got our attention about how we got here. i want you to look at this. if you look at the top part of this chart, that orange and yellow, the yellow is the bush era tax cuts, that's how much of our national debt, the debt held by the public is from the tax cuts. then you can see wars in there and the economic downturn, you can see t.a.r.p., and fannie and freddie is the light blue and the gray is our debt. which was big and bad without all these other things. david, you've seen this coming for years, begging americans to take deficit reduction seriously long before it was a hot topic. what are these three things telling you about the priorities for the super committee? >> look, i never believed that the super committee was going to go big, although we need for them to, because it's not set up for success. look who's on it, four people voted against simpson-bowles. nobody voted for it. all six republican signed the american for tax reform pledge. i'm still cautiously optimistic that they will reach a deal. what they need to do is recognize that the big deal, meaning tax reform that will raise revenues and meaningful insurance reforms that significantly reduce spending will not come until after the election. they ought to recommend having a second round of recommendations with no amendments up or down vote in 2013. that's when the big deal will be done. if they don't reach at least $1.2 trillion on this, then every member of the super committee and every member of leadership should be punished by the american people because they are incompetent. >> i'm going to tell you, i think we all agree. these were the 12 people that were supposed to distill down and get this done because the bigger congress couldn't. there was a big concern early on they would be a mini me and all the same petty reasons they couldn't -- that took us to the brink before, would be here again. gloria, they are a mini me of congress. >> sure. as david points out, you know, the closer you get to an election, the less chance there is that anything substantive will get done, period. that's the rule of congress. because people are afraid of taking a politically dangerous votes, whether it's on taxes or whether it's on entitlement cuts. so what they'll do is they'll kick it down the road again. and you know, it's just -- we're in this process where there just doesn't seem to be a palatable end for anyone. by the way barack obama will then go out and run against the do-nothing congress, that includes democrats and republicans. >> i want to show you another picture out of the wall street journal. i love charts. this chart shows you the bush tax cuts and how they would add to -- they would add to the budget going out to 2021 if allowed to stay there. defense spending, take a look at that. look at defense spending, both the magnitude and size of how it adds to our bills. take a look at medicare spending. we have a super committee right now that is deadlocked really on the issue of bush tax cuts but we also have entitlement spending and defense spending that are also in magnitude growing. jeanne, everything has to be addressed. >> everything has to be addressed. they're going to have to deal with bush tax cuts by november of next year, november and december, because they expire december 31st. it could be that the lame duck congress after the presidential election, depending i guess on who wins that election, may be able to make the final decision about the bush tax cuts in the context of deficit reduction. this is a conversation we'll be having all next year, even though i agree with gloria that an election year -- is not the best to get something done. >> if barack obama wins, he's already on the record saying that he would veto any attempt to extend the bush tax cuts. >> we'll ask david walker when we come back in two minutes because we have bills to pay here too. don't go away. it's like having portable navigation, a bluetooth connection, a stolen-vehicle locator, roadside assistance, and something that could help save your life -- automatic help in a crash. it's the technology of five devices in one hardworking mirror. because life happens while you drive. for a limited time, get an onstar fmv mirror for only $199 after a $100 off. visit onstar.com for retailers. [ ben harper's "amen omen" playing ] we believe doing the right thing never goes unnoticed. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? luck? i don't trade on luck. i trade on fundamentals. analysis. information. i trade on tradearchitect. this is web-based trading, re-visualized. streaming, real-time quotes. earnings analysis. probability analysis: that's what opportunity looks like. it's all visual. intuitive. and it's available free, wherever the web is. this is how trade strategies are built. tradearchitect. only from td ameritrade. welcome to better trade commission free for 60 days when you open an account. as a super committee works on a plan to reduce our nation's debt, all eyes are on europe. that could threaten the global economy. david, we got an awful lot to learn from what europe is going through right now. i mean, quite frankly, i want to show