show. i'm jonathan capehart. this week, we have marked indelible reflection points in the state of our democracy in the 2024 election. we watched a disastrous debate that has the nation fearing like never before another trump presidency. not going to lie. biden's performance was as horrific as it was sad. now democrats are in full panic mode for the president to bow out of ■çthe race for someone younger but donald trump's performance was as horrifying as it was terrifying. he put on a campaign rally filled with his usual avalanche of lies and failed threats. then on friday, the supreme court, the one with the 6-3 conservative supermajority thanks to trump's one term presidency handed out decisions further exhibits about why elections matter. it threw out a 40-year-old ruling that gave federal agencies the power to use their expertise to determine policy when the law is ambiguous. that will now be in the hands of the courts. the conservative supermajority ruled that eighth amendment protection from cruel and unusual punishment doesn't apply to the homeless arrested for sleeping in public spaces even when a community lacks indoor shelter and ■çits unhous residents have nowhere else to go. and that is the same supreme court that will let us know monday if a sitting president is immune from prosecution even if he orders the military to kill a political opponent. if trump wins the election in november, he could fill at least two supreme court seats as justices thomas and alito are sure to retire. making way for young equally conservative jurorrists who could turn the clock back on decades of rights that would make this country more just and more fair. harris said president biden should be judged on his masterful performance over the ç last three-and-a-half years. not 90 disastrous minutes. if republicans are standing lock step with a 78-year-old disgraced twice impeached four- times indicted on 88 counts and convicted on 34 felonies, former president found liable for fraud and sexual assault and is awaiting trial for trying to overturn the 2020 election and for refusing to return classified documents, then democrats should be standing lock step with their ethical and morally decent 81- year-old president who has a raft of bipartisan accomplishments many said he could never achieve and is presides over the strongest economy in the world. forcing him out of the race ■ç makes democrats look weak. why should they cast a ballot for biden if his own party goes into a full scale panic if he doesn't do everything perfectly every time. on the civil rights pilgrims i took with john lewis, always in attendance was betty may fikes, known as the voice of selma. i hear her voice singing out these words from a folk song with undeterred conviction. keep your eyes on the prize, hold on. and that's exactly what i'm going to do. joining me now, former federal prosecutor and senior writer at politico magazine. how a republican supreme ■çcour is reshaping america and charlie sykes. thank you all for being herement charlie, i'm going to start with you. because from what i understand, you don't agree with anything i just said. >> look, the reality is, that 50 million people saw what happened on thursday night and they are not going to unsee it. it was not just 90 minutes. it was a shocking moment that comes after years of doubts and speculation about joe biden's age. 86% of americans said they thought joe biden was too old. so at some point, we have to move ■çpast the denialism and gaslighting. if they need to have the conversation about two things. number one, you know, what is joe biden's condition? he should be judged on the four years of his presidency. but the 2024 election is not a gold watch. what he need to be judged on is can he prevent donald trump from getting back into the white house? and that's the question democrats have to ask themselves. they have to have this conversation. if there is not a plan b and i don't know if the democrats have a plan b, what ■çis lc? how do you fix this? how did going forward, how do you convince millions of swing voters that what they saw there was not disqualified? this election ought to be a referendum on democracy and a man who tried to overturn the election. and the mendacity and character of donald trump. this issue is not going away. >> charlie, i hear everything you are saying. i want to show you something the post editorial has the perfect editorial, considering the new york times is out there saying the president should bow out. now the atlanta journal is saying ■çthat the president should bow out. but the washington post editorial deals with real im. it says mr. biden bowing out would not guarantee a democratic victory in november. history does not provide any precise precedence. but it is notable that republican challengers prepailed in 52-68 after president truman and johnson opted not to seek reelection. the democratic convention descended into chaos and into protests over the war in vietnam. they ended up nominating humphey. it was michael steel who pointed out that if democrats do this, it is could lead to people thinking that donald trump is right. the democratic party ■çand particularly president biden's administration is chaotic and therefore, you should not entrust, you should not entrust the white house with democrats again. what do you make of that? >> i disagree with that argument and i also disagree with your argument that this debate we are having right now makes the democrats look weak. i agree with bryan klaus who writes in the atlantic, this is a sign of the political health of the democratic party. the democratic party is not a cult of personality. it understands what the stakes are here. which is again more of a sign of strength to say that you know what? we are not going to put one person ahead of the fate of the country and the constitution. and i think that it is a sign of that. i don't think it is going to happen. but an open convention ■çis not necessarily a complete meltdown convention. it could deliver a younger fresher face and quite frankly, donald trump i don't think wants that. >> charlie, maybe you are talking from utopia, but have you watched democrats? you actually think democrats will have a kumbayah moment and settle on one moment? that's the thing about this argument of an open convention. sure, whoever gets it will be younger than the incumbent president, but the battle to get that nomination if that were to happen is going to produce a bruised and broken nominee. i just think that this talk of having the president bow out of the race, it is guaranteeing ■ç that trump will be reelected. try to convince. try to convince me that i'm being overly pessimistic here. >> i was at the 1968 democratic national convention. i have seen a complete meltdown. this is why. i'll be honest with you. up until thursday, i was one of those who said it was pointless about moving on. this is what it is. you have to play the cards you have been dealt. but you started this show by pointing out the obvious that what happened on thursday night was a disaster. it was a terrible performance and either joe biden has to ■ç come up away of convincing swing voters that he is fit for another four years in office. or we have to have this conversation. there are no good scenarios unless you come up with a plausible plan c that it was a oneoff. 