try giving that what i knew at the time by what _ giving that what i knew at the time by what was going on the answer to that is_ by what was going on the answer to that is no_ by what was going on the answer to that is no but what i possibly should — that is no but what i possibly should have done is issued a general instruction— should have done is issued a general instruction to everybody to be mindful— instruction to everybody to be mindful of the rules and how things would _ mindful of the rules and how things would appear. i think one of the what's _ would appear. i think one of the what's whatsapp messages that was created _ what's whatsapp messages that was created earlier... that what's whatsapp messages that was created earlier. . ._ what's whatsapp messages that was created earlier... that whatsapp was deleted one — created earlier... that whatsapp was deleted one year _ created earlier... that whatsapp was deleted one year later. _ created earlier... that whatsapp was deleted one year later. you - created earlier... that whatsapp was deleted one year later. you have - deleted one year later. you have one deleted one year later. you have gone beyond _ deleted one year later. you have gone beyond my _ deleted one year later. you have gone beyond my permitted - deleted one year later. you have - gone beyond my permitted questions already. gone beyond my permitted questions alread . . gone beyond my permitted questions alread . , ., ., already. keeping on the theme of erha -s already. keeping on the theme of perhaps not _ already. keeping on the theme of perhaps not doing _ already. keeping on the theme of perhaps not doing quite - already. keeping on the theme of perhaps not doing quite enough l already. keeping on the theme of. perhaps not doing quite enough may already. keeping on the theme of- perhaps not doing quite enough may i return— perhaps not doing quite enough may i return to _ perhaps not doing quite enough may i return to your — perhaps not doing quite enough may i return to your communications - perhaps not doing quite enough may i return to your communications with l return to your communications with the devolved — return to your communications with the devolved administrations. - return to your communications with the devolved administrations. you. the devolved administrations. you told us _ the devolved administrations. you totd us that— the devolved administrations. you told us that why _ the devolved administrations. you told us that why in _ the devolved administrations. you told us that why in your— the devolved administrations. you told us that why in your view- the devolved administrations. you told us that why in your view the l told us that why in your view the leaders — told us that why in your view the leaders of— told us that why in your view the leaders of the _ told us that why in your view the leaders of the devolved - told us that why in your view the i leaders of the devolved institutions was not _ leaders of the devolved institutions was not working... _ leaders of the devolved institutions was not working... you _ leaders of the devolved institutions was not working... you knew- leaders of the devolved institutions was not working... you knew that i was not working... you knew that when _ was not working... you knew that when cobra — was not working... you knew that when cobra was _ was not working... you knew that when cobra was stopped - was not working... you knew that when cobra was stopped in - was not working... you knew that when cobra was stopped in may l was not working... you knew that - when cobra was stopped in may 2020 that left _ when cobra was stopped in may 2020 that left no _ when cobra was stopped in may 2020 that left no formal— when cobra was stopped in may 2020 that left no formal means _ when cobra was stopped in may 2020 that left no formal means by - when cobra was stopped in may 2020 that left no formal means by which i that left no formal means by which you could — that left no formal means by which you could meet _ that left no formal means by which you could meet the _ that left no formal means by which you could meet the leaders - that left no formal means by which you could meet the leaders of- that left no formal means by which you could meet the leaders of the i you could meet the leaders of the devolved — you could meet the leaders of the devolved administrations. - you could meet the leaders of the devolved administrations. you - devolved administrations. you understood _ devolved administrations. you understood that— devolved administrations. you understood that the _ devolved administrations. you understood that the new? - devolved administrations. you understood that the new? i. devolved administrations. you understood that the new? i don't think that is _ understood that the new? i don't think that is quite _ understood that the new? i don't think that is quite true. - understood that the new? i don't think that is quite true. there - understood that the new? i don't l think that is quite true. there were obviously— think that is quite true. there were obviously plenty of opportunities in which _ obviously plenty of opportunities in which i _ obviously plenty of opportunities in which i could meet the leaders of the devolved administrations. i had excellent _ the devolved administrations. i had excellent relationships with both michelle and arlene foster but as the inquiry has heard we tried to... the decision— the inquiry has heard we tried to... the decision in fact, and the consequence _ the decision in fact, and the consequence of— the decision in fact, and the consequence of it _ the decision in fact, and the consequence of it was - the decision in fact, and the consequence of it was that l the decision in fact, and the - consequence of it was that between may and _ consequence of it was that between may and october— consequence of it was that between may and october and _ consequence of it was that between may and october and september. consequence of it was that between i may and october and september 2020 you did _ may and october and september 2020 you did not _ may and october and september 2020 you did not have — may and october and september 2020 you did not have any— may and october and september 2020 you did not have any direct _ may and october and september 2020 you did not have any direct meetings l you did not have any direct meetings with the _ you did not have any direct meetings with the leaders _ you did not have any direct meetings with the leaders of— you did not have any direct meetings with the leaders of the _ you did not have any direct meetings with the leaders of the devolved - with the leaders of the devolved administrations, _ with the leaders of the devolved administrations, that's - with the leaders of the devolved administrations, that's a - with the leaders of the devolved administrations, that's a fact. i with the leaders of the devolved l administrations, that's a fact. infill administrations, that's a fact. will meetin . s administrations, that's a fact. meetings themselves were quite difficult — meetings themselves were quite difficult. , ., meetings themselves were quite difficult. ,., �* . ,, ., difficult. the point i'm making to ou is difficult. the point i'm making to you is that _ difficult. the point i'm making to you is that the _ difficult. the point i'm making to you is that the point _ difficult. the point i'm making to you is that the point of _ difficult. the point i'm making to you is that the point of stopping | you is that the point of stopping the cobra — you is that the point of stopping the cobra meetings _ you is that the point of stopping the cobra meetings and - you is that the point of stopping. the cobra meetings and replacing them _ the cobra meetings and replacing them with— the cobra meetings and replacing them with four— the cobra meetings and replacing them with four nations _ the cobra meetings and replacing them with four nations calls - the cobra meetings and replacingl them with four nations calls which she would — them with four nations calls which she would not— them with four nations calls which she would not be _ them with four nations calls which she would not be present - them with four nations calls which she would not be present was - them with four nations calls which she would not be present was a l she would not be present was a deliberate — she would not be present was a deliberate decision— she would not be present was a deliberate decision to _ she would not be present was a deliberate decision to manage i she would not be present was a . deliberate decision to manage the devolved — deliberate decision to manage the devolved administrations. - deliberate decision to manage the devolved administrations. it- deliberate decision to manage the devolved administrations.- deliberate decision to manage the devolved administrations. it was my “udument devolved administrations. it was my judgment that _ devolved administrations. it was my judgment that the... _ devolved administrations. it was my judgment that the... with _ devolved administrations. it was my judgment that the... with whom - devolved administrations. it was my judgment that the... with whom we i judgment that the... with whom we had excellent relationships and overwhelmingly things will work, i think— overwhelmingly things will work, i think they— overwhelmingly things will work, i think they were well placed to deal with them and he did. so think they were well placed to deal with them and he did.— think they were well placed to deal with them and he did. so the answer to my question _ with them and he did. so the answer to my question is — with them and he did. so the answer to my question is that _ with them and he did. so the answer to my question is that it _ with them and he did. so the answer to my question is that it was - with them and he did. so the answer to my question is that it was a - to my question is that it was a deliberate _ to my question is that it was a deliberate decision. _ to my question is that it was a deliberate decision.— to my question is that it was a deliberate decision. yes. it. to my question is that it was a. deliberate decision. yes. it was deliberate _ deliberate decision. it was deliberate because in deliberate decision.“ it was deliberate because in your- deliberate decision.“ it was deliberate because in your view deliberate decision.