(hooves trotting) 20-year-old swimming star brock (somber music) turner, the 19-year-old former all-american. >> the star swimmer at stanford university. >> contender for the olympics. raping an unconscious woman. intoxicated, and unconscious. one >> passed up behind the dumpster. drunk -- behind a stanford dumpster. >> [sirens] >> your honor, if it is all, right i would like to address the defendant directly. you don't know me, but you've been inside me, and that's why we are here today. but >> the victim of that headlines, by releasing a heart wrenching letter, detailing the rape and its aftermath. >> he's got over 15 million views on buzzfeed alone. >> you don't know me, but you've been inside me. >> and that's why we're here today. >> i was found unconscious, with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck. >> my bare skin and head have been rubbing against the ground behind a dumpster, while interact freshman was hunting my half naked, unconscious body. >> i read that according to him, i liked it. >> your damage was concrete, stripped of titles, degrees, and -- >> my damage was internal, unseen. icat >> thinking to myself, the court system doesn't deserve -- >> even if you win the battle of proving your case in court, you still have to convince a judge that a prison sentence is appropriate. >> turner faced up to 14 years in prison, and he got six months. >> a slap on the wrist for a privileged white sexual offender an elite university. >> my first response is wow, that doesn't sound right, that must be white privilege going on here. >> because of good behavior in prison, turner was released this morning after just three months behind bars. >> we've got to fight for a world without rape. it is time to take a stand. what has happened here is unacceptable. >> there's near new pressure tonight aimed at removing the california judge. >> aaron persky is coming under fire. >> activists have targeted judge persky through a recall election. >> we need judges who understand sexual assault and domestic violence. judge persky does not. [applause] >> people widely recognized that women who have been victimized by men have not received justice. >> people have just had enough, they have had enough of women being marginalized. >> numbers are in, 62% of the voters recalling judge persky. >> persky is the first california judge recalled since 1932. and what was also viewed as one of the first electoral tests of the me too movement. >> when a fire is started, and i think of this and anger of over this case as a kind of fire, a lot of things are going to get burned. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> before i became district attorney, i was a deputy district attorney for 15 years. one >> of the concepts within justice is holding someone accountable for what they have done. >> frustrated prosecutors say this isn't justice. >> i had hoped for more time. we fought for more time, the victim deserves more time. >> i felt that i had failed chanel. >> i disagreed with the sentence, and i told judge frisky that. a lot of campus sexual assault cases have been boiling over, and many have not gone the way that the public wanted. so, a lot of people were surprised that i opposed the recall. >> i thought the recall was wrong, i can very strongly support women's rights, and work vigorously to uphold the dignity of women, and i can support the independents of judges. the judge in this case had the legal right to make the decision that he made. i think that it was the wrong decision, but the law allowed him to make that decision. what if that judges is deciding whether these abortion regulations are lawful? and the judge is in a place where a lot of people don't like abortion. we want the judge to say, i'm living in kansas, and so i know what people here think, so i'm going to do what they want. do you want the judge to follow the law? >> judge persky was fair in his rulings during the trial, and we look to whether we could appeal the sentence. but we realized, quickly, that the sentence was legal, the judge had the discretion to sentence that way. the probation department recommended it. >> if we were to recall every judge we would disagree with, we would have no judges >> judging is the best job in the world, and the worst job in the world. >> all of the drama of the human experience is played out in a courtroom. >> these are photos of when i started judging in 1982. and this was a big day, there had never been a black woman judge in northern california, ever. >> i consider myself a feminist. and feminism, to me, means i am aware of, and care about issues that impact women. >> recall, celebrated as a win for girls and women. there is no such thing. >> when i found out who the judge was, aaron persky, i began reading transcripts. the probation report, and that's when i said wait a minute, put the brakes on here. >> the community, the public, we were being misled. and, those of us who know this need to speak out. >> >> i'm jeff rosen, the district attorney of santa clara county. my office prosecutes sexual assault. >> i've sentenced people convicted of sexual assault. >> vote no recall of judge persky. >> judge persky's bias is a threat to the rule of law. >> the idea of racial bias. >> laws against sexual violence mean nothing of the judges who enforce them are biased like judge persky. >> there is an effort to say no, this wasn't a one-off, this is a pattern with him. >> so they cherry pick five cases out of the hundreds and hundreds of cases over ten years. >> in these cases we're all plea bargains. >> these are situations where the prosecution and the defense reached an agreement on the sentence. i think those are much different than the kind of case we have with brock turner. >> the judge, the