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keep pushing forward with this, and there are a lot of other liars. to me, that's the weakness in the defense coming in. >> to point it out, it's 11:00 eastern, and 8:00 pacific right now. >> they did bring up the catch and kill -- >> yeah, and related it back to cohen. >> that specifically, duncan, the idea that catch and kill is not illegal. we have talked about that before and that's true. they brought out the testimony and he's bringing in during the argument other catch and kill instances, schwarzenegger, and others, and this is different. >> the reason it's different is catch and kill is not illegal and maybe it's a questionable journalistic technique but it's not illegal. prior to 2016, "the national enquirer" and donald trump never engaged in this together, and why is that? this is borne out by the testimony of david pecker, and then they talked to michael cohen about this, and the timing of it and the fact that it was taking place after the "access hollywood" testimony came out. the testimony from david pecker showed that the "national enquirer" was acting as an arm of the trump campaign, and catch and kill having to do with any other story, it's a questionable journalistic technique at best but it's not about sub verdicting an election and that's what the prosecution showed. >> that's what blanche said, the catch and kill goes way back, years before the election. now blanche is specifically saying, let's talk about the second catch and kill, ms. mcdougal, what he's saying, she did not want her story published, and she was not interested in selling her story. how is that a catch and kill? it is not, says blanche. her attorney said the same thing. it was not just one side, says blanche. her attorney told you he did not. again, it's not a catch and kill. her friend forced her hand, and to be clear it was not ms. mcdougal's intention to public her story. >> let's go to vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. >> reporter: i actually stepped outside the courthouse after being in there in the first hour in todd blanche's closing argument, and he's emphasizing to the jury that michael cohen should not be the trusted source, that they make the determination on the 34 felony counts. it's sort of a shift between the way in which he talked about the falsification of the business records allegation and making the case that there was no intent to defraud on behalf of his client, saying that not only did he tweet in 2018 about this arrangement, but also he noted in a 2018 ethics report, financial disclosure report that there were reimbursements made and also that the trump organization, they denoted the payments were made to michael cohen. so it will be up to the jury to determine beyond a reasonable doubt donald trump had the intention to defraud by making these business records. then turning towards the election fraud, the underlying crime being alleged by the prosecution, todd blanche was more dismissive when he made that pivot, saying what i am about to articulate to you doesn't even matter because you should acquit donald trump merely on the fact of the falls faction of business records allegations. you heard todd blanche making the case that this sort of arrangement, that august in 2015, it was not an unusual thing for a campaign, and what the prosecution will try and convince the jury of is there were unlawful actions taken to do that, and that's where todd blanche to the jury was trying to make it sound like, this is what happens with every campaign and with journalism, and "the national enquirer" is a media outlet, and of course mr. trump wanted to work with a news outlet to get positive headlines. he's using his opportunity in the closing arguments to paint donald trump as a sympathetic figure that just signed checks and was trying to win a campaign but had no unlawful intent behind his actions. >> let's bring in the former u.s. attorney and fbi official, and charles coleman, former prosecutor in new york, and a white-collar defense attorney and a former federal prosecutor. charles, as you see, what blanche has been doing for more than an hour, an hour and a half, what is your takeaway? >> i am not surprised. i think that now we are seeing this play out, it makes sense. you have to admit when you can't deny and deny what you can't deny. you can't deny trump's signature are on the checks and the catch and kill scheme existed, but you have to prove the intent beyond a reasonable doubt. that's where todd blanche is focusing his actual attacks. of course, everything that speaks to the intent, for example, the testimony of michael cohen, you will attack that as well to make the argument the facts are what they are, and you have to deal with that. as far as intent, which is what the jury has to look at to make a decision, that intent is going to be something they are going to hammer home as not something the prosecution is going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. that will be their roadmap, if you will, to get to a hung jury. >> david pecker was the first witness the defense called, blanche said he submitted a declaration under the penalty of perjury saying the agreement was lawful. he's talking about a prosecution agreement pecker made in this case with the prosecutors. he told you he didn't keep anything from his lawyers when he talked about it, and you know he has a deal with the prosecutors in the case and they provide him with immunity. blanche goe on, the d.a. gave the terms and if mr. pecker gave false testimony the agreement would be breached and you know mr. pecker is not being prosecute for anything, and none of it is criminal because it's true. your thoughts, katharine? >> he's doing what he has to do, as charles said. i have to say when i was a supervisor in the d.a.'s office, i watched trials and watched so many and because i was a invested in the summation, we don't know what the jury is thinking. i think starting out by saying he's a lawyer, and what happens when you pay a lawyer, those are legal expenses. piece by piece what blanche is doing, i call it the reasonable doubt offense. sort of picking, picking, picking, and you are hoping, again, for that one or two jurors who will say, yes, calling him president elect and reminding him that all 34 counts happened when donald trump was present, and whatever you think about him, he was the president of the united states. is the president of the united states really thinking about these checks? i think todd blanche is doing what he has to do and working with what he has, and when somebody has immunity for testifying, you will hammer that home. he's