“ it was l deliberate because in your view it was practically— deliberate because in your view it was practically wrong _ deliberate because in your view it was practically wrong and - deliberate because in your view it was practically wrong and you - deliberate because in your view it| was practically wrong and you cite in your— was practically wrong and you cite in your statement _ was practically wrong and you cite in your statement it _ was practically wrong and you cite in your statement it was - was practically wrong and you cite in your statement it was in - was practically wrong and you cite in your statement it was in that i was practically wrong and you cite i in your statement it was in that way would _ in your statement it was in that way would not _ in your statement it was in that way would not be — in your statement it was in that way would not be commuting _ in your statement it was in that way would not be commuting any- in your statement it was in that way would not be commuting any —— - would not be commuting any —— communicating _ would not be commuting any —— communicating with _ would not be commuting any —— communicating with the - would not be commuting any —— communicating with the first. would not be commuting any —— - communicating with the first minute artist _ communicating with the first minute artist of— communicating with the first minute artist of scotland. _ communicating with the first minute artist of scotland. it _ communicating with the first minute artist of scotland. it would - communicating with the first minute artist of scotland. it would avoid - artist of scotland. it would avoid leaks _ artist of scotland. it would avoid leaks and — artist of scotland. it would avoid leaks and so—called _ artist of scotland. it would avoid leaks and so—called divergence. | leaks and so—called divergence. there _ leaks and so—called divergence. there was— leaks and so—called divergence. there was an _ leaks and so—called divergence. there was an opportunity - leaks and so—called divergence. there was an opportunity was . leaks and so—called divergence. - there was an opportunity was unfair for some _ there was an opportunity was unfair for some form — there was an opportunity was unfair for some form of— there was an opportunity was unfair for some form of what _ there was an opportunity was unfair for some form of what you - there was an opportunity was unfair for some form of what you called i for some form of what you called integrated — for some form of what you called integrated decision—making - for some form of what you called integrated decision—making and. integrated decision—making and direct— integrated decision—making and direct communications- integrated decision—making and direct communications that - integrated decision—making and direct communications that was�* integrated decision—making and . direct communications that was as you told _ direct communications that was as you totd us— direct communications that was as you told us yesterday— direct communications that was as you told us yesterday in _ direct communications that was as you told us yesterday in hindsightl you told us yesterday in hindsight was desirable. _ you told us yesterday in hindsight was desirable. you _ you told us yesterday in hindsight was desirable. you opted - you told us yesterday in hindsight was desirable. you opted not- you told us yesterday in hindsight was desirable. you opted not to i you told us yesterday in hindsight. was desirable. you opted not to take it and _ was desirable. you opted not to take it and that _ was desirable. you opted not to take it and that was — was desirable. you opted not to take it and that was the _ was desirable. you opted not to take it and that was the joint _ it and that was the joint ministerial— it and that was the joint ministerial committee. i it and that was the joint . ministerial committee. do it and that was the joint - ministerial committee. do you it and that was the joint _ ministerial committee. do you agree? you opted _ ministerial committee. do you agree? you opted not — ministerial committee. do you agree? you opted not to— ministerial committee. do you agree? you opted not to take _ ministerial committee. do you agree? you opted not to take it _ you opted not to take it deliberately. _ you opted not to take it deliberately. [- you opted not to take it deliberately.— you opted not to take it deliberatel . ,, , ., , deliberately. i think the problem, and we covered _ deliberately. i think the problem, and we covered this _ deliberately. i think the problem, and we covered this yesterday, i deliberately. i think the problem, | and we covered this yesterday, the problem _ and we covered this yesterday, the problem with that particular approach was that it was still vulnerable to some of the weaknesses you have _ vulnerable to some of the weaknesses you have just mentioned. the vulnerable to some of the weaknesses you have just mentioned.— you have 'ust mentioned. the benefit ofthat you have just mentioned. the benefit of that particular _ you have just mentioned. the benefit of that particular approach _ you have just mentioned. the benefit of that particular approach is - you have just mentioned. the benefit of that particular approach is that - of that particular approach is that it would — of that particular approach is that it would have _ of that particular approach is that it would have been _ of that particular approach is that it would have been an _ of that particular approach is that i it would have been an independent stream. _ it would have been an independent stream. a — it would have been an independent stream, a committee, _ it would have been an independent stream, a committee, chaired - it would have been an independent stream, a committee, chaired by. it would have been an independent . stream, a committee, chaired by you in which _ stream, a committee, chaired by you in which you — stream, a committee, chaired by you in which you would _ stream, a committee, chaired by you in which you would have _ stream, a committee, chaired by you in which you would have met - stream, a committee, chaired by you in which you would have met and - in which you would have met and discussed — in which you would have met and discussed with— in which you would have met and discussed with the _ in which you would have met and discussed with the leaders - in which you would have met and discussed with the leaders of- in which you would have met and discussed with the leaders of the devolved — discussed with the leaders of the devolved administrations - discussed with the leaders of the devolved administrations the - discussed with the leaders of the l devolved administrations the great crisis _ devolved administrations the great crisis that— devolved administrations the great crisis that this _ devolved administrations the great crisis that this country _ devolved administrations the great crisis that this country was - devolved administrations the great crisis that this country was facing l crisis that this country was facing at the _ crisis that this country was facing at the time _ crisis that this country was facing at the time it— crisis that this country was facing at the time. it may— crisis that this country was facing at the time. it may have - crisis that this country was facing at the time. it may have been. at the time. it may have been constitutionally— at the time. it may have been constitutionally weird - at the time. it may have been constitutionally weird to - at the time. it may have been constitutionally weird to use i at the time. it may have been. constitutionally weird to use your words _ constitutionally weird to use your words from — constitutionally weird to use your words from yesterday, _ constitutionally weird to use your words from yesterday, perhaps . words from yesterday, perhaps imperfect, _ words from yesterday, perhaps imperfect, but— words from yesterday, perhaps imperfect, but this _ words from yesterday, perhaps imperfect, but this was - words from yesterday, perhaps imperfect, but this was an - words from yesterday, perhaps . imperfect, but this was an option available — imperfect, but this was an option available to — imperfect, but this was an option available to you _ imperfect, but this was an option available to you wasn't _ imperfect, but this was an option available to you wasn't it. - imperfect, but this was an option available to you wasn't it. yes . imperfect, but this was an option available to you wasn't it. yes that is correct but _ available to you wasn't it. yes that is correct but i _ available to you wasn't it. yes that is correct but i want _ available to you wasn't it. yes that is correct but i want to _ available to you wasn't it. yes that is correct but i want to stress - available to you wasn't it. yes that is correct but i want to stress that | is correct but i want to stress that the overwhelming result of the cooperation we had with the devolved administrations was harmonious. your evidence yesterday _ administrations was harmonious. your evidence yesterday was that perhaps you should _ evidence yesterday was that perhaps you should have _ evidence yesterday was that perhaps you should have done _ evidence yesterday was that perhaps you should have done more - evidence yesterday was that perhaps you should have done more on- you should have done more on reflection _ you should have done more on reflection l— you should have done more on reflection-— you should have done more on reflection. ,, . . , reflection. i think what i said was that i would _ reflection. i think what i said was that i would like... _ reflection. i think what i said was that i would like... what - reflection. i think what i said was that i would like... what we - reflection. i think what i said was| that i would like... what we need reflection. i think what i said was i that i would like... what we need is some _ that i would like... what we need is some sort— that i would like... what we need is some sort of— that i would like... what we need is some sort of leak—proof integrated system _ some sort of leak—proof integrated system. that is the grail. is some sort of leak-proof integrated system. that is the grail.