role we play, we get presented the plea bargain. and if the plea bargain is not violent if of the law, we approve the plea bargains. now sometimes judges bust a plea, but it rarely happens, because it's a deal. >> the guardian, they do this big story it says, raul ramirez to be sentenced to three years in prison for a case with similarities to stanford sexual assault case, for which procter & gamble serve only six months. so right off the top, judge persky didn't sentence raul ramirez. ramirez was a plea bargain, judge persky was not the judge who accepted the plea bargain, and he was not the sentencing judge. but to the recall people, it didn't matter. >> judge persky has shown a clear bias in favor of men of privilege, in favor of people who abused women, rape women. and we are asking the commission to take action to remove judge persky. >> the commission on judicial performance, the body that disciplines judges if they misbehave, if they engage in misconduct, did a thorough investigation into judge persky, into his track record, and into the five cases alleged by the recall people to show bias, as well as his handling of the proctor nor case. >> the commission on judicial performance cleared him with wrongdoing, with no clear evidence of misconduct with his ruling. >> there was no bias. it wasn't even a close case. >> i absolutely think that white privilege informed the brock turner case. but in ways that are complicated. the sentencing guidelines recognize that he was a college student, that people saw with potential, with no record. and this stands in contrast to how the system would see a 19-year-old black kid from a poor neighborhood, who is a defendant. increasing sentencing, broadening the definitions of crimes, prosecuting more people, we all have this imagination that it will get at the powerful privileged criminal offenders. but criminal law doesn't equalize the world. criminal law does the opposite. criminal law exacerbates inequality. hi, my name is -- i am a professor at the university of colorado law school, and i really want to explore the role that the feminist movement has played in our current state of racialized mass incarceration. this feminist sensibility often has translated into tough on crime laws. and i've heard this a lot from feminists, right. we can be even prison abolitionists everywhere else, but not for sexual violence. that they don't have a general pro tough on crime community value, but they have a general protest on sex crime community value. 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(♪♪) joanna gaines: discoveries at saint jude helped this kid beat cancer at age two. marget: and now this kid has three kids. chip gaines: and that's what we do at saint jude. subject: give thanks for the healthy kids in your life and give a gift that could last a lifetime. i'm free to grow. i'm free to learn. i'm free to make the next big thing. contra costa college is free for full-time students, which makes you free to explore all the incredible opportunities unleashed by higher learning. start your future and apply today at contracosta.edu/free - he is an elected judge and he needs to be responsive to community values. start your future and apply today at contracosta.edu/free he is an elected judge, and he and he has to both understand where the community is needs to be responsive to community values. and he has to both understand where the community is with respect to sexual assault and the need to protect our daughters while they are in college. >> judges, for years, have already been reflecting those community values. but i think it's gotten to the point in the united states where accountability means rocking in jail. >> our norm's prison, that's what's been imposed on us as communities of color. i think about our communities of values, values of rehabilitation, and that incarceration in the prisons and in the jails are not the only solutions to it. >> as a participatory defense organizer at -- i, and a lot of the people support families who are facing the -- juvenile systems. and we walk families through that system, to impact the outcomes of their cases. and transform the landscape of power in the courts. >> how long have you've been in here? 15 years. >> we can show his life before that. >> has he thought about the -- stuff? >> yeah. >> i oppose the recall. because i felt that it was a misguided solution. the recall acquainted accountability with long sentences, and increases of mass incarceration. the way that the families have talked about -- the way that maybe the legal community and politicians talk about recall were two different conversations. -- ♪ ♪ ♪ >> judges in california and beyond are concerned about getting -- . >> as soon as the recall was announced, an empirical study found that sentences in california immediately increased by 30%. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and the effect wasn't on the next brock turner, it was on the young people of color that come into our -- >> embedded within the american criminal legal system is a whole cascade of biases, starting from where the police are deployed, to which cases the prosecutors will take, to who gets convicted or's over charge to plea to the amount of sentencing they get. >> long sentences, disproportionately affect people who are nothing like barack turner. >> the people who suffer the most are low income and people of color. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> we've seen judges stare families down in the face and say, i'm going to take your loved one away from you. those are the kind of judges who should be questions, who use incarceration as the first and only re-sort. mass incarceration separates families. our homes, our streets, our neighborhoods, our schools are drained of parents of children, of grandparents who should be together with families. instead, they have to form a relationship behind a glass. >> there is this sikh moral instinct that somebody who does wrong should have consequences for that. >> -- we're brock turner was sentenced to just six months in jail. >> serving just half his jail term. >> three months of a six month sentence. >> i've got bad guy -- >> that is the type of sentence you get for a sack of weed. for raping someone, it's another pass that they are giving. >> the media uniformly covered this as a case of under punishment, as a slap on the wrist. barack turner was convicted of felony sexual assault. he was sent to jail, he was placed on a registry. he has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. he is restricted in where he can live, work, with whom he can associate. >> if you don't know somebody who's been on a registry. if you have no relation to that, then you might imagine that this is nothing. >> there is no one more vocal in defense of chenal than i am. but, the recall is not the right way to protect future victims of sexual assault, and prevent a another brock turn from happening. >> we need to shift our frame and thinking, about how to deal not just even with violence against women, but all kinds of violence as dysfunctional social problems. >> the energy and the kind of anger that really came through in the recall, was to quench the public's thirst for punishment. and for vengeance. do we want a legal system that does that? hell no. if we look historically, it was people of color, low income people who got slammed in the courts. as a feminist, that's not what i think the feminist movement should be about. >> it wasn't that brock turner didn't deserve the kind of careful analysis that the judge gave him. it's that everyone does. >> [crowd chanting] >> today, we have a real opening, because of the tireless work of racial justice grassroots advocates. but other forces can put back on that momentum. >> one of them can be when feminists, who are rightly and importantly seeking sexual justice, when they valorize that system of harsh punishment, all of the public work that has been done to see that system for what it is, can fade. seeking harsh sentences within our mass incarceration system, is just a poor way to try to bend the moral arc towards justice. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ (♪♪) kevin! kevin? kevin? ooh, nice. kevin, where are you? kevin?!?!?.... hey, what's going on? 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>> well only made this film because we wanted to change the conversation. we felt like metoo media had really dropped the ball, on the important things to consider. and that activists, public defenders, lawyers, scholars at the times said if you recall a judge who has a fairly lenient pattern of sentencing, the effects aren't going to be on the next brock turner, because our criminal legal system suffers from systemic bias and racism, the effects are going to be on low income and people of color. and we now know that to be true. and so, with this information in mind, we really want to change what the conversation was. >> well at least some legal scholars were articulating some of those concerns. so, -- who is a feminist law professor, has always railed about what she calls the feminist war on crime. she has talked about the way in which this carceral feminism has really exacerbated the inequalities in the criminal justice system. so, let's hear a soundbite from her now. >> increasing sentencing, rotting in the definitions of crimes, prosecuting more people. we all have this imagination that it will get the powerful privileged criminal defenders. but criminal law doesn't equalize that way. criminal law does the opposite. criminal law exacerbates many problems. >> so if criminal law exacerbates inequalities, what do we do in a situation like the brock turner scenario, where we have an unspeakable crime, and yet we have this judge who wants to be lenient but the sentence feels like it hits too little. >> yeah, i think what we hope the film does, it's a call to step back from our most carceral impulses, and to ask how we can envision a form of justice that both holds people accountable, holds people who cause harm accountable, and also seeks justice for survivors. and all too often in this country, i think, we conflate punishment with justice. that is, harsh punishments have just become synonymous with justice. and this is why we have a crisis of mass incarceration. >> and also to, the survivors of sexual assault, what is justice for them? you know, we need to re-how we think of punishment, and how we think of justice for the survivors. because i bet if you ask many survivors who have, who whose perpetrators have gotten long sentences, many probably still wouldn't feel that the justice system took care of them, in a way that was sufficient. >> you look at the backlash that's shown in the film, let's take a little moment to reflect on that. >> turner faced up to 14 years in prison, and he got six months. >> a slap on the risk for a privileged white sexual offender at an elite university. >> i had hoped for more time. we fought for more time, the victim deserve more time. >> the film both shows that memory, that i think people have, but also tries to expand your view of what else should be considered. what would have been justice for turner? >> well, i mean i think it started with asking the person who had the harm from brock turner, what would have been justice. would it have been mental health support? would it have been some kind of apology and admittance of what he did? >> you know, in addition to potentially prison time. but, the way that our system is set up, it doesn't