this chart again we just showed from the wall street journal that shows you i guess the tax impact, the budget cost of extending the bush tax cuts, the projected future spending on defense and medicare, the tax cuts are the red and defense spending is the yellow and medicare spending is the blue. i mean, we've really dug ourselves into a hole. >> we have, but let's be honest, it's the bush/obama tax cuts because president obama signed an extension. the truth is, if you extend the tax cuts, that makes the deficit worse not better. if you don't end up cracking down on medicare spending it makes it worse, not better. if you extend unemployment benefits, it makes it worse, not better. ultimately what we'll have to do is reimpose tough budget controls and reform social security medicare/medicaid and reduce defense and other spending and engage in comprehensive tax reform that will generate more revenues. we will have to do all of that. all of that won't be done until after the election. and it must be done before the markets cause a debt crisis in the united states. and that could happen here within the next two to three years. >> i'm pretty sure the only thing they can really agree on, you just named a whole bunch of things, and i think the only thing they can agree on really, is maybe the kind of pizza to order if they are talking about the debt committee -- although jeanne, i talked to chris van holen, i don't think they are in the same room anymore. maybe now and then. this is getting -- it's getting down to the wire and i think they pretend as they are hopeful they'll get a decision but i don't think they'll get anything. >> i'm not in washington, but we're not hearing anything out of washington they are going to be close to a deal. you had pat toomey on american morning and they didn't show up together, they showed up separately. its 150e78s seems to me, these guys have to stand shoulder to shoulder and delivering the message. otherwise you'll get talking points. what's frustrating about covering this, we have nothing to fact check. we have everybody's word, this is what the democrats propose and republicans propose, we hear from aides, but we don't get all of the details. >> what we're seeing though and i hope david walker is right in being optimistic, but what we're seeing is people already trying to rationalize failure which is the democrats essentially saying you know, it's better to have these cuts take effect in a year in 2013 because they actually -- we protected the poor in the cuts here and defense spending will take a big hit and the republicans saying, you know what, we can get our national security credibility back by trying to restore the defense cuts because we've got to protect our troops, et cetera. they are already taking their post failure of the commission >> but what's the point of the gilley teen which is what they're supposed to be sitting there -- if they can undo it for themselves -- gloria, that drives me crazy. >> if my children behaved like this, i would give them a time-out and say we cut a deal, guys, you've got to do this. if you don't, you know, if you don't to what you promised you would do, you're going to get punished and then comes an election. >> two things. one, they need to understand that if congress does nothing, if it takes a ten-year vacation, then we have a deficit of $3.4 trillion over the next ten years, they've got to have the right benchmark. secondly, let me tell you why you're not going to get a big deal now. neither simpson-bowles, nor this super committee, has done zip outside of washington's beltway to engage the american people with the facts and truth and tough choices and help them understanding what's happening in europe can happen here. this is america's future. this is the future of our families, this is the future domestic tranquillity in our streets. where's the president? hawaii. >> he's sitting back because he can blame congress, he's not getting in the middle of this. >> he's the ceo of the united states of america. >> jeanne, last comment. >> i think i'm a little less negative than david and gloria in terms of the prospects. i think next fall the de baits over the tax cuts maybe the lame duck congress won't get in an agreement to spending and david is right. what i'm hearing from market strategists the u.s. has time relative to italy and other countries completely under the hammer right now. i'll remain mildly optimistic. >> i will say everyone wants us to hold their money, that's for sure, because you look at bond yields. we are still the least terrible place in the world to invest your money. >> that can change very quickly. >> you are right. >> gloria borger, thanks so much. david walker and jean zahaedy. why some say extending unemployment benefits could hurt efforts to get americans back to work. that's next on "your money." ♪ we're centurylink... a new kind of broadband company committed to improving lives with honest, personal service, 5-year price lock guarantees and consistently fast speeds. ♪ and who ordered the yummy cereal? 