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special counsel's office is doing to hold trump accountable for trying to overturn the 2020 election. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. so, barack obama ran on hope and change. ronald reagan professed it is mourning in america, but donald trump, the head of the 2024 presidential election, essentially his campaign around, let's just say, a different kind of theme. one that is much darker. it is retribution. in an interview with univision this week -- if he is elected in 2024, he will use the federal government to punish his critics, weaponize the fbi and doj and the same way he falsely claims federal law enforcement agencies have been weaponized against him. quote, what they've done is they've released the genie out of the box, the former -- don't know what that means, it's usually out of a bottle, but whatever. mixing metaphors, but making his intentions clear. >> if i happen to be president, and i see somebody who's doing well and beating me very badly, i say, go down and indict them. mostly, with that would be -- you know, they would be out of business. they'd be at. they'd be out of the election. >> donald trump's campaign team trying to clean up afterwards, claiming trump didn't mean what he said, but this is not a one-off mistake. it is part of a well documented trend with the ex president. last week reporting from jonathan carl's new book detailed how behind closed doors, trump has actually mused about prosecuting his enemies. the difference now is his openly stating, without equivocation, that this is indeed his plan. and what's more, he not only wants to target people like joe biden and laetitia james, the latter of which he called to be prosecuted just this week, but even former allies are now in his crosshairs. anyone who hasn't shown absolute funding loyalty in perpetuity. according to the washington post, trump has told advisers and friends in recent months that he actually wants the justice department to investigate one-time officials and allies who have become critical of his time in office, including, but not limited to, is former chief of staff john kelly, and former attorney general bill barr, as well as his ex attorney ty cobb, and former joint chiefs of the half, mark milley. this is less mob boss behavior than out an oat cult leader dictator behavior, which is fitting when you remember that trump literally launched his 2024 bid in waco, texas. yeah. that waco. where precisely 30 years prior to his campaign event, fbi agents and texas law enforcement laid siege to an armed religious cult known as the branch davidians. it was led by a -- far-right icon david koresh. and reminiscent of carafes, donald trump -- made it clear that all of his followers should be part of this retribution campaign when he said, quote, they're not coming after me, they're coming after you. we cannot dismiss trump's threats and desires as just words or rhetoric, because he's actually followed through before, targeting former fbi officials peter strzok, lisa cage, all four, in his eyes, working against him to undermine his presidency. if he ruined the professional lives of a handful of federal employees for simply doing their jobs and daring to criticize him, think about what he'll do two americans that he believes are, quote, traders. joining me now are former democratic senator barbara boxer, renee graham, opinion columnist and associated editor at the boston globe -- former federal prosecutor, and an msnbc legal analyst. ladies, it's great to have all three of you with us. senator, i'll start with you, if i may. you know, back in 2016, trump's slogan was make america great again. it could've been construed positively, if you will, depending on who you are and if you didn't know the history of that slogan. this time around, less ambiguity, more extremism. >> absolutely. it's the politics of grievance. it's dangerous. it's a page out of the fascist times in europe that i was born around that time. and it is most frightening. and you know, i remember i got to the senate in 1993, and that was the siege that took place in waco. and if anyone just wants to look up what waco is known for, it is known for david caressed taking this group of people who followed him -- he was a cult later. they had a lot of children, and i don't mean to shock people, but i'm telling you the truth, that his wife was 14 years old, and he said he had the right to have children, and the words he did. as young as ten. so this is what was going on, and it was a dark chapter in history. the last thing i'll say now is when he talks retribution, you should look up the definition. he says he's gonna deliver punishment to your enemies, america. so you're afraid of immigrants taking your jobs? i'll take care of it. you don't like equal rights? you want to keep women in their place? you don't like books? i mean, this is a frightening time. but i do believe that the soccer moms and the mainstream american public will see through it. >> rene, what's to take? i think the danger in the retribution rhetoric is not just for those that are sitting on the sidelines and detained by trump's rhetoric and threats against political opponents. but to senator boxer's point, it's the people out there who are saying that retribution now is what we should be doing. and going in taking matters into their own hands to anyone but they perceive to be a threat. as