take into consideration, even for the victims, the survivors, what is necessary for healing for them. >> would it have been more than six months? >> i mean, it in some ways, that's a question that i certainly can't answer. i don't know what the appropriate time is for this particular offense. but i think we need to change what the conversation is about. again, what is healing, and what is justice. >> there are a lot of individuals on the legal system in california, and i was in california at the time when this was going down. and there were a number of people who said this was a fair sentence, like there was a re-sentence report from the probation department. this was someone who had no prior criminal record, and a six month sentence was within that range. like, here are a couple of legal experts in california at the time, talking about this, and talking about judge persky's sentence. >> do you want the judge to say, i'm living in kansas, and so i know what people here think, so i'm going to do what they want? >> you want the judge to follow the law. >> judge persky was fair in his rulings in trial, and we looked to whether we could appeal the sentence. but we realized quickly that the sentence was legal, the judge had the discretion's discretion to sentence that way. >> what do you make of that? i mean, this was somebody who hadn't been a prior offender. and, there's a lot to say about what happened here, but some people felt that this wasn't enough. and then there are some who were saying it was exactly right. >> yeah, i mean i think there are a bunch of valid ways to feel about the sentence. but the outrage that i think is so critical, and so critical to talk about, is the disparity in sentencing, is what a white privilege college kid got, versus low income and people of color get. and so, i genuinely believe that there were well-intentioned folks who were driving the recall, who were angry about these disparities in sentencing. but what we need to talk about was that recalling a judge didn't have the effect they wanted to do on attacking white privilege. it had the counter effect. so i think we really need to step back and ask hard questions when we demand longer prison sentences about who is going to effect. >> and in addition, other people who commit crimes should get the same kind of consideration. low income, people of color, who are mostly in the criminal justice system, should receive the same kind of consideration. are these first-time offenders? what effect will it have on their lives? and so, it's not the fact that barack turner got it, it's just that everyone should get that consideration, which is in the film. >> but judge persky was known to be lenient. the problem, as some researchers found, is that his leniency tended to come out in cases involving sexual assault, not in other areas of the law. how do you balance that kind of record against a sort of broader social milieu, when we are really finally starting to take sexual assault and victimization seriously? >> yeah, i mean, persky had a record where he sentence in line with the probation department. and so, the biases you see in the system are systemic, they are not specific to. >> but this was about the low penalties for sexual assault, not necessarily him having and giving low penalties for sexual assault. >> i think that's right. and that also, we just continue to conflate punishment with justice. instead of asking the harder questions that you were focused on, on what justice looks like for survivors. >> should there be recalls at all? >> i personally don't think there should. i mean, we've seen a recall of -- in san francisco, after he was voted in, precisely to reform the adjust system. they are trying to recall krasner in philly, i believe in l.a. as well. and, i feel like, and this is my personal opinion, that people get angry when they don't see change quickly, and they feel, in these cases with these prosecutors, that prime, they are suffering crime, their cities are overrun with with crime. which, in that needs to be looked at two, of how real that actually is. and then, there's lots of money that's put in to recalling and saying, they are not doing their job that they should be doing. and it's much more complex than that, as we know. crime is much more complex. and what these prosecutors, these judges do is only one piece of a very, as we said, systemic system. so, i don't think recalls are a good idea. >> and, we never recall judges who punished to leniency, sorry. we never recall judges who punished to harshly, only two lenient lee. and this is part of the crisis in mass incarceration. so no, i don't think there should be recalls, i don't think they are used well, and i think they contribute to more years in prison, and to entrenching ourselves deeper in this crisis. >> has this laid a foundation where if you don't like what a judge is doing, you can simply put that judge on the ballot, and put it to the voters? because it seems like this is where this is going. we hear more about this, -- all of this is in the wake of judge persky. >> well, we know that more voting doesn't necessarily mean more democracy. it doesn't mean more democratic values. and so no, i don't think recalls are a useful political tool to get us to justice. >> as time goes on here, we have this wider understanding of what the me too movement has become. where do you see this fitting into that larger conversation? because you are both addressing and trying to excavate a different view of this history. but you also seem to be trying to bring out a kind of lens of where we go from here. >> well, i think a lot of times in this country, when we have these conversations, it becomes very this or that, black or white. you know, punishment or leniency. and, we