— system. that is the grail. is surely what ou system. that is the grail. is surely what you needed _ system. that is the grail. is surely what you needed was _ system. that is the grail. is surely what you needed was better - system. that is the grail. is surely what you needed was better forms system. that is the grail. is surely i what you needed was better forms of communication— what you needed was better forms of communication with _ what you needed was better forms of communication with the _ what you needed was better forms of communication with the leaders - what you needed was better forms of communication with the leaders of i communication with the leaders of the devolved — communication with the leaders of the devolved administration - communication with the leaders of the devolved administration in- communication with the leaders of the devolved administration in ani the devolved administration in an environment _ the devolved administration in an environment that— the devolved administration in an environment that best _ the devolved administration in an environment that best benefited i environment that best benefited communication— environment that best benefited communication across _ environment that best benefited communication across all - environment that best benefited communication across all of - environment that best benefited communication across all of the | communication across all of the devolved — communication across all of the devolved administrations. - communication across all of the devolved administrations. [- communication across all of the devolved administrations. i think we had excellent _ devolved administrations. i think we had excellent communication - devolved administrations. i think we had excellent communication acrossi had excellent communication across all had excellent communication across att of— had excellent communication across all of the _ had excellent communication across all of the devolved administrations and i_ all of the devolved administrations and i think— all of the devolved administrations and i think that the overall performance of the uk in the pandemic as a single entity was remarkable and every part of the uk played _ remarkable and every part of the uk played an— remarkable and every part of the uk played an important part in the effort — played an important part in the effort. there was a huge amount of joined _ effort. there was a huge amount of joined up _ effort. there was a huge amount of joined up work going on across the whole _ joined up work going on across the whole country. joined up work going on across the whole country-— joined up work going on across the whole country. joined up work going on across the whole count . ~ . . . ., whole country. what credence then do ou rive to whole country. what credence then do you give to the — whole country. what credence then do you give to the complaints _ whole country. what credence then do you give to the complaints coming - you give to the complaints coming from _ you give to the complaints coming from the _ you give to the complaints coming from the devolved _ you give to the complaints coming from the devolved administrationl from the devolved administration leaders. — from the devolved administration leaders. i— from the devolved administration leaders, i mean— from the devolved administration leaders, i mean across _ from the devolved administration leaders, i mean across the - from the devolved administration leaders, i mean across the board�* from the devolved administration - leaders, i mean across the board not 'ust leaders, i mean across the board not just in— leaders, i mean across the board not just in northern _ leaders, i mean across the board not just in northern ireland, _ leaders, i mean across the board not just in northern ireland, a _ leaders, i mean across the board not just in northern ireland, a very- just in northern ireland, a very high-handed _ just in northern ireland, a very high—handed and _ just in northern ireland, a very high—handed and in _ just in northern ireland, a veryi high—handed and in community just in northern ireland, a very. high—handed and in community in communicative _ high—handed and in community in communicative approach - high—handed and in community in communicative approach from - communicative approach from westminster _ communicative approach from westminster l— communicative approach from westminster.— communicative approach from - westminster._ just to westminster. i do not agree. just to be clear you — westminster. i do not agree. just to be clear you reject _ westminster. i do not agree. just to be clear you reject the _ westminster. i do not agree. just to be clear you reject the idea - westminster. i do not agree. just to be clear you reject the idea of - westminster. i do not agree. just to be clear you reject the idea of a - be clear you reject the idea of a high-handed _ be clear you reject the idea of a high—handed and _ be clear you reject the idea of al high—handed and communicative approach — high—handed and communicative approach by— high—handed and communicative approach by westminster- high—handed and communicative approach by westminster as - high—handed and communicative approach by westminster as a i approach by westminster as a complaint _ approach by westminster as a complaint by— approach by westminster as a complaint by the _ approach by westminster as a complaint by the devolved - complaint by the devolved administrations. - complaint by the devolved administrations. [- complaint by the devolved administrations.— complaint by the devolved administrations. ., . ~ administrations. i do and i think we had a huge — administrations. i do and i think we had a huge amount _ administrations. i do and i think we had a huge amount of— administrations. i do and i think we had a huge amount of contact - administrations. i do and i think we i had a huge amount of contact between number— had a huge amount of contact between number ten _ had a huge amount of contact between numberten and the had a huge amount of contact between number ten and the devolved administrations between central government and the devolved administrations and every effort was made _ administrations and every effort was made to— administrations and every effort was made to bring everybody together. angling _ made to bring everybody together. angling to move on into what you suggested — angling to move on into what you suggested in _ angling to move on into what you suggested in your— angling to move on into what you suggested in your statement - angling to move on into what you suggested in your statement was| angling to move on into what you i suggested in your statement was a way in _ suggested in your statement was a way in which — suggested in your statement was a way in which we _ suggested in your statement was a way in which we could _ suggested in your statement was a way in which we could have - suggested in your statement was al way in which we could have brought taiwan _ way in which we could have brought taiwan together, _ way in which we could have brought taiwan together, and _ way in which we could have brought taiwan together, and that - way in which we could have brought taiwan together, and that is - way in which we could have brought taiwan together, and that is your i taiwan together, and that is your proposal— taiwan together, and that is your proposal for— taiwan together, and that is your proposal for a _ taiwan together, and that is your proposal for a pan— _ taiwan together, and that is your proposalfora pan— uk— taiwan together, and that is your l proposal for a pan— uk contingency act. proposal for a pan— uk contingency act~ even— proposal for a pan— uk contingency act~ even though _ proposal for a pan— uk contingency act. even though that _ proposal for a pan— uk contingency act. even though that is _ proposal for a pan— uk contingency act. even though that is your - act. even though that is your position— act. even though that is your position in— act. even though that is your position in the _ act. even though that is your position in the statement, i act. even though that is your - position in the statement, should we understand _ position in the statement, should we understand that _ position in the statement, should we understand that your— position in the statement, should we understand that your updated - understand that your updated position— understand that your updated position is— understand that your updated position is that _ understand that your updated position is that there - understand that your updated position is that there are - understand that your updated - position is that there are powerful arguments— position is that there are powerful arguments against— position is that there are powerful arguments against that _ position is that there are powerful arguments against that proposal? i position is that there are powerfull arguments against that proposal? i have arguments against that proposal? have noticed in the course of arguments against that proposal?“ have noticed in the course of these excellent _ have noticed in the course of these excellent hearings and the discussion that has gone on that people _ discussion that has gone on that people think that the cca is not the film people think that the cca is not the right framework. i'm listening to that _ right framework. i'm listening to that i_ right framework. i'm listening to that. i think maybe something could be done _ that. i think maybe something could be done under the 1984 public health act as— be done under the 1984 public health act as somebody said yesterday. i think— act as somebody said yesterday. i think we _ act as somebody said yesterday. i think we need to recognise that a pandemic— think we need to recognise that a pandemic presents a particular problem — pandemic presents a particular problem for the whole... cross boundary — problem for the whole... cross boundary problem for the whole of the uk _ boundary problem for the whole of the uk and that there needs to be some _ the uk and that there needs to be some sort— the uk and that there needs to be some sort of way of making sure that our messages are united. that was the point _ our messages are united. that was the point i — our messages are united. that was the point i was making. i'm sure the inquiry— the point i was making. i'm sure the inquiry will— the point i was making. i'm sure the inquiry will attach whatever importance it needs to but i found during _ importance it needs to but i found during the — importance it needs to but i found during the course of the pandemic occasionally that messages were being _ occasionally that messages were being blurred and people are being confused _ being blurred and people are being confused because of the succession of press _ confused because of the succession of press conferences from different parts _ of press conferences from different parts of _ of press conferences from different parts of the uk and i may have been super—sensitive to that but i was getting _ super—sensitive to that but i was getting quite a lot of eco about that _ getting quite a lot of eco about that. . getting quite a lot of eco about that. , ., getting quite a lot of eco about that. . ., ~' that. time permitting i would like to ask ou that. time permitting i would like to ask you some _ that. time permitting i would like to ask you some patterns - that. time permitting i would like to ask you some patterns but - that. time permitting i would likei to ask you some patterns but that the end — to ask you some patterns but that the end