doing what the prosecution wants him to do. >> in that courtroom and courthouse, there are so many different possible outcomes, but there's also what is going on outside the courtroom, the courthouse, and the impact it's having. vaughn hillyard, you are with somebody who is on the outside but has something to say about what is going on inside. >> reporter: right. we have seen the biden campaign stay away from the lower manhattan courthouse over the last six weeks of the trial, but this morning was a little different. not only is robert de niro outside the courthouse speaking a few minutes ago, but also former capitol police officers are here, and can you articulate what your message was here by coming to new york on the closing days. >> i didn't even know the trump trial was going on, and i just saw the cameras and said let's get the message out. it's important to echo how much of a threat donald trump is to democracy. we have to -- the only way we stop that is at the ballot box in november by electing joe biden. >> reporter: you have taken active roles for the biden campaign, and you have had active roles in talking about the january 6th attack. why? >> i am here to use that experience that day, the traumatic brain injury and the heart attack at the hands of donald trump supporters inspired by his lies about the 2020 election, and what so many other police officers went through that day, simply doing their jobs and responding to the capitol and assisting other police officers and, again, experiencing brutal violence at the hands of donald trump supporters. >> reporter: we are looking at a federal trial over what happened in the january 6th attack in the next few months here, and when you look at the totality of your careers and watching what is unfolding here in lower manhattan, the criminal trial separate from the events of the 2020 election, what are your takeaways and why do you feel like it's important to connect these altogether? >> so yeah, i don't know the specifics of what is going on inside the courtroom right now. i do know institutions fail us. institutions are only as strong as the individuals that occupy those seats, and that's why it's so important right now to choose decency and the best president and the person for the job is joe biden. the people will have to win this. not these institutions for us. we can't count on the court to disqualify trump and it has to be the voters and i think we will in november. >> reporter: i have heard from a lot of allies from donald trump, his two sons are here, and his daughter, tiffany, is here today. you made a decision to come and speak out, and also with robert de niro here. can you give me the framework of how you are looking at the next five months, the roles you play in the broader biden campaign? >> i am incredibly grateful for robert de niro lending his celebrity and his voice to this cause. that being said, you know, i think that it's disheartening to know that that's what it takes 3 1/2 years after an insurrection at the capitol in which hundreds of police officers were brutalized and our democracy was threatened to get the media's attention. i am not painting everybody with a broad brush here, and some networks have done a great job. there are other networks mischaracterizing -- >> and public officials. >> there are networks that turned away from the insurrection as if we can just forget about it and move beyond it and the country will come together without accountability for that day. >> this is a choice in this election. what have been your messages to the biden campaign? >> that donald trump is the biggest threat to our democracy. he said it himself, he wants to be a dictator from day one. those are his words. at what point do we not take him serious? >> i don't have a message for the biden campaign. you know, joe biden will run his campaign the way he runs his campaign, and michael fanone will continue to speak out about what happened, and there's a clear voice between an authoritarian who has a violence fetish and, you know, somebody who seems to have a long track record of democracy, the peaceful transfer of power in our constitution. >> former capitol police officers -- >> dc police. >> yes, thank you for your service. ana, josé, the biden campaign here, the two officers speaking out on behalf of the biden campaign as the closing arguments take place in manhattan. >> thank you very much. i think it's important that when we listen to all of the voices involved, there's always the danger of the people who will criticize or attack the judicial system by saying it's politicized, and that fine balance, right, that has to be carried out by both the biden campaign and the trump campaign, but it's so important that for a democracy and a country to continue to grow and prosper, there must be the independence of the judicial system. that's one of the pillars of the rule of law. >> it's unlike the law of gravity, and i am holding a mug in my hand and if i drop it it would hit the ground, and that's the law of gravity and replies all the time and i can't control that. the rule of law is a construct, and it works because people make it work, and it's peopled by people and is imperfect, but it has worked extraordinarily well for hundreds of years. in part because of the independence and in part because of the procedures and law, and the judges and justices that preside. i think this is something people ought to keep in mind, whatever this jury does, if they convict or a mixed verdict or partial verdict or hung jury, it's okay. as citizens of the great country we accept that. if the jury acquits, that's okay. if the jury convicts, that's okay. as a citizen, we have to have faith in that outcome. mr. trump has tried to undermine this process at every turn, and because the rule of law is a construct those criticisms are deeply dangerous. >> the jury had the last week after the final testimony in this trial to really think about it before closing arguments today. this is what they are hearing right now inside that courtroom as donald trump's attorney, todd blanche, continues closing arguments today. he's talking about the recording where we heard -- where the jury has heard trump's voice in a discussion about michael cohen about the karen mcdougal catch and kill story, and the hush-money payment paid by ami to karen mcdougal. this is what blanche says about this, the phone call and you have a lawyer recording his client on 9/6/16. i say supposedly because there's a lot of dispute about that recording and the government has not shown that evidence as reliable, and mr. cohen said he recorded that to play for mr. pecker to ensure the money was