have to understand as feminists, as women who want to stop sexual assaults, who advocate for stopping sexual assault. we have to understand how to really do it, and what are the implications of the legal system. and i think -- says it right, criminal justice, the criminal law system only exacerbates these inequalities. so, we actually can't just be single focused. i think that we've seen how that that doesn't work in so many ways. and so as we advocate for me to, and for accountability and justice in sexual assault, we also have to look at the criminal justice system, which historically and still comes down most harshly on people of color, and low income people. it's an unfair system, and if we don't deal with that, then having more laws that just put people in prison longer, that's not justice for anybody. >> yeah, and that really goes to where i want to take this conversation, as we look ahead to what else can be done. so professor murray and i are here, giving our special co-anchoring for the special conversation. -- we're actually stay with, us and tell everyone when we turn to is how we go forward, the wider implications, and this larger question of criminal justice reform in america. stay with. us ica. stay with. us there's something going around the gordon home. good thing gertrude found delsym. now what's going around is 12-hour cough relief. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. dear wayfair. the family that takes delsym together, this year i want... to say thanks. over the centuries i've become passionate about home decor. and my favorite homes are wayfair homes. i even stop by on my day off! i know what people want, and you've got just what they need. also, i love your ottomans. your number one fan, santa. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? 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or were there other alternative methods of punishment that might have been explored? >> yeah, thank you. i want to just be 100% transparent, and share that when i heard about brock turner's sentencing, i was outraged, because i knew that, or at least i believed that had he been a black man or a man of color, and had the survivor been a white woman, the sentencing probably would have looked very different. at the same time, as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse as well as rape and in college, i know that incarceration isn't going to stop rape, and it's not necessarily going to make me safe. so for me, i was holding on both ends of recognizing that it didn't feel like a fair sentencing, even though i am not in favor of carceral responses to sexual or, any form of harm. but i also empathize with everyone who was enraged about the sentencing. >> so, judge -- it makes a great point. >> if this were slightly different, and this was a man of color convicted of raping a white woman, we might have gotten an entirely different sentence. here is a clip from 2015 of then president barack obama talking about the ways in which the criminal justice systems penalties are more likely to be visited on black and brown men. >> the bottom line is that into many places, black boys and black men, latino boys and latino men, experience being treated differently under the law. it is not as fair as it should be. mass incarceration makes our country worse off. and we need to do something about it. any system that allows us to turn a blind eye to hopelessness and despair, that's not a justice system, it is an injustice system. >> judge kordell, this case not only made clear that there may actually be two very different systems of justice in the united states, but there may also be two very different kinds of responses to it. so, this case really pitted on the one hand, traditional mainstream feminism against black feminism. so, can you talk a little bit about how you saw this play out in california, and the ways in which the concerns of black feminists were articulated, and also minimized? >> well first of all, we are fortunate, all of us, to have a criminal legal system that's really based upon wonderful principles. the problem is in the implementation of these principles. we know that women, people of color, and even poor white males were never the intended beneficiaries of these wonderful principles. so our challenge has always been, and continues to be, to make the system that was founded on exclusion, inclusive. and certainly in my view, being more punitive will never get us there. so, when it is asserted that the sentence that was given by judge persky would have been different had the defendant been of color, for example, i take issue with that, because what the judge did is what we want every judge to do. and that is to give careful consideration to the individual who was before that judge. and that is exactly what judge persky did. and that's what we want. i think we all want a system where a judge gives individualized attention to that particular person, to the victim, and to the circumstances of the crime. and that is not what the recall ended up doing. the recall ended up saying, we really have a problem that the judge gave individualized approach and attention to mr. turner. no, instead they wanted to just throw the book at him, be more punitive. and in my view, that's not what we want. feminist don't want that, i'm a feminist, i am african american. and that is the point. we want judges who did what the judge did in the turner case. >> but can i just interrupt for a minute? can i interrupt? >> sure. >> it's true that i think a lot of feminist wanted a sentence that consider the holistic aspects of this case. but you found yourself on opposing sides for stanford law professor michelle -- , who really wanted and spearheaded this recall effort. and she is a