50million people watched it. and like everybody here and everybody watching this show right now, they and we were all shocked by what we saw. this is part of the credible probability. it is one thing that they are talking about donald trump's fitness for office. now it is axios, the new york times, the washington ■çpost. it will be the focus of conversation when the focus of conversation ought to be on the danger and lies of donald trump. that is how bad it is that we are not talking about donald trump's criminality. we are talking about this right now. >> let me play you some sound from dnc chairman jamie harrison who was on with reverend al sharpton. listen to this and we will talk about it on the other side. >> you hear the hand wringing coming from pundents, rev. and op eds like the new york times but you don't hear it from the people. what i have seen is a galvanization of support for joe biden. >> what do you ■çmake of that? because charlie, because, what he is saying there is while those of us in the chattering classes are trying to tap out the inferno on our respective heads, down on the ground it's just not that way. >> well look, as i mentioned before, every single poll has indicated the vast majority of americans are concerned about joe biden's age. so this is not just the chattering class. it is not just the political elite. the political class had decided this was a chance worth taking. they didn't think this was going to be disqualifying up until thursday. that is why you have this rethinking about it. and then again, i guess one of the questions that people are going to be asking is were we misled about this? who knew this was the problem that it was and how ■çdeep does it go? maybe there are good answers to this. that is a talking point. this was as you pointed out, this was an inflection point. this was a pivotal point. there is real panic so they will have to not pretend that it is only people in the media that are noticing this. we saw it with our own eyes. you cannot convince people what they saw with their own eyes did not happen. it has to be honest and in some ways kind of brutal to say all right. what are we going to do about this and how are we going to prevent donald trump from getting back in the white house. >> so charlie, i ■çwant you to stay with us. we will take a quick break. when we come back, congresswoman jasmine crock et. stay with us, you are watching the saturday show. the saturday. and doug. 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(elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ sup? -who are you? i'm your inner child. get in. ♪ ♪ [ engine revving ] listen. horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. ♪ ♪ [ engine revving ] oh now we're torquin'! the dodge hornet r/t. the totally torqued-out crossover. when you see what it's really like when our skin touches wool... you see why we need downy free and gentle with no perfumes or dyes. it not only makes your clothes softer, it is gentle on your skin. it breathes life into your laundry. - [narrator] life with ear ringing sounded like a constant train whistle i couldn't escape.. then i started taking lipo flavonoid. with 60 years of clinical experience, it's the number one doctor recommended brand for ear ringing. and now i'm finally free. take back control with lipo flavonoid. joining me now, congresswoman jasmine crocket of texas. thank you so much for comeing to the saturday show. i was having a spirited conversation with charlie sikes who disagrees with me. my opening statement basically telling democrats to buck up ■ç and stand behind the president. i have been thinking about this. obviously, you know, republicans will stand with it seems like the devil. it seems like they will get their disastrous policies in place, that's all they care about. this election should be about them as individuals and they should be voting not for the exact person, but the team. they need to be looking at who can control the house. who can control the senate as well as the white house. and what types of policies as ■ç it pushes forward. finally, i ultimately decided this is like cough syrup. nobody really likes the taste of cough syrup but at the end of the day, they take it because it is what they need to heal their bodies. right now, this country need to be healed and they will not find healing if they decide to deal with donald trump. but they will find healing if they decide that they want to give this administration another four years. so that hopefully, we may have an opportunity to get a better supreme court. we may have an opportunity so long as we get the house to go ahead and get another child tax credit passed to make sure that there is going to be a housing stipend passed so that people can go ahead and move into new homes and things like that. >> congresswoman, the new york times has called on the president to bow out of the race. just this afternoon, before we came ■çon the air, the atlanta journal constitution called on the president to bow out of the race. what are you hearing from fellow members of congress about whether the president should drop out? is there even a hint of a ground swell that he should leave the race? >> i don't think there is. and you know what? what is so frustrating for me, jonathan, you know better than almost anyone that most people came to know me when i fled the state of texas over voting rights. what we have to think about is subvert the will of the people. the people have spoken and this is their democratic nominee. to do anything else at this point in time, basically we say forget what those people did because of what some pundents decided