but _ to ask you some patterns but that the end. but dealing _ to ask you some patterns but that the end. but dealing of— to ask you some patterns but that the end. but dealing of the - to ask you some patterns but that the end. but dealing of the issuei to ask you some patterns but that i the end. but dealing of the issue of a pan- _ the end. but dealing of the issue of a pan- uk_ the end. but dealing of the issue of a pan— uk contingency— the end. but dealing of the issue of a pan— uk contingency act- the end. but dealing of the issue of a pan— uk contingency act you - a pan— uk contingency act you realise _ a pan— uk contingency act you realise now— a pan— uk contingency act you realise now that _ a pan— uk contingency act you realise now that your- a pan— uk contingency act you realise now that your proposal a pan— uk contingency act you . realise now that your proposal for such a _ realise now that your proposal for such a pan- — realise now that your proposal for such a pan- uk_ realise now that your proposal for such a pan— uk act _ realise now that your proposal for such a pan— uk act achieved - such a pan— uk act achieved relatively— such a pan— uk act achieved relatively rare _ such a pan— uk act achieved relatively rare cross—party i such a pan— uk act achieved . relatively rare cross—party unity such a pan— uk act achieved - relatively rare cross—party unity in northern — relatively rare cross—party unity in northern ireland. _ relatively rare cross—party unity in northern ireland. it— relatively rare cross—party unity in northern ireland. it was _ relatively rare cross—party unity in northern ireland. it was a - relatively rare cross—party unity in northern ireland. it was a united i northern ireland. it was a united view— northern ireland. it was a united view that— northern ireland. it was a united view that there _ northern ireland. it was a united view that there was _ northern ireland. it was a united view that there was a _ northern ireland. it was a united view that there was a need - northern ireland. it was a united view that there was a need for i northern ireland. it was a united view that there was a need for a | view that there was a need for a bespoke — view that there was a need for a bespoke and _ view that there was a need for a bespoke and devolved _ view that there was a need for a bespoke and devolved level- view that there was a need for a - bespoke and devolved level response to the _ bespoke and devolved level response to the pandemic— bespoke and devolved level response to the pandemic to _ bespoke and devolved level response to the pandemic to take _ bespoke and devolved level response to the pandemic to take into - bespoke and devolved level response to the pandemic to take into accountl to the pandemic to take into account each administration, _ to the pandemic to take into account each administration, social- to the pandemic to take into account each administration, social and - each administration, social and political— each administration, social and political landscape. _ each administration, social and political landscape. you - each administration, social and political landscape. you must i each administration, social and - political landscape. you must surely agree _ political landscape. you must surely agree that _ political landscape. you must surely agree that given _ political landscape. you must surely agree that given the _ political landscape. you must surely agree that given the regional- political landscape. you must surely agree that given the regional and i agree that given the regional and indeed _ agree that given the regional and indeed significant _ agree that given the regional and indeed significant geographical. indeed significant geographical differences— indeed significant geographical differences particularly- indeed significant geographical differences particularly for- indeed significant geographical differences particularly for the | differences particularly for the north— differences particularly for the north of— differences particularly for the north of ireland _ differences particularly for the north of ireland and _ differences particularly for the north of ireland and the - differences particularly for the | north of ireland and the reality differences particularly for the i north of ireland and the reality of the island — north of ireland and the reality of the island of— north of ireland and the reality of the island of ireland _ north of ireland and the reality of the island of ireland that - north of ireland and the reality of the island of ireland that any - the island of ireland that any response _ the island of ireland that any response must— the island of ireland that any response must be _ the island of ireland that any response must be flexible. l the island of ireland that any i response must be flexible. yes the island of ireland that any response must be flexible. yes i see that argument- _ response must be flexible. yes i see that argument. i _ response must be flexible. yes i see that argument. i think— response must be flexible. yes i see that argument. i think we _ response must be flexible. yes i see that argument. i think we have - response must be flexible. yes i see that argument. i think we have had i that argument. i think we have had quite _ that argument. i think we have had quite a _ that argument. i think we have had quite a lot— that argument. i think we have had quite a lot of discussion this morning _ quite a lot of discussion this morning about the downsides of regional— morning about the downsides of regional divergence in the downsides of different parts of the country taking — of different parts of the country taking a — of different parts of the country taking a different approach. the discussion this morning focused on the difference _ discussion this morning focused on the difference between _ discussion this morning focused on the difference between devon- discussion this morning focused on the difference between devon andi the difference between devon and cornwatt— the difference between devon and cornwall and — the difference between devon and cornwall and the _ the difference between devon and cornwall and the west _ the difference between devon and cornwall and the west midlands i the difference between devon and i cornwall and the west midlands and further— cornwall and the west midlands and further north — cornwall and the west midlands and further north. i— cornwall and the west midlands and further north. i am _ cornwall and the west midlands and further north. i am asking _ cornwall and the west midlands and further north. i am asking questions on behalf— further north. i am asking questions on behalf of— further north. i am asking questions on behalf of the _ further north. i am asking questions on behalf of the citizens _ further north. i am asking questions on behalf of the citizens of- on behalf of the citizens of northern— on behalf of the citizens of northern ireland, - on behalf of the citizens of northern ireland, do - on behalf of the citizens of northern ireland, do not l on behalf of the citizens of- northern ireland, do not agree that pa rticuta rty — northern ireland, do not agree that particularly when _ northern ireland, do not agree that particularly when it _ northern ireland, do not agree that particularly when it comes - northern ireland, do not agree that particularly when it comes to - northern ireland, do not agree that particularly when it comes to the i particularly when it comes to the north— particularly when it comes to the north of— particularly when it comes to the north of ireland, _ particularly when it comes to the north of ireland, only— particularly when it comes to the north of ireland, only ireland, i particularly when it comes to the i north of ireland, only ireland, that there _ north of ireland, only ireland, that there is— north of ireland, only ireland, that there is a — north of ireland, only ireland, that there is a need _ north of ireland, only ireland, that there is a need to _ north of ireland, only ireland, that there is a need to recognise - north of ireland, only ireland, that there is a need to recognise the i there is a need to recognise the geographical— there is a need to recognise the geographical features _ there is a need to recognise the geographical features of - there is a need to recognise the geographical features of that i there is a need to recognise the - geographical features of that place? when _ geographical features of that place? when it— geographical features of that place? when it comes — geographical features of that place? when it comes to _ geographical features of that place? when it comes to northern - geographical features of that place? when it comes to northern ireland i geographical features of that place? i when it comes to northern ireland he has clearly— when it comes to northern ireland he has clearly you are right that we have _ has clearly you are right that we have to — has clearly you are right that we have to take account of the greater pd me _ have to take account of the greater pd me island of ireland and what you say has _ pd me island of ireland and what you say has force. pd me island of ireland and what you say has force-— pd me island of ireland and what you say has force. thank you mrjohnson. i still think say has force. thank you mrjohnson. | still think that — say has force. thank you mrjohnson. i still think that there _ say has force. thank you mrjohnson. i still think that there is _ say has force. thank you mrjohnson. i still think that there is a... - say has force. thank you mrjohnson. i still think that there is a... you - i still think that there is a... you asked _ i still think that there is a... you asked generally about devolved administrations... gf asked generally about devolved administrations. . ._ asked generally about devolved administrations... of course. the suggestion _ administrations. .. of course. the suggestion of— administrations... of course. the suggestion of unity, _ administrations... of course. the suggestion of unity, and - administrations. .. of course. the suggestion of unity, and of- administrations... of course. the suggestion of unity, and of an i suggestion of unity, and of an integrated _ suggestion of unity, and of an integrated approach _ suggestion of unity, and of an integrated approach led - suggestion of unity, and of an integrated approach led by . integrated approach led by westminster, _ integrated approach led by westminster, must- integrated approach led byl westminster, must assume integrated approach led by - westminster, must assume that westminster— westminster, must assume that westminster is— westminster, must assume that westminster is capable - westminster, must