donald trump said, they're not coming after me, they're coming up to you. i'm just standing in the way. and now, these people out there that may follow him, maybe a part of his cult, will turn around and go out and seek retribution in his name. >> well, i think some things that important to remember is that very line. they're not coming after me, but coming after you. that's something donald trump said when he was still president. he was saying that in 2019, during his first impeachment trial. so that's always what that's been about. and what i think is very shocking to me is that even after an insurrection, even after hateful rhetoric during his presidency that in prior -- inspired violence out of pittsburgh, synagogue, at a walmart in el paso, even at two mosques in new zealand, there are still people who somehow deleted themselves into thinking that this is all just really empty talk. you know, he's never pulled the trigger, but his rhetoric already has a body count. and he's trying to add to that. i don't know that there's never been a time in american history that there's been a presidential contender whose entire platform is based on retribution and vengeance. and something we have to also be very mindful of is that when he speaks about his perceived enemies as thugs, and as furman, he's not just echoing the vernacular of authoritarians. he's dehumanizing those who have wronged him. and when you dehumanize people, it is easier to treat them -- >> good point about the dehumanization we see time and time again. trump's justifying his retribution by saying biden, quote, released the genie out of the box. that biden targeted him first, and now he set the precedent -- [inaudible] fani willis, who we should note is a county official in a district in virginia, not someone who works for the federal government, and jack smith, who is an independent special prosecutor. >> you're absolutely right, ayman. and let's take the state prosecution side of it, because they don't report to the department of justice. they are state prosecutors. so even if merrick garland, the attorney general, wanted to -- he has no authority to do that. so let's take him out of the equation. but when you listen to what donald trump is saying, it's hard not to have the reaction, what are we even talking about? but let's acknowledge first that the constitutional structure that puts the department of justice in the executive branch has, time and time again, caused some problems. because whenever the president or the presidents family, or the presidents political opponents, or a member of the presidents cabinet or staff as being investigated for committing a crime, it does create an inherent conflict of interest. and the department of justice and the courts and the administrations, over time, have struggled with that. so we've had independent prosecutors, we've had special counsel's, we've had policies about who at the white house can talk to whom, and in very limited fashion at the department of justice about criminal investigations. we've seen the struggles and how to deal with his inherent conflict of interest. but we have never had before as a leading candidate from one of the two major parties promising to use the department of justice in a way to take retribution. it's simply astonishing. he is running on that platform, and he's running on a platform of fear, saying if they're coming after me, but coming after you. so, let's think about what should a true future leader of a democracy have said, even if he's convinced that he's been wronged by a prosecution that is -- i've been wrong, and this will never ever happen in my administration. instead, he was 180 degrees the opposite. -- it just shows that this is not heading in the right direction. this is not the man who should be the leader of the free world. >> renee, what is the last hope here to stop donald trump from being able to exact his retribution not only on his perceived political enemies, but also as we saw this week, against his allies? revenge against his allies? john kelly, bill barr, even people who served for him in a nonpartisan way like the joint chiefs of staff? is it going to be the law, or is it going to be the elections? >> i'll take either at this point. you know, i was -- simply say this is unacceptable. i really hope that people aren't gonna sit this one out. i feel like the last probably three elections have been the most important in our lifetime. this is on a whole other level when you start talking about that, given the things that donald trump is saying. so i really want him to be rebuked by the voters. but if it comes down to prosecution, i'll happily take it. >> senator, a new piece in the new york times lays out trump's plan for expansion -- immigration if he returns to power in 2025. it reportedly includes rounding up undocumented people already in the united states, detaining them in sprawling campsites while they await to be expelled or deported. your reaction to this reporting? >> it sounds like a page out of the fascist playbook. and, you know, we all know it happened when families were separated. look, we've got issues at the border. we need a surge, you know, the resources to the border and take care of it. people have a right to have a hearing. -- if they don't, yes. you handle them in the right way. but, we all know what's in his heart. his ugliness, it's horrifying. and he even wants to say that even though