coming, and mr. pecker was angry and cohen said that happened september 16th, labor day, and it was when cohen had lunch with pecker, and mr. cohen says he put his voice notes on and ran a graph that she was in and out of that meeting. as a reminder, pecker did testify before cohen and the idea that pecker did not mention the lunch in the testimony may not be as damning as blanche hopes it will be. how do you see how blanche is going about trying to poke holes in this reporting? >> one of the things he's doing here in addition to poking holes in the prosecution's story is reminding the jury what they heard. this has been a really long trial. the jury has only heard this testimony once. we have gone over it in these rooms, and we have gone over it and over it and talked about what did this mean and that mean, but the jury has only heard it once. they have not had an opportunity to talk about it with each other or anybody else, so he's reminding them of the key points in the earlier testimony, particularly mr. pecker's which was a number of weeks ago. he's juxtaposing mr. pecker's testimony against mr. cohen's testimony in showing all the places where those don't really line up in his view. >> just thinking about this, how unusual is it and what impact could it have that those jury members have had days and days to be outside that courtroom and outside that courthouse, and nobody is living in a cave, and i mean, they have been bombarded with who knows what about this. >> sure. >> how unusual is that and what impact do you think that could have? >> it's not unusual. if are a trial attorney, it's something you have to account for if it's a press case. i am referring to cases that have media attention and get media attention. you are not usually as concerned about this because you don't have as much of a chance that there's going to be information that they are going to have access to, or pressure from family, friends, whoever knows that they might be on the jury. that's the variable that you deal with a trial attorney. you don't necessarily know what's going to happen. you know the instructions given by the judge, which is you are not supposed to have conversations about this or start thinking about this until i give you the instructions on the law. you can't help but understand in a case like this it's going to be something, some element or aspect of the evidence they will think about, and what does that do to impact the negotiations once the deliberations begin? all of these things are not something you will know, so as a trial attorney you try and put it out of your head because you can't control it, and unless you have a good faith basis to believe that one of the jurors disregarded the instructions or started to talk about the case or have done something that gives you the belief they violated their oath as jurors, you have to focus on what you can do with respect to your arguments. it's not that unusual you are facing this. i think the degree to which we are talking about, and this is a case unlike any other because of the amount of influence and pressure they may be facing from other spaces, that's unusual. >> right now blanche is talking about trump's recording where you hear trump's voice in a conversation with michael cohen, and he said there's no doubt this recording discusses pecker and cohen, and trump has no idea what he's talking about when he says finance it, and president trump is in the real estate business and knows what it means. blanche, the next thing that happens is significant. when cohen was talking about cash and cohen told you he thought something was green, and it seems more criminal if there's a duffle bag full of green. mr. cohen told you he thought mr. trump was referring to green, and that makes it more sinister, and that was cohen lying to you, painting a picture that fits his narrative and not the truth. what do you think, katharine, again, about the importance of this recording? do you think that he's -- his questioning about what was really said on that recording could plant that seed of doubt in the jury's mind? >> the recording always had an opening for the defense, and it's great for the prosecution because there it is. the defense can always cross examine or argue what was left out of the recording. blanche talks about how the executive existence for the trump organization, apparently, according to him was in and out of the room and was never asked by the prosecutors about whether or not there was any of that conversation, probably because they knew she didn't hear any of it, and maybe as you check off the list of things on your direct, that's one of the things you ask about. she would say i have no knowledge of that. her purpose was to talk about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal being on the contact list of trump. what you are sort of getting at was the last witness was tuesday and then they had that long break. i never had that long of break to prepare my summation, and i wouldn't want that because i would drive myself crazy. that's unusual. it will be the prosecutor's job, really, to refresh their recollection and remind them of the evidence from beginning to end, because the defense doesn't want -- ignore that other stuff, we want to remind you about this, they want to remind them of the facts they say prove donald trump's innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, and they will talk about that. >> the prosecution gets to go last, and is that typical? >> very. standard operating procedural. new york is different. the government always bears the burden of proof, and mr. trump claimed it was, you know, he was singled out and it was unfair to him. it's nonsense. there's an advantage in going last, of course, but because the government bears the burden of proof, i think the disadvantage of one offsets the advantage of others. in federal court, the government closes and the defense closes and the government gets to rebut. they have the last word. in state court, different, but absolutely standard here in new york, the defense goes first and then the government finishes. >> then there is no rebut annual and that's it? >> there's no rebuttal. if you watched 1,000 trials in new york state court you would see 1,000 times that procedure. >> what makes this unique is that gap in time. >> yeah. >> when you are having consecutive days, for the defense to stand up and give their summation after you heard the testimony, it doesn't have the impact in terms of framing it for the jury that this could have, because to katharine's point, you have had a lot of time off and now that the jury

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