assume that westminster is capable of - westminster, must assume that westminster is capable of real. westminster is capable of real leadership— westminster is capable of real leadership both _ westminster is capable of real leadership both in _ westminster is capable of real leadership both in public- westminster is capable of real leadership both in public and i westminster is capable of real- leadership both in public and behind closed _ leadership both in public and behind closed doors — leadership both in public and behind closed doors and _ leadership both in public and behind closed doors and it _ leadership both in public and behind closed doors and it is— leadership both in public and behind closed doors and it is capable - leadership both in public and behind closed doors and it is capable of- closed doors and it is capable of taking _ closed doors and it is capable of taking timely _ closed doors and it is capable of taking timely and _ closed doors and it is capable of taking timely and proportionate | taking timely and proportionate action— taking timely and proportionate action in— taking timely and proportionate action in response _ taking timely and proportionate action in response to— taking timely and proportionate action in response to the - taking timely and proportionate . action in response to the pandemic in all— action in response to the pandemic in all corners — action in response to the pandemic in all corners of _ action in response to the pandemic in all corners of the _ action in response to the pandemic in all corners of the uk. _ action in response to the pandemic in all corners of the uk.— in all corners of the uk. indeed that is what _ in all corners of the uk. indeed that is what westminster - in all corners of the uk. indeed that is what westminster did i in all corners of the uk. indeed i that is what westminster did and i remember— that is what westminster did and i remember vividly going to northern lretand _ remember vividly going to northern lretand in— remember vividly going to northern ireland in early 2021 and seeing how very much— ireland in early 2021 and seeing how very much faster the vaccines were being _ very much faster the vaccines were being rolled out in northern ireland than they— being rolled out in northern ireland than they were in, and nobody will thank— than they were in, and nobody will thank me — than they were in, and nobody will thank me for saying this, then they were _ thank me for saying this, then they were over— thank me for saying this, then they were over the border in the eu and there _ were over the border in the eu and there are— were over the border in the eu and there are reasons for that. mr johnson again... it _ there are reasons for that. mr johnson again... it led - there are reasons for that. mr johnson again... it led to - johnson again... it led to significant _ johnson again... it led to significant benefits - johnson again... it led to significant benefits for i johnson again... it led to| significant benefits for the johnson again... it led to - significant benefits for the people of northern ireland. does significant benefits for the people of northern ireland.— significant benefits for the people of northern ireland. does it follow that ou of northern ireland. does it follow that you would _ of northern ireland. does it follow that you would not... _ of northern ireland. does it follow that you would not... one - of northern ireland. does it follow that you would not... one nation i that you would not... one nation approach — that you would not... one nation approach ted _ that you would not... one nation approach ted by— that you would not... one nation approach led by westminster- that you would not... one nationi approach led by westminster that exercise _ approach led by westminster that exercise indecision _ approach led by westminster that exercise indecision and _ approach led by westminster that exercise indecision and in - exercise indecision and in judgmentm _ exercise indecision and in judgmentm l— exercise indecision and in judgment---_ exercise indecision and in judgment. . . exercise indecision and in 'udument... ., ., . judgment... i do not agree with your a- roach. judgment... i do not agree with your approach. divergence _ judgment... i do not agree with your approach. divergence and _ judgment... i do not agree with your approach. divergence and clarity - judgment... i do not agree with your approach. divergence and clarity of. approach. divergence and clarity of messaauin approach. divergence and clarity of messaging is _ approach. divergence and clarity of messaging is something _ approach. divergence and clarity of messaging is something that - approach. divergence and clarity of messaging is something that you l messaging is something that you touched — messaging is something that you touched on. _ messaging is something that you touched on. you _ messaging is something that you touched on, you blame _ messaging is something that you i touched on, you blame divergence messaging is something that you - touched on, you blame divergence of the devolved — touched on, you blame divergence of the devolved administrations, - touched on, you blame divergence of the devolved administrations, somei the devolved administrations, some getting _ the devolved administrations, some getting more — the devolved administrations, some getting more blame _ the devolved administrations, some getting more blame than— the devolved administrations, some getting more blame than other, - the devolved administrations, some getting more blame than other, buti getting more blame than other, but you blame _ getting more blame than other, but you blame the — getting more blame than other, but you blame the differentiation - getting more blame than other, but you blame the differentiation of - you blame the differentiation of approach — you blame the differentiation of approach for _ you blame the differentiation of approach for the _ you blame the differentiation of approach for the lack _ you blame the differentiation of approach for the lack of - you blame the differentiation of approach for the lack of clarity i you blame the differentiation of i approach for the lack of clarity on messaging — approach for the lack of clarity on messaging you _ approach for the lack of clarity on messaging. you know— approach for the lack of clarity on messaging. you know that - approach for the lack of clarity on messaging. you know that the i messaging. you know that the devolved — messaging. you know that the devolved administrations - messaging. you know that the devolved administrations and i messaging. you know that the i devolved administrations and the leaders _ devolved administrations and the leaders who— devolved administrations and the leaders who provided _ devolved administrations and the leaders who provided statements devolved administrations and the i leaders who provided statements to my lady— leaders who provided statements to my lady don't — leaders who provided statements to my lady don't necessarily _ leaders who provided statements to my lady don't necessarily agree - leaders who provided statements to| my lady don't necessarily agree with you. my lady don't necessarily agree with you that— my lady don't necessarily agree with you that the — my lady don't necessarily agree with you. that the concerns _ my lady don't necessarily agree with you. that the concerns raised - my lady don't necessarily agree with you. that the concerns raised by- you. that the concerns raised by paut— you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon— you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon is— you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon is that _ you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon is that if _ you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon is that if there - you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon is that if there is - you. that the concerns raised by paul gibbon is that if there is a i paul gibbon is that if there is a need _ paul gibbon is that if there is a need for— paul gibbon is that if there is a need for divergence _ paul gibbon is that if there is a need for divergence across - paul gibbon is that if there is a need for divergence across thei paul gibbon is that if there is a - need for divergence across the four nations— need for divergence across the four nations the — need for divergence across the four nations the communication - need for divergence across the four nations the communication around i need for divergence across the four i nations the communication around its needs— nations the communication around its needs to _ nations the communication around its needs to be _ nations the communication around its needs to be managed. _ nations the communication around its needs to be managed. this _ nations the communication around its needs to be managed. this was - needs to be managed. this was something _ needs to be managed. this was something that _ needs to be managed. this was something that was _ needs to be managed. this was something that was not - needs to be managed. this was something that was not done i needs to be managed. this was i something that was not done well needs to be managed. this was - something that was not done well at the early— something that was not done well at the early stages _ something that was not done well at the early stages of _ something that was not done well at the early stages of the _ something that was not done well at the early stages of the pandemic. i the early stages of the pandemic. the promise — the early stages of the pandemic. the promise that _ the early stages of the pandemic. the promise that i _ the early stages of the pandemic. the promise that i need - the early stages of the pandemic. the promise that i need to- the early stages of the pandemic. the promise that i need to speak| the early stages of the pandemic. i the promise that i need to speak as if he was _ the promise that i need to speak as if he was speaking _ the promise that i need to speak as if he was speaking for _ the promise that i need to speak as if he was speaking for all _ the promise that i need to speak as if he was speaking for all four- if he was speaking for all four nations— if he was speaking for all four nations rather— if he was speaking for all four nations rather than— if he was speaking for all four nations rather than giving - if he was speaking for all four. nations rather than giving space if he was speaking for all four- nations rather than giving space to the devolved — nations rather than giving space to the devolved administrations - nations rather than giving space to the devolved administrations to i the