it's in the constitution, if you're born here, but your parents weren't born here, you can lose your citizenship. i mean, this man is a threat to america. -- >> we're gonna talk to you later on in they are. up next, i'm speaking with the chair of the congressional progressive caucus, pramila jayapal, for her reaction to republicans last-ditch attempt to try to avoid a government shutdown. but before that, richard lui is here with the headlines. >> good evening to. you see breaking news in texas, at least five people would transported to local hospitals but before that, richard lui is here with the headlines. >> good evening to. you see breaking news in texas, at least five people would transported to local hospitals after a shooting at a flea market and houston. but suspect is still at large, there's no word on the conditions of those victims. u.s. military says it conducted strikes on targets in eastern syria for the third time this month. the pentagon says the strikes were in response to attacks on u.s. personnel in iraq and syria. new details about the fbi investigation into new york city mayor eric adams. authorities are looking into whether -- pressured city officials to approve the turkish government 's high-rise consulate building despite safety concerns in 2021. adams has not been accused of any wrongdoing. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin after the break. my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, 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do you think that there will be enough support for this plan among your democratic colleagues to prevent a shutdown? >> well, a man, it is good to see you. i have no idea. we just saw this plan today five days before the government is shut to shut down. it is a laddered cr, whatever that means. it has come to mean that apparently we are going to divide federal government operations into two. we are going to have to fiscal cliffs that we are going ton jay according to this. i do not know where this is going to go. we will stay united behind our leader, hakeem jeffries. i think that we are all looking at it, i think the senate is looking at it and trying to understand. it is unprecedented to divide government funding into two deadlines. i do not understand what the point of that is. i will say that there is a clean continuing resolution. that means that there are not any poison pills, or at least that is what they tell us. we have to see the full language and really understand it in senate. that is what they are saying. if that is the case, at least it does not mean that they are trying to push through a big cut to government spending. it is just outrageous that we are still in this position five days before the government is said to shut down. again, they are passing ridiculous appropriations bills that can never get passed on the senate. i think that all of us feel frustrated that we have wasted so much time, and apparently we are going right down to the line again. >> this is mike johnson's first big test as a speaker. from anything and from everything that you have seen, do you think that he is up to the moment? >> mike came in with me, speaker johnson came in with me. we both came in together. we actually worked on some things together, we worked on getting a program funded that started here in seattle. we took it national, it was called law enforcement assistant diversion. i have some good interactions with speaker johnson. he is smart. he has got the same dynamic as one of my colleagues said, this is same menu different weight, or ayman. he's got the same dynamics that kevin mccarthy had before him. he has got to be in a situation where he is going to need democratic help in the house, probably to pass anything. do not forget that we have a democratic senate and democratic white house. i think that he is probably trying to figure out what the path forward is. that is probably why, if there are no cuts, that is probably why. he realizes that he doesn't need democratic help. it is still the same dynamics of a republican party that is riven by chaos. and torn apart inside, continuing to have their own civil war. >> to that point, let me just ask. have the fundamental ideological rifts between the party that brought down kevin mccarthy over this, have those been resolved? are we just waiting for them to resurface yet again in the final days and hours? i think that matt gaetz early on was clear about if kevin mccarthy, the speaker at the time, would've gone through with his cr at the time. he was going to vote for his removal. he followed through on that. is that threat looming large over a mike johnson this week? >> i think that it is looming. i do think that mike, speaker johnson will have a little bit of leeway. he just came in after a complete chaos for weeks and weeks. the republican party knows that they cannot have that happening again. i do think that they have got a little bit more leeway. he is also from the freedom caucus side of things. i do know from talking from mike, friends of the freedom caucus that they like that he is speaker. they are not going to try to get rid of them in the same way that they word kevin mccarthy. there are moderates now, or more moderate republicans i should say. i do not think that many people are moderate on that side anymore. people that are in tough swing districts that do not want the freedom caucus agenda, and know that they cannot win