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[ male announcer ] want great taste and whole grain oats that can help lower cholesterol? honey nut cheerios. there's the headline, unemployment crisis and the brutal numbers to back up it up. the unemployed can expect to be out of work for nine months but a bin combination of state and federal benefits are available up to 99 weeks, that's up to two years bob herbert is a distinguished senior fellow, casey mulligan is a professor at the university of chicago. casey, on one hand the length of unemployment is hitting a record but the length of unemployment benefits also hitting a record. you hear a lot of people say there's a reason for that. as long as you keep giving out unemployment checks, people will continue to take them. >> yeah, some people will continue to take them, that's for sure. we've got to remember, there's still about 140 million people working this week. but that's right. there's several million people who are collecting unemployment because they are not working. >> but there is this feeling, and bob i want to bring you in on this, the unemployment check, the actual unemployment check is making people stay home and not get a job. there are others who say -- you say there aren't enough jobs for everyone. that's the problem. >> i think there is some research that shows there is a modest effect on the job search. so there's a small percentage of people who might take a job, if they were not on unemployment. but it's very modest from everything that i've read and interviewed about. the important thing is that the unemployment check is a lifeline to so many individuals and families. it helps people meet the mortgage or pay the rent. in some cases it's actually necessary to put food on the table. you have to weigh the cost and the benefits there. and i think i would come down very solidly on the idea of we have to continue these unemployment benefits and not just unemployment benefits but the extended unemployment benefits. >> casey, you think it's time -- 99 weeks is too much? >> 99 weeks is too much. let's not forget that unemployment benefits are not the only part of the safety net and not the only part of the safety net that has gotten more generous over time. they have food stamps, you have medicaid, you have mortgage forgiveness. there's a whole bunch of programs that have led to a much larger safety net than we ever had in 2006 or 2007. i think going back to those good old days safety net wise, would give people -- still give them support but a reason to get back to work. >> you could argue why you have a bigger safety net, we have an economy than is worse than 2006. >> that's true. >> you might have people rioting in the streets, although we do actually, this is new york and that happened this week with occupy wall street. i want to read a letter from a viewer who is an executive recruiter in san francisco and she heard me on this very program say something to the effect of one of reasons why people aren't just going out there and getting a job, instead of going out on occupy wall street because there aren't enough jobs for people. she wrote to me, quote, she's an executive recruiter. people love unemployment checks. as long as they flow, people will remain out of work. she says the media and the left wing people are acting like there are no jobs. what a falsehood. there are jobs. bob, what do you say to a recruiter and people like this telling us there's not a jobs crisis. >> i've gone all over talking to people doing research for my book on this who are unemployed and families who are struggling in this economic downturn and i have to tell you there is no one that i've encountered who is not desperate, unemployed, not desperate for work. they are out there. it makes people crazy, there's a psychological impact and obvious economic impact. even in our daily lives, the people we know, there's hardly anyone that you can think of who would prefer to be unemployed rather than actually have a job. >> casey, i want to go back to something you said. we were talking about, i said the safety net is bigger because, you know, the economy is a lot worse now than in 2006. you said no, you were disputing that. tell me why. >> well, if -- i agree that if we had the unemployment systems say that we had in 2006, that that system would be spending more money today because of unemployment. i agree with that. but what's also happened is we changed the 26 weeks into 70 weeks or 99 weeks. and that's a change in the rules, making it more generous. not just a program that has to deal with more people but a program that is expanded its insclugs and included more people. and that's true across the board in safety nets. >> the long-term unemployment issue is at a record. this time it is different in that we have more people out of work for so much longer and even the fed chief and others said all of these folks out of work for six months, the game has changed for them. do you agree for them, once they've been out of workforce for six months, it's so much more difficult to get back in. do they need that cushion? >> definitely the cushion is something that's good for them, it's good for them. the question is whether it's good for our economy and good for our taxpayers and how do you balance those things. as i said, i'm in favor of a safety net but not one who has gotten so tremendously generous relative to what seemed to work a few years ago. >> last comment to you, bob. >> i think if we cut back on unemployment benefits, there's going to be an awful lot of additional suffering in this country. i'm not sure as a society we want to go there. >> all right. bob herbert and casey mulligan, have a great weekend, guys. >> take care. at the two-month mark have the occupy wall street protests really accomplished anything? that's next. there goes dwayne's car. oh, man. there goes dwayne's house. whoa! whoa! and there goes dwayne. man, that thing does not like dwayne. 