devolved administrations to manage — the devolved administrations to manage communications. - the devolved administrations to manage communications. my. the devolved administrations to i manage communications. my lady the devolved administrations to - manage communications. my lady is heard _ manage communications. my lady is heard that _ manage communications. my lady is heard that a — manage communications. my lady is heard that a great _ manage communications. my lady is heard that a great deal _ manage communications. my lady is heard that a great deal of _ manage communications. my lady is heard that a great deal of evidence i heard that a great deal of evidence about _ heard that a great deal of evidence about england _ heard that a great deal of evidence about england focused _ heard that a great deal of evidence about england focused data - heard that a great deal of evidence about england focused data are - heard that a great deal of evidence i about england focused data are being cited. _ about england focused data are being cited. about — about england focused data are being cited, about england _ about england focused data are being cited, about england or— about england focused data are being cited, about england or london - cited, about england or london centric— cited, about england or london centric approach— cited, about england or london centric approach being - cited, about england or london centric approach being adoptedi cited, about england or london i centric approach being adopted by westminsteh _ centric approach being adopted by westminster. to— centric approach being adopted by westminster. to borrow— centric approach being adopted by westminster. to borrow the - centric approach being adopted by| westminster. to borrow the words centric approach being adopted by. westminster. to borrow the words of professor _ westminster. to borrow the words of professor henderson, _ westminster. to borrow the words of professor henderson, if— westminster. to borrow the words of professor henderson, if you - westminster. to borrow the words of professor henderson, if you choose i professor henderson, if you choose not to _ professor henderson, if you choose not to be _ professor henderson, if you choose not to be clear _ professor henderson, if you choose not to be clear in _ professor henderson, if you choose not to be clear in your— professor henderson, if you choose not to be clear in your messaging . professor henderson, if you choosei not to be clear in your messaging mr johnson _ not to be clear in your messaging mr johrrsoh to— not to be clear in your messaging mr johnson to accept _ not to be clear in your messaging mr johnson to accept that _ not to be clear in your messaging mr johnson to accept that is _ not to be clear in your messaging mr johnson to accept that is your- johnson to accept that is your choice? — johnson to accept that is your choice? ~ , , johnson to accept that is your choice? ~' , , . , . choice? think the issue was that the, choice? think the issue was that the. within _ choice? think the issue was that the, within the _ choice? think the issue was that the, within the uk, _ choice? think the issue was that the, within the uk, excepting i choice? think the issue was that| the, within the uk, excepting the particular— the, within the uk, excepting the particular issues raised by the island — particular issues raised by the istand of— particular issues raised by the island of ireland, it is a simple goat— island of ireland, it is a simple goat unit, _ island of ireland, it is a simple goal unit, from time to time there was a _ goal unit, from time to time there was a distance and the message. i think— was a distance and the message. i think when— was a distance and the message. i think when the message was so important — think when the message was so important it would have been ideally, — important it would have been ideally, we would have had a complete coherence. i think sometimes people find it hard to follow _ sometimes people find it hard to follow i— sometimes people find it hard to follow. i cannot see why one area was different to another. was there a reason for — was different to another. was there a reason for that _ was different to another. was there a reason for that confusion, - was different to another. was there | a reason for that confusion, because of your— a reason for that confusion, because of your government _ a reason for that confusion, because of your government choosing - a reason for that confusion, because of your government choosing a - a reason for that confusion, because of your government choosing a lackl of your government choosing a lack of your government choosing a lack of clarity _ of your government choosing a lack of clarity and — of your government choosing a lack of clarity and message _ of your government choosing a lack of clarity and message by— of your government choosing a lack of clarity and message by not - of clarity and message by not respecting _ of clarity and message by not respecting and _ of clarity and message by not respecting and giving - of clarity and message by not respecting and giving a - of clarity and message by not respecting and giving a cleari respecting and giving a clear understanding _ respecting and giving a clear understanding of— respecting and giving a clear understanding of the - respecting and giving a clear understanding of the need . respecting and giving a clear. understanding of the need for regional— understanding of the need for regional differences. - understanding of the need for regional differences. [- understanding of the need for regional differences.- understanding of the need for regional differences. i think the reason was _ regional differences. i think the reason was the _ regional differences. i think the reason was the difference - regional differences. i think the reason was the difference in - regional differences. i think the | reason was the difference in the messaging of people being confused as to what they were being asked to do. ., ~' , ., ~ as to what they were being asked to do. . ~ . ,, as to what they were being asked to do. thank you mr campbell, if you look around _ do. thank you mr campbell, if you look around the _ do. thank you mr campbell, if you look around the pillar _ do. thank you mr campbell, if you look around the pillar must - do. thank you mr campbell, if you | look around the pillar must johnson look around the pillar mustjohnson miss harris is in the back. goad miss harris is in the back. good afternoon _ miss harris is in the back. good afternoon my — miss harris is in the back. good afternoon my lady, _ miss harris is in the back. good afternoon my lady, i— miss harris is in the back. good afternoon my lady, i appeal- miss harris is in the back. good afternoon my lady, i appeal on| miss harris is in the back. good afternoon my lady, i appeal on part ofm _ afternoon my lady, i appeal on part of... representing _ afternoon my lady, i appeal on part of... representing breed— afternoon my lady, i appeal on part of... representing breed families l afternoon my lady, i appeal on part| of... representing breed families in wales _ of... representing breed families in wales in— of... representing breed families in wales in the— of... representing breed families in wales. in the time _ of... representing breed families in wales. in the time i— of... representing breed families in wales. in the time i have _ of... representing breed families in wales. in the time i have available i wales. in the time i have available or would _ wales. in the time i have available or would like — wales. in the time i have available or would like to _ wales. in the time i have available or would like to ask— wales. in the time i have available or would like to ask you _ wales. in the time i have available or would like to ask you some - or would like to ask you some questions _ or would like to ask you some questions about— or would like to ask you some questions about the _ or would like to ask you some questions about the relations| questions about the relations between _ questions about the relations between the _ questions about the relations between the uk _ questions about the relations between the uk government| questions about the relations - between the uk government and the welsh _ between the uk government and the welsh government. _ between the uk government and the welsh government. including - between the uk government and the welsh government. including some. welsh government. including some questions _ welsh government. including some questions relating _ welsh government. including some questions relating to _ welsh government. including some questions relating to the _ welsh government. including some questions relating to the different i questions relating to the different approaches — questions relating to the different approaches during _ questions relating to the different approaches during autumn - questions relating to the different approaches during autumn 2020.| questions relating to the different. approaches during autumn 2020. a pledge _ approaches during autumn 2020. a pledge in— approaches during autumn 2020. a pledge in advance _ approaches during autumn 2020. a pledge in advance that _ approaches during autumn 2020. a pledge in advance that there - approaches during autumn 2020. a pledge in advance that there is - approaches during autumn 2020. a i pledge in advance that there is some treading _ pledge in advance that there is some treading on— pledge in advance that there is some treading on ground _ pledge in advance that there is some treading on ground that— pledge in advance that there is some treading on ground that has- pledge in advance that there is some treading on ground that has been- treading on ground that has been covered _ treading on ground that has been covered but— treading on ground that has been covered but i_ treading on ground that has been covered but i will— treading on ground that has been covered but i will be _ treading on ground that has been covered but i will be approaching | covered but i will be approaching matters — covered but i will be approaching matters from _ covered but i will be approaching matters from a _ covered but i will be approaching matters from a welsh _ covered but i will be approaching i matters from a welsh government perspective — matters from a welsh government perspective. festival— matters from a welsh government perspective. festival with - matters from a welsh government perspective. festival with regardsi perspective. festival with regards to ordination _ perspective. festival with regards to ordination and _ perspective. festival with regards | to ordination and decision—making between _ to ordination and