their districts if that is what speaker johnson puts forward. they are also starting to rise up and say, wait a second, it's not just about the freedom caucus, it's about all of us. we do need to do things that are not ridiculous, which is why you saw two bills this last week that pulled from the floor after they were put up for a vote. that is very unusual, as you know. typically, speakers do not put a bill up on the floor unless they can get the votes for it. he had to pull two bills because they could not get the votes for it. >> definitely not a good look for somebody still knew on the job trying to exert a little bit of control and power over his caucus. let me, if i can, congresswoman, as we expand the conversation to two important points. early this, week we saw major redemption, mostly with reproductive rights. broadly speaking, what are the most important lessons and takeaways to carry forward in 2024? especially as we are seeing these weaker polls, poll numbers for president biden? >> the most important thing is that people across this country do not want the gop extreme agenda. they do not want a nationwide abortion ban. they do not want restrictions, right on reproductive freedoms. they believe that the government should stay out of their bedrooms, and it is still motivating for people across the country. i do think that that is one of the most important things. i do think that will continue to be a defining factor. as you know, ayman, i also don't think that we can take our base voters for granted, and particularly young people and folks of color across the country. they are reacting right now to the war in the middle east. we are going to be very important for our electoral success in 2024. i think that we have to keep our pedal to the metal. they cannot get complacent and think that abortion is going to save us. it is certainly going to help us. it is not going to save us, and we have to make sure that we are paying attention to our base voters. >> speaking of the middle east, i wanted to get your thoughts on how president biden has been handling this war. very few members of congress have been calling for a cease-fire. you are among those that are now calling for one. we are seeing growing calls internationally. the french president, calling for -- even people from within the administration on the civil that side of things putting pressure on the administration to call for a cease-fire. why do you think that that has not happened yet? why do you think the administration is reluctant to call for a cease-fire? do you think that the political pressure that is starting to emerge from some of these sweep states like michigan, perhaps georgia and elsewhere, may get the white house to recalibrate on this issue? >> ayman, i called for a cease fire after october 17th. that was at that time where there were 6000 palestinians that had been killed. today, we are up to over 11,000, 40% of those are children. we are seeing hospitals and health centers being targeted. the u. n. says the 23, including the two largest al-shifa and quds that are targeted by israeli airstrikes. the pictures are absolutely devastating. i know that what hamas did on october 7th, we both know that was horrific. it was a terrorist attack, israel has the right to defend itself. you cannot substitute one war crime for another war crime. the reality is that the united states is the largest backer of military aid for israel. if israel is not willing to do what we are asking israel to do, which is follow international humanitarian law. in my mind, it is clearly not doing that. i think that it's time for us to say that we are not supporting offensive military support for israel. i think that it is ludicrous to say that we cannot control what israel does. it might be true that we cannot control the ultimate thing that israel does, but what we can control is our involvement in military equipment that is being used to bomb gaza. that is just not acceptable. for those people that think that this is some solution to ending hamas, i will just say that experts, and that's why i wanted to come on your show, it ayman, you are so knowledgeable about the subject. there is no chance that we are going to achieve the goals that even the united states, israel, everybody wants to see, which is the hostage's returned. hamas disabled, and humanitarian aid into gaza, and a forward process for israel and palestine to live -- the palestinians, to live side by side with security. that is not going to happen with this approach, and it needs to change. the united states is increasingly isolated from the rest of the world. it is time for us to call for a cease-fire. i do hope that the biden administration understands all of the repercussions and ramifications of continuing to support israel without any conditions. i think that it is very severe. internationally and domestically. >> and to your point, as many people have pointed out, it's one thing to defeat an organization, it is another thing to try to defeat an ideology. congresswoman camille jack paul, i really appreciate all of your insights this evening. thank you. >> thank you so much, we ayman. >> after the break, we will go inside of jack smith's new claim to force, donald trump's taking the stand in the federal case. stay with us. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ >> welcome back, everyone. we have some breaking news to share with you. just moments ago on another network, we got word that south carolina senator tim scott has dropped out of the 2024 presidential race. he is now the latest member of the republican field to suspend his campaign after the likes of mike pence and others. let's bring into the conversation hour nate graham, as well as former senator barbara boss castle. surprising but not surprising as we see this field to continue to whittle down. never really seemed to get off of the ground there, all in a group brief moment, renee, where some people thought he could be a viable option because he's a senator. not the far-right extremists part of that country. at the same time, didn't really register with the majority of the base that included the maga extremists that support donald trump. >> his campaign never got traction. tim scott could never decide where it was he was supposed to be. in some ways, he is trying to present himself as a kinder and gentler candidate that was going to be very conservative. he was not going to dip into the kinds of things that donald trump had been talking about. he did understand the party was part of it, some of those that supported trump quite often. he never had a lane that could work for him. i thought that he might last maybe until december. i guess there is basically no point. he never could get out of single digits. >> what do you make of this announcement, barbara? it is not something that, i would say is surprising, to renee's point, never gained traction. even if there were those they were trying to coalesce around him and try to breakthrough, his campaign was kind of bogged down by very weird parts of the republican party wanting to know whether tim scott had a girlfriend or not, or if he was married. if he was, or not, why was he not where married? all of the innuendos that involved that? >> oh, brother, i agree with renee. her analysis is very good. he also had nikki haley from the same state. that is tough. your base, she was kind of catching on more by going more head to head with some of the others. you know, i think that the thing about tim scott is that he has this great personal story, which he loves to tell people. he paints this picture that kind of makes everybody feel like, oh my god, what's wrong with me? i couldn't do it. i'm in a minority, or i have a disability. why could i not make it? he cannot really talk about how it could be easier for people that have it hard in this country. it just did not catch on. i don't know why. >> what does his dropout mean, do you think renee, for the other republicans in the field? as you mentioned, nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy still in this race. it is clear that none of them are going to dislodge donald trump from the front runner position. why are they still in the race? more importantly, with tim scott out of the race, does that have any impact whatsoever on any of the other candidates? not that he was polling significantly, but do his followers, who are they likely to go after next? >> i think that most likely it will be nikki haley. the south carolina thing is going to be nikki haley, she is going to benefit from ten scott being out of the race. it is very interesting. again trump could not figured out, they could not figure out how to breakthrough. this is the race for number two. it is highly unlikely that anybody is going to be the nominee other than donald trump. it gets tim scott out of the way and drills down now under the wing rhonda sanchez and nikki haley. mike pence jumping out did not really help anybody. it did not help tim scott. i think that it's more manageable for what he needs in this race. i think that it is going to be the attention on nikki haley and ron desantis. >> senator, what, if any impact does this have on any candidates? do any of the other candidates try and pick up some of those voters? is there anything for them to say? is it, as we said earlier, just going through the motions and auditioning for a possible number two position? >> until we see something happened to the front runner, who is a danger to the country, unless something happens to him, i don't know. it is just going to continue on. i do agree that it's a south carolina parade. i would assume most to tim scott's support came from that state. because he is representing him, he is very well liked there. >> it seems like we are being told the tim scott is not going to weigh in on who people should endorse. i'm not sure if he is himself going to some point come out and adore someone. he might want to sit out as far as you possibly can. he has done what other republicans have done. he wants to embrace donald trump, or certainly trump-ism if not demand. i do not think that he made the distance between him and donald trump that a wide, renee. he was not a person who condemned donald trump, or maybe for a few very brief moments. he was not a person -- he fully embraced him at some points. >> every condemnation of trump with very mild, and came very late in the race. tim scott's whole thing was that i was the nice guy. he's probably going to get into the mud with donald trump or any other candidates they would have these weird fights with each other. he tried not to do that. again, it did not give him any place to be. it's like he didn't understand the party that he is part of. the ways that he completely embraced the things that his party was about. in not going against trump, he just so fell by the way to side. he just gave himself no place to be. i don't even know if that tim scott endorsement would make a difference at this point. he just never got traction. he never figured out what kind of candidate he needed to be. >> it would be interesting to see what he does do going forward from here. as we started this segment, with tim scott, the senator from south carolina dropped out of the race after just appearing on the debate stage on wednesday trying to make a full-throated attempt to win some votes. that does not seem to have worked. former senator barbara boxer, renee graham, thank you both for reacting to this breaking news. we appreciated. after the break, we will turn to the war in gaza overseas, and the growing calls for a cease-fire from the international community. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™. >> what do you think about the gaza cease-fire? >> we need to see a humanitarian pause that we can slow. hey i ceasing of the level of violence that we are seeing. >> this is the only solution that we have. the cease-fire. it is impossible to explain. we will have to fight against terrorism. by killing innocent people. >> while world leaders continue to debate the value of a cease-fire in gaza, the voices of hundreds of thousands of protesters demanding, getting louder by the day. this was the scene from london yesterday, where police estimated that some 300,000 people were out in the streets calling for a cease-fire. back here in the united states, president biden is facing internal pressure twos hardened his stance on a cease-fire. more than 1000 officials with the u.s. agencies for international development have now signed an open letter urging the biden administration to call for one immediately. earlier this week, more than 100 congressional staffers walked out with the very same demand on capitol hill. for his part, prime minister benjamin netanyahu continues to be a poster of cease-fire. here he is on msnbc the press earlier today. >> i want to be clear in what we agreed on and what we don't agree on. what we don't agree on is giving a cease-fire to hamas, with the exception of one intended for the release of our hostages. >> despite a cacophony of voices, biden and netanyahu appears to be on the same page on this heated issue. they are increasingly in the minority. joining me now to discuss this is ben rhodes, msnbc political contributor and former deputy of national security adviser to president obama. band, it's great to see you, thank you so much for making time for us. you just saw there the french president, emmanuel macron speaking out, arguably being the first western leader, if you will, coming out and saying categorically that we need to see a cease fire. that is explicit. are we going to see a change for some of these western world leaders? >> i think so. you have seen some other voices that have been certainly -- emmanuel macron carding for a cease-fire. for him to come out and i just call cease-fire, but frame it in the way that he did, which i think about what everyone feels about this throughout the world. that is first of all, very horror at this scale of civilian deaths that is taking place in gaza. also a sense in looking at this operation, looking at prime minister netanyahu, that there is not really an attempt from the israeli government of a willingness to fundamentally shift course when it relates to taking into account civilian deaths in the context of the military operation when it comes to things like the long term future of gaza. netanyahu's repeatedly disagreeing with president biden's suppression that israel should not operate in the west bank, and should not react by gaza. it should rather have the palestinian authority take control. netanyahu's batted that down, suggesting that israel needs to maintain security control over gaza. i think that that suggests somewhat an open-ended type of operation. what you have is a groundswell of public opinion, in lots of parts of the world, including the united states. that is not seeing an endgame that makes sense here, and is not seeing humanitarian policy day today, week to week as it goes on. frankly, i think that world leaders have continued concerns about escalation about this conflict spreading in the west bank, obviously spreading to other parts of the region with israel and lebanon, syria, yemen, potentially iran. there are lots of reasons why people are potentially counseling restraint. >> you bring up an interesting point. look, you can say a lot about what you want about the prime minister of israel. he is a great communicator in the sense that he can say these expressions, look, we don't want to control gaza, but we want security control of gaza. people like you that have said in these rooms where you actually ask, well what does that actually mean? what does that really mean when you ask the israelis, what does security control of gaza actually mean? if not occupying the gaza strip. what questions would you have a biden israeli counterpart saying to you if you are still serving in the administration, we intend to not only occupy gaza, but we will have this security of this trip indefinitely. >> first of all, prime minister netanyahu has been repeatedly clear that he's willing to above the advisory council of the u.s. president. because the u.s. has not been able to attach any conditionality of assistance, president biden is trying to mute any public