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[ male announcer ] get to a better state. nice landing. it was. ♪ ♪ ♪ when your chain of supply ♪ goes from here to shanghai, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ chips from here, boards from there ♪ ♪ track it all through the air, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ clearing customs like that ♪ hurry up no time flat that's logistics. ♪ ♪ all new technology ups brings to me, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ occupy wall street demonstrators were evicted from camping out in zuccotti park this week. two months in, the movement may be picking up steam with mass rallies across the country, including a number of tense interactions with police. i'm joined by carmen wong ullrich author of the real cost of living and poppy harlow and pete dominic, host of sirius xm. two months in, i can remember saying it's the third day now of protests on wall street and that was the longest single protest i had ever seen. are you surprised how long it lasted? >> i'm not surprised at all. i think it will become something much more different. the most important thing that has come out of this, awareness, we have had more front page stories in the past two months than in the past ten years. paul ryan put out a memo, the most staunch conservative. >> congressman from wisconsin. >> every man for himself, put out a memo called "a deeper look at inequality" and used the phrase corporate welfare needs to end and awareness. we talked about debt and deficit. people are talking about jobs and wealth gap in this country and that's what this is about. >> the first day of occupy wall street, my first reaction, what took everybody so long? what took so long? it took basically seeing that we are entrenched in this, this is no the a recession we're going to pop back out of like the previous over the past 20 years. we're entrenched. changes need to be made. when i hear criticism about no focus, no leaders, no demands. that's not the point. there's a statement being made. this is the thing, we're talking about a lot of issues that need to be talked about for the general good of everybody because we have a system that's obvious. >> we have reached a turning point. it will either energize and move the movement forward or in the eyes of public officials this thing has changed and elements who have gotten in there, i think in a couple towns, there's a camouflaging, criminals camouflage, that's hurting it. it hurts it. >> i've spent a lot of time down at occupy wall street, there in the middle of the night and the police raid on tuesday night and from every person every person i heard that is part of the movement that is supporting the movement, it has galvanized the movement. it may be less central now in terms of location, but the constant message was, it is not about a place. it is about an idea, it is about a message, it is about the conversation that it has started. >> what is next? what's next for it? >> mayor bloomberg made a huge, huge, great move for the movement. mayor bloomberg who made insane remarks about what caused the financial collapse saying it was congress, he helped change this -- transform this movement by kicking them out. now it is going to become something much more different, just in time for the weather, by the way. >> i think there say platform. they created their own platform. when our cameras, cnn's cameras, i could not get past the police barricades for three hours for the whole eviction, they were live streaming it. and there was citizen journalism on the ground. we were on the air with you reporting it on the phone when we couldn't show it, but they could show it on the web. that's their platform. >> congressmen are saying, come on, most people look at this and say what is a drum circle going to do. you don't get change by sitting in the dirt. people on right just dismiss it. >> that's like throwing firebombs, well, look over there, look over there. here's point. people are upset and want something to be done about it. for every with one person through the on wall street, you have another 10,000, 100,000 people that feel the same way. they can't afford to be there because hopefully they have a job and they're working. the voices out there, this will continue to live online in social media, in the media. it is not going to go away. if anything, it is contagious and global so it is going to grow. >> there is going to be marches. i disagree with what you said, the people on the right dismiss this. a lot of people on the right do, but a lot of people on the right share this 99% branding is bril yapt. n it is not liberal, it is not conservative. the financial system has been warped and rigged for the financial view for far too long. >> there has to be some sort of consistent message. it doesn't have to be one message, but some sort of consistency. >> don't go away. we have more it talk about. black friday or black thursday or black wednesday or january 2nd we'll start shopping for the next christmas. early bird shoppers grow in numbers each year, do we need to be rushing out to spend thanksgiving at the mall? 