decision—making between the — to ordination and decision—making between the four— to ordination and decision—making between the four nations - to ordination and decision—making between the four nations i - to ordination and decision—making between the four nations i would i between the four nations i would like to— between the four nations i would like to ask— between the four nations i would like to ask you _ between the four nations i would like to ask you a _ between the four nations i would like to ask you a question - between the four nations i would like to ask you a question abouti between the four nations i would i like to ask you a question about the approach _ like to ask you a question about the approach to— like to ask you a question about the approach to the _ like to ask you a question about the approach to the arrangements - like to ask you a question about the approach to the arrangements for. like to ask you a question about the i approach to the arrangements for the four nations _ approach to the arrangements for the four nations to — approach to the arrangements for the four nations to communicate - approach to the arrangements for the four nations to communicate with - four nations to communicate with each _ four nations to communicate with each other— four nations to communicate with each other and _ four nations to communicate with each other and to _ four nations to communicate with each other and to seek— four nations to communicate with each other and to seek to - four nations to communicate with each other and to seek to reach l each other and to seek to reach agreement— each other and to seek to reach agreement on _ each other and to seek to reach agreement on the _ each other and to seek to reach agreement on the way- each other and to seek to reach agreement on the way forward. i each other and to seek to reach - agreement on the way forward. first of all— agreement on the way forward. first of all i _ agreement on the way forward. first of all i would — agreement on the way forward. first of all i would like _ agreement on the way forward. first of all i would like to _ agreement on the way forward. first of all i would like to refer _ agreement on the way forward. first of all i would like to refer to - agreement on the way forward. first of all i would like to refer to a - of all i would like to refer to a passage — of all i would like to refer to a passage in— of all i would like to refer to a passage in the _ of all i would like to refer to a passage in the report - of all i would like to refer to a passage in the report which . of all i would like to refer to a i passage in the report which has of all i would like to refer to a - passage in the report which has been commissioned — passage in the report which has been commissioned by— passage in the report which has been commissioned by the _ passage in the report which has been commissioned by the inquiry- passage in the report which has been commissioned by the inquiry from . commissioned by the inquiry from professor— commissioned by the inquiry from professor henderson, _ commissioned by the inquiry from professor henderson, this - commissioned by the inquiry from professor henderson, this recordi commissioned by the inquiry from i professor henderson, this record is that in— professor henderson, this record is that in the — professor henderson, this record is that in the early— professor henderson, this record is that in the early stage _ professor henderson, this record is that in the early stage of _ professor henderson, this record is that in the early stage of the - that in the early stage of the pandemic— that in the early stage of the pandemic there _ that in the early stage of the pandemic there was - that in the early stage of the pandemic there was praise l that in the early stage of the i pandemic there was praise for that in the early stage of the - pandemic there was praise for the way that— pandemic there was praise for the way that intergovernment - pandemic there was praise for the i way that intergovernment relations were conducted _ way that intergovernment relations were conducted and _ way that intergovernment relations were conducted and the _ way that intergovernment relations were conducted and the report - way that intergovernment relations| were conducted and the report cites mr vaughan — were conducted and the report cites mr vaughan gething, _ were conducted and the report cites mr vaughan gething, health- were conducted and the report citesi mr vaughan gething, health minister for wales. _ mr vaughan gething, health minister for wales. saying _ mr vaughan gething, health minister for wales, saying about _ mr vaughan gething, health minister for wales, saying about cobra - mr vaughan gething, health minister for wales, saying about cobra the . for wales, saying about cobra the following — for wales, saying about cobra the following i— for wales, saying about cobra the following. i don't _ for wales, saying about cobra the following. i don't always - for wales, saying about cobra the following. i don't always agree i for wales, saying about cobra the i following. i don't always agree with matt hancock— following. i don't always agree with matt hancock and _ following. i don't always agree with matt hancock and i— following. i don't always agree with matt hancock and i don't— following. i don't always agree with matt hancock and i don't always . matt hancock and i don't always agree _ matt hancock and i don't always agree with — matt hancock and i don't always agree with boris _ matt hancock and i don't always agree with boris johnson - matt hancock and i don't always agree with borisjohnson but - matt hancock and i don't always . agree with borisjohnson but during our cobra _ agree with borisjohnson but during our cobra calls— agree with borisjohnson but during our cobra calls there's _ agree with borisjohnson but during our cobra calls there's been - agree with borisjohnson but during our cobra calls there's been a - our cobra calls there's been a genuine — our cobra calls there's been a genuine serious— our cobra calls there's been a genuine serious and - our cobra calls there's been a i genuine serious and grown—up our cobra calls there's been a - genuine serious and grown—up attempt to -o genuine serious and grown—up attempt to go through _ genuine serious and grown—up attempt to go through issues _ genuine serious and grown—up attempt to go through issues and _ genuine serious and grown—up attempt to go through issues and to _ genuine serious and grown—up attempt to go through issues and to reach - to go through issues and to reach agreement— to go through issues and to reach agreement on _ to go through issues and to reach agreement on finding _ to go through issues and to reach agreement on finding the - to go through issues and to reach agreement on finding the best. to go through issues and to reach. agreement on finding the best way forward _ agreement on finding the best way forward that _ agreement on finding the best way forward. that is _ agreement on finding the best way forward. that is what _ agreement on finding the best way forward. that is what he _ agreement on finding the best way forward. that is what he said. - agreement on finding the best way forward. that is what he said. the| forward. that is what he said. the report _ forward. that is what he said. the report then — forward. that is what he said. the report then goes _ forward. that is what he said. the report then goes onto _ forward. that is what he said. the report then goes onto say- forward. that is what he said. the report then goes onto say that - report then goes onto say that september— report then goes onto say that september 2020 _ report then goes onto say that september 2020 enthusiasm i report then goes onto say that i september 2020 enthusiasm had report then goes onto say that - september 2020 enthusiasm had waned and it was— september 2020 enthusiasm had waned and it was suggested _ september 2020 enthusiasm had waned and it was suggested that _ september 2020 enthusiasm had waned and it was suggested that an _ september 2020 enthusiasm had waned and it was suggested that an absence i and it was suggested that an absence of four— and it was suggested that an absence of four nations — and it was suggested that an absence of four nations meetings _ and it was suggested that an absence of four nations meetings had - and it was suggested that an absence of four nations meetings had not - of four nations meetings had not been _ of four nations meetings had not been helpful— of four nations meetings had not been helpful when— of four nations meetings had not been helpful when it _ of four nations meetings had not been helpful when it came - of four nations meetings had not been helpful when it came to - of four nations meetings had not. been helpful when it came to clarity in communications. _ been helpful when it came to clarity in communications. my— been helpful when it came to clarity in communications. my second - been helpful when it came to clarity| in communications. my second point of contact _ in communications. my second point of contact for — in communications. my second point of contact for this _ in communications. my second point of contact for this question - in communications. my second point of contact for this question is - in communications. my second point of contact for this question is that i of contact for this question is that we know— of contact for this question is that we know of— of contact for this question is that we know of course _ of contact for this question is that we know of course as _ of contact for this question is that we know of course as has - of contact for this question is that we know of course as has been i we know of course as has been mentioned _ we know of course as has been mentioned that _ we know of course as has been mentioned that cobra - we know of course as has been mentioned that cobra did - we know of course as has been mentioned that cobra did not. we know of course as has been - mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between _ mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between the — mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between the 10th _ mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between the 10th of _ mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between the 10th of may - mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between the 10th of may and - mentioned that cobra did not meet at all between the 10th of may and the i all between the 10th of may and the 22nd of— all between the 10th of may and the 22nd of september— all between the 10th of may and the 22nd of september 2020 _ all between the 10th of