difference. president netanyahu, even though the netanyahu has made himself. it clear -- he's going to do what he's going to do. the kind of questions that i would be asking, first of all, even before this military operation, israel already controlled everything that came in and out of gaza. whether it was people or people and goods. a blockade of gaza, and has been for a long time. for israel to be suggesting that prime minister netanyahu gets further control of the gaza strip, i wonder if that means a long term security presence. i wonder if it means israeli troops stationed inside of gaza. i wonder if it means repeated military operations going on in gaza. how are they going to evaluate their own objective of a destroying hamas, which is quite complicated given that a lot of that leadership is outside of gaza. and inside of gaza, you have 2 million people. the vast majority of them are not hamas. what is going to be their approach to determining who is the target and who is not? what we have seen thus far is, at times, relatively indiscriminate bombing. it suggests a lack of precision in terms of going after hamas and its military wing. are we going to see military aged males, what is the long term plan for 2 million people, and particularly given the fact that how many of these people are going to be homeless? we have already had a lot of structures destroyed within gaza. where are these going to people live? how are they going to live? who's going to govern? how is humanitarian aid going to get in? is there going to be a significant internationally backed reconstruction of gaza? is it going to be the limitations working into gaza, as say the past, where everything that has a potential dual use can't get in? these are the questions that have to be asked now. >> i have to ask you quickly about former president barack obama, who said in a recent interview on your podcast, if you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. you have to admit that nobody's hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree. a lot of people pounced on that, but i wanted you to respond to the criticism over that statement, or how you interpret that statement. i know that we don't have a lot of time, but i would love to get your thoughts on this former deputy national security adviser. >> i think that the response has been ridiculous. to tell you the truth, does anybody think that we collectively, successive american administrations, successive israeli governments, successive palestinian administrations, kennedy by the success that they handle this perfectly? it's an obvious statement to suggest that nobody has -- we ended up where we ended up, which is in the cycle of trauma and bloodshed and violence with a horrific hamas attack, and then israeli reprisals. the other thing is the due to the controversy with the word occupation, in describing the palestinian narrative after you describe the israeli narrative. i do not really know whether the terminology, which 11 would use with what the west bank has been for decades. the important point that i would make about the reaction of these comments is that we have to use honest language when we are describing these issues. on us language that meets both people where they are, both people have deep seated grievances. both people need vulnerabilities, israelis and palestinians. if we're not going to be honest about, that we will never solve this. >> that is the word, so many people were joined to, honesty. it is not that frequent that you can have an honest conversation about this. ben rhodes, i appreciate your time and your insight, thank you so much for joining us this evening. >> thanks. >> there is more ayman in just a moment, don't go anywhere. you deserve better than that. i'm hungry, i'm in a hurry, i don't have time to make anything healthy. you could if you had a blendjet. blendjet? it's the portable blender that makes the healthy choice the most convenient choice. i don't know. it seems like a hassle. hahaha! wrong. just pour in some milk, add some frozen fruit, and bam! you've got a nutritious and delicious smoothie. mmm! that is good. you're welcome, sad office guy. get yours today at blendjet.com are we in in an ad? we sure are. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ >> as the nation honors our veterans this weekend, msnbc films is debuting the latest installment of the turning point documentary series from executive producer trevor noah. tracing the u.s. military's long history of discrimination against the lgbtq community that follows one couples long journey from acceptance. >> one of the first things about don't ask don't tell is the isolation. >> at one point we had most democrats and republicans talking about how bad gay people are. >> it means hiding love. >> we saw what happens, it's got to stop. >> service members were treated as though they were criminals. >> compared to their tolerance, they said pride and respect. >> serving in secret premiers in just a few moments, right after the show at ten pm eastern, right here on this nbc. we will be right back. >> thank you for making time for us. don't go anywhere. serving in secret, love, country, and don't ask, don't tell begins right now on msnbc. it is also streaming on peacock. i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night. hello i'm andrea canning and this is dateline. >> your

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