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[ male announcer ] it's practically yours. but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a jetta. that's the power of german engineering. get zero first month's payment, zero down, zero security deposit and zero due at signing on any new volkswagen. visit vwdealer.com. all right, get ready for black friday on thursday. walmart will open some stores at 10:00 p.m. on thanksgiving eve, evening. toys "r" us, 9:00 p.m. some will open at the stroke of midnight. i want your 30 second take. i think it is a retail machine, we're all driven to go. i think that quite frankly the prices are going to be cheaper again by the end of the year. carmen, you're the expert on the price. >> the prices are going to be much cheaper. i'll sit in my jammies and shop. this is a sport. this is a culture, a phenomenon, it is a sport. my sister-in-law does this. but she goes and she goes out in the middle of the night after thanksgiving and it is a sport. retailers know this. last year, the projected numbers were almost half of the actual numbers of shoppers. folks are really out for the bargains. folks are really out for the bargains. this is a sport to see who can be the best extreme shopper. >> the industry wants us to think everyone is going to be doing it. >> extreme couponing. >> i think what we're missing is that people like to shop the weekends. the malls are packed on the weekends. this is a friday that a lot of americans are getting off. one reason why it is packed is they have the day off to get the shopping done. >> i think it is sacred. i think it is thanksgiving holiday, it is about family, a little football here and there, go vikings. it is not about -- it is not about -- >> enough. how dare you? >> i'm just saying not everybody -- >> in this day and time, shouldn't this show us that our economy is way too reliant on consumer spending and as one consumer told us, the stores are getting desperate, they're opening up earlier, that's one person's opinion. >> this is a dream land, okay. >> i love my dream land. >> i'm telling you, right now everybody is about the bargains. if you're not in the top 1% buying all the great stuff at saks, you're going, i'm going to get the best deal if it means no sleep for two days and they're going to stand in line. >> they're going to try to trick you. they're not going to give you something for nothing. >> i think people go out, they think they're going to get this good deal and spend too much money and end up with a holiday hangover anyway. >> maybe they have been saving all year for these days. i'm amazed that poppy is admitting on air that she hates christmas and loves football and thanksgiving so much. i would never do it. i'll be in my jammies shopping online, but for a lot of people, it is about tradition. >> what companies are willing to mark down that they'll lose money on, so you buy more of things you don't need. >> i did grow up going with my grandma, my mom and my aunts, full disclosure, but it was different then. nobody was getting trampled at the front door. there wasn't this feeling like if you missed out on that door buster that you somehow failed. it was more like a family sport for us. >> they should listen to us and all the tips we give about shopping online and making sure you get the best price in reality. >> what about pushing it so early, though? coming in on thanksgiving. there was a guy that works at a target who signed a petition, 79,000 people said don't make us come on thanksgiving night to get ready for black friday. >> how many of us worked through high school and college, every single -- >> you had to work? you know how many people would love to be working? >> please don't give me that. i understand the shopping may not be good, but if you're working, you are working, good for you. >> all right, shop for -- only buy it if you can afford it and need it. >> what do people need? what are they buying? i think we're branding a whole new segment for poppy. >> i was raised that holidays are about family and religion. is this just lame? >> i think there is some coal in somebody's stocking that somebody wants to admit to. >> all right, everybody. thanks so much. poppy, you guys are hysterical. thank you for joining this week on "your money." we're here every saturday 1:00 p.m. eastern, sunday at 3:00. check out my new book with ali velshi "how to speak