very well-known feminist law professor, and you have articulated a strain of interest in criminal justice system that i think is most closely identified with black feminism. did this case surface within the mainstream feminist legal movement, that otherwise might have gone unexplored? >> oh, it absolutely did. there was no question that there were feminists who took the position the view that i did, in opposing the recall. and there are those who took the position that there should be a recall, because they just wanted more punishment, and if they couldn't get more punishment for mr. turner, they want to take it out on the judge. and they did, they were more punitive, this judge lost his job. and then there were those of us on the other side who said that is not a system that we want, because in the long term, when you have a recall that punishes a judge for doing something that is lawful, although controversial, you end up getting the system that is more punitive, and those who are the recipients of that punishment, of that harsher system, are generally going to be people of color and people who are low income. >> so let me jump in and bring aisha into this part of the conversation. the argument here, and the the movie refers to the idea that we'll, when you had this recall, other judges who we just shown are overwhelmingly not representing the whole community, but a lot of frankly quite guy judges, then responded by being more punitive. and we've been talking about that. aisha, another piece of that, and i'm curious how you feel about this as an activist is, for people in that movement, federalists feminist, blm et cetera who said well, we chose this fight. and they said now, a bunch of white guy judges are reacting to it in that way. well, one response is they don't control that, and it doesn't take, from my reporting, a recall or a special event for a lot of people in those positions of power to act that way anyway. so i'm curious, as we kind of take this seriously. the film takes it seriously, we're trying to take it seriously today. what do you say to those activist, as a fellow activist, who say well, they had a point to make, and it doesn't surprise them that the people responded that way. and i will make one more analogy as a thought experiment. there are people who fought for body cameras, people responded by saying well, some of the police leadership in the police unions, their response to body cameras to double down and be worse. but, that doesn't mean if that's, in a frankly out of balance illegitimate response, then you yell to that. so it's tricky. but given what the professor -- with the judge just exposed, i'm curious your reaction to all of the above, and then maybe the filmmakers will respond as well? >> i think i'm a little confused around the question. but i mean, then i want to say that i'm a feminist, i've already established that i am a survivor. i think that i guess for me, i feel like when we have these conversations, often what gets lost is the survivors, and our needs. and as a filmmaker and writer who has documented so much of this, specifically to black survivors, i think it's really the question of what does justice look like, what does healing and accountability look like? and so i think it is important. i am not in favor of the recall at all, i think that it's very dangerous. but i think that what we need to do is begin to think about what is healing and accountability and justice look like, and move beyond just thinking, frankly myself as somebody who doesn't believe in presents in response to harm, move beyond only thinking about presents in response to it. i think that that's part of the problem here. we don't have, i mean we do, have there are justice in transformative justice opportunities out there. but most people don't know about that. so for me, i am if we're talking about recall, i also want to re-frame the conversation about how we respond to harm. howie centre survivors. >> and for the filmmakers i, mean that is part of the question. if other judges or people in power had the wrong response, let's say for the sake of argument they did, that alone doesn't necessarily counts cancel out what those activists said they were trying to achieve. so your thoughts? >> i mean, i go back to the brief framing, right. and i know you know, aisha just talked about it. but, the activists who were re-, who called for the recall, they were pushing for longer sentences. like, that's what the motivation was. and i too, like aisha, also when rebecca first told me about this project, my initial thing was yeah, i remember being outraged about this light sentencing. so, as women, and many people, we were, there is a visceral it, a visceral thing of this guy wasn't punished enough for this horrible deed he committed. but when you understand, and hopefully this film will be part of opening and getting people to open up the conversation. when you understand what that actually means, in terms of who it comes down on harsher sentences and the fact that justice, this idea of justice has not, is not served by our system, right. >> and these are big questions which the film explores. because of our time constraints, that's where we leave this. you can see right here on the screen that many experts and perspectives we have, which we were thankful for. this was an msnbc presentation of the recall refrained. thanks to everyone, rebecca -- -- judge kordell, aisha simmons. and, as we say last year's co-host, professor murray. you can always find us on the beat at six pm eastern, if you look for more coverage, legal and otherwise. thanks for watching, and keep it locked on msnbc. msnbc and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? 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