and what the ■çnew york times thought we should do. that is not what we do in a democracy. we don't just replace someone because there was a feeling there was a 90-minute situation that wasn't his best day. if i'm real, it wasn't his best day. but here's the deal. this man has given us so many amazing and incredible days of his life for almost 50 years. the fact we want to delete that because of a 90-minute performance in which his opponent did not perform well. he just kept talking the whole time. he didn't answer half the questions and the other half he did answer, he was lying about. but that is not what we are talking about. instead, people want to talk about our president who has performed in extraordinary ways. history will look back and talk about the record of joe biden and it is ■çgoing to be one of positivity. >> all right, congresswoman crocket, i want to bring in the two gentlemen who have been sitting here since the talk of the show. gentlemen, we were talking during the break. and i didn't come to you during my conversation with charlie because i figured you guys were on here to talk about the court rulings but you have thoughts on both the president's debate performance and this talk of dumping president biden from the ticket or the president dropping out of the race. >> the debate was not good. it was not a good performance. however, i have to say all these scenarios about him being replaced, they sound like ■çwes wing fan fiction to me. comission by omission. the media, aligned with the party. they made their decision by comission and omission months if not years ago. it is a practical matter. i don't see how they could switch him out. the one thing i would say to people who are saying it was such a shock to see joe biden, i don't think those people have been paying close enough attention to the president's schedule and to his public appearances. when rob herr issued his report identifying possible cognitive deficiencies on the president, joe biden went out and gave ■ça impromptu press that night. >> i disagree with that. only because he mistakingly said the president of mexico versus another president. there was news made that was ignored. everyone focused on how he slipped up. >> i will give some advice to the biden campaign. i want her on the tv shows, kamala harris. she famously loves to cook. i want her on cooking shows. if there is a sports team she is interested in, i want her on sports shows. we need to make the american people very comfortable with kamala harris for ■çtwo reasons one is that i think after last night, a lot of people are reasonably asking does joe biden, a man who has served his country honorably 50 years have four more years in him. if he does not, what the biden campaign needs to do is reassure folks that the person who will be his caretaker is someone they are comfortable with. the second reason is the idea of a brokered convention is a fantasy. the delegates weren't elected. we have already chosen who takes over for joe biden if he is unable to do the job. and that is kamala harris. if they do have to swap him out, she's in. >> 100%. >> we were talking about this ■ç before we came on here. the president cannot serve in this capacity. it is called having a vice president. it is called having a vice president. what people are talking about in terms of instituting a new ticket is inserting someone else in the line of succession. >> and you know, ian, i agree with you. vice president harris should be out there in our faces. the only quibble i have is the vice president is out there every day. everyone in the media gets her schedule. she has been out west all this week. what needs to happen is that my colleagues in the press need to cover her. exactly for the ■çreasons you a talking about. it is an excellent one to make sure the vice president of the united states is out front and center so that people and that folks in my profession cover her in the way that they should as a vice president. so folks get comfortable with her. >> i hear you and i absolutely agree. number one, the vice president has been keeping a very intense schedule. doing amazing work. as a black woman who was elected in this country, i always feel like we still kind of come back to this very same thing. she has to do more than anybody else has ever had to do. was this a question for any other vice president that came before her? she is ■çthe vice president of the united states. we have lost presidents because they have been executed, are otherwise passed away. and the deal is there wasn't all of this let's insert somebody else. it is frustrating because again, there are different bars set for her. can you name five other vice presidents? because they really have always wanted her out front. the role of the vice president is to be a supporting cast member. at the end of the day, when we talk about comfortability, what we should be talk about is are we comfortable with the policies pushed. the republicans are pushing project 2025. so at the end of the day, do you want project 2025 or do youç want roe restored? do you want project 2025 or do you want affirmative action, diversity, equity, inclusion, do you want project 2025 or loyalists that will include having loyalists instead of those committed public servants who have always served in these capacities. there is a real danger to act as if this comes down to personalities, i need all of america to grow up and decide that they will choose what makes sense going forward in the country or we can have more of our freedoms taken away. >> in the less than a minute we have left, i want to hear you talk about ■çthe overturning of chevron deference. you said that was the most important case. but go on. >> it is an incredibly important case. and it continues a trend in which the republican appointees on the supreme court are getting more power to themselves and to judges throughout this country to second guess public servants. it will be bad across every dimension. it will be bad. >> ian? >> yeah. there are all sorts of decisions that congress has said should be made by experts. and you know, these are on all kinds of issues. every thing from who gets overtime pay to what your cable rates are. the justices don't know anything about cable rates. >> and more than that, there ■ç are tens of thousands of public servants who make these decisions. it takes a lot of work and research. the justices are nine people. they have 36 law clerks. they don't have the personnel to perform the task