may and the 22nd of september 2020 and - all between the 10th of may and the 22nd of september 2020 and that l all between the 10th of may and the | 22nd of september 2020 and that of course _ 22nd of september 2020 and that of course included _ 22nd of september 2020 and that of course included the _ 22nd of september 2020 and that of course included the period _ 22nd of september 2020 and that of course included the period when - 22nd of september 2020 and that of course included the period when thei course included the period when the uk as— course included the period when the uk as a _ course included the period when the uk as a whole — course included the period when the uk as a whole was _ course included the period when the uk as a whole was coming _ course included the period when the uk as a whole was coming out - course included the period when the uk as a whole was coming out of- uk as a whole was coming out of lockdown — uk as a whole was coming out of lockdown having _ uk as a whole was coming out of lockdown having gone _ uk as a whole was coming out of lockdown having gone into- uk as a whole was coming out of- lockdown having gone into lockdown together— lockdown having gone into lockdown together it _ lockdown having gone into lockdown together it included _ lockdown having gone into lockdown together it included the _ lockdown having gone into lockdown together it included the time - lockdown having gone into lockdown together it included the time that i together it included the time that period _ together it included the time that period when— together it included the time that period when the _ together it included the time that period when the uk _ together it included the time that period when the uk and - together it included the time that period when the uk and the - together it included the time that period when the uk and the fouri period when the uk and the four nations— period when the uk and the four nations together— period when the uk and the four nations together were _ period when the uk and the four nations together were coming i period when the uk and the four. nations together were coming out period when the uk and the four- nations together were coming out of lockdown _ nations together were coming out of lockdown. bearing _ nations together were coming out of lockdown. bearing that _ nations together were coming out of lockdown. bearing that in _ nations together were coming out of lockdown. bearing that in mind - nations together were coming out of lockdown. bearing that in mind my. lockdown. bearing that in mind my questions — lockdown. bearing that in mind my questions are — lockdown. bearing that in mind my questions are due _ lockdown. bearing that in mind my questions are due agree _ lockdown. bearing that in mind my questions are due agree that - lockdown. bearing that in mind my questions are due agree that the l questions are due agree that the type of— questions are due agree that the type of endeavour— questions are due agree that the type of endeavour that _ questions are due agree that the type of endeavour that mr - questions are due agree that the | type of endeavour that mr gethin described — type of endeavour that mr gethin described in— type of endeavour that mr gethin described in the _ type of endeavour that mr gethin described in the quote, - type of endeavour that mr gethin described in the quote, are - type of endeavour that mr gethin described in the quote, are you l described in the quote, are you genuine — described in the quote, are you genuine serious— described in the quote, are you genuine serious and _ described in the quote, are you genuine serious and grown—upl described in the quote, are you - genuine serious and grown—up attempt to reach— genuine serious and grown—up attempt to reach agreements, _ genuine serious and grown—up attempt to reach agreements, you _ genuine serious and grown—up attempt to reach agreements, you agree - genuine serious and grown—up attempt to reach agreements, you agree that l to reach agreements, you agree that that was— to reach agreements, you agree that that was needed _ to reach agreements, you agree that that was needed before _ to reach agreements, you agree that that was needed before the - to reach agreements, you agree that that was needed before the —— - that was needed before the —— between — that was needed before the —— between the _ that was needed before the —— between the four— that was needed before the —— between the four nations? - that was needed before the ——i between the four nations? the that was needed before the —— - between the four nations? the second question— between the four nations? the second question is— between the four nations? the second question is do— between the four nations? the second question is do you _ between the four nations? the second question is do you agree, _ between the four nations? the second question is do you agree, and - between the four nations? the second question is do you agree, and i- question is do you agree, and i think— question is do you agree, and i think you — question is do you agree, and i think you may— question is do you agree, and i think you may have _ question is do you agree, and i think you may have indicated l question is do you agree, and i. think you may have indicated your opinion— think you may have indicated your opinion on— think you may have indicated your opinion on this _ think you may have indicated your opinion on this already— think you may have indicated your opinion on this already but - think you may have indicated your opinion on this already but i- think you may have indicated your| opinion on this already but i would like to— opinion on this already but i would like to ask— opinion on this already but i would like to ask you _ opinion on this already but i would like to ask you for— opinion on this already but i would like to ask you for any— opinion on this already but i would like to ask you for any further- like to ask you for any further reflections _ like to ask you for any further reflections on— like to ask you for any further reflections on the _ like to ask you for any further reflections on the point, - like to ask you for any further reflections on the point, do . like to ask you for any further. reflections on the point, do you agree _ reflections on the point, do you agree that _ reflections on the point, do you agree that in _ reflections on the point, do you agree that in order— reflections on the point, do you agree that in order for- reflections on the point, do you agree that in order for there - reflections on the point, do you agree that in order for there to| reflections on the point, do you . agree that in order for there to be the best— agree that in order for there to be the best chance _ agree that in order for there to be the best chance for _ agree that in order for there to be the best chance for that _ agree that in order for there to be the best chance for that type - agree that in order for there to be the best chance for that type of. the best chance for that type of engagement— the best chance for that type of engagement having _ the best chance for that type of engagement having been - the best chance for that type of - engagement having been sustained throughout— engagement having been sustained throughout the _ engagement having been sustained throughout the pandemic _ engagement having been sustained throughout the pandemic that - engagement having been sustained throughout the pandemic that they| throughout the pandemic that they needed _ throughout the pandemic that they needed to— throughout the pandemic that they needed to have _ throughout the pandemic that they needed to have been _ throughout the pandemic that they needed to have been different- needed to have been different arrangements _ needed to have been different arrangements after— needed to have been different arrangements after may- needed to have been different arrangements after may 2020i needed to have been different- arrangements after may 2020 two those — arrangements after may 2020 two those that _ arrangements after may 2020 two those that were _ arrangements after may 2020 two those that were in _ arrangements after may 2020 two those that were in place _ arrangements after may 2020 two those that were in place at - arrangements after may 2020 two those that were in place at that i those that were in place at that stage _ those that were in place at that stage and — those that were in place at that stage and i_ those that were in place at that stage and i am— those that were in place at that stage and i am not— those that were in place at that stage and i am not asking - those that were in place at that| stage and i am not asking about changing — stage and i am not asking about changing the _ stage and i am not asking about changing the responsibilities - stage and i am not asking about changing the responsibilities ofi changing the responsibilities of devolved — changing the responsibilities of devolved nations _ changing the responsibilities of devolved nations i'm _ changing the responsibilities of devolved nations i'm asking - changing the responsibilities of. devolved nations i'm asking about the machinery— devolved nations i'm asking about the machinery for— devolved nations i'm asking about the machinery for interactions - devolved nations i'm asking about i the machinery for interactions given the machinery for interactions given the framework _ the machinery for interactions given the framework that _ the machinery for interactions given the framework that we _ the machinery for interactions given the framework that we have. - the machinery for interactions given the framework that we have. [- the machinery for interactions given the framework that we have.- the framework that we have. i think the framework that we have. i think the answer — the framework that we have. i think the answer is _ the framework that we have. i think the answer is that _ the framework that we have. i think the answer is that yes, _ the framework that we have. i think the answer is that yes, and - the framework that we have. i think the answer is that yes, and then - the framework that we have. i think the answer is that yes, and then no| the answer is that yes, and then no if i the answer is that yes, and then no if i have _ the answer is that yes, and then no if i have got— the answer is that yes, and then no if i have got your questions in the right— if i have got your questions in the right order — if i have got your questions in the right order-— right order. yes you have got my cuestions right order. yes you have got my questions in _ right order. yes you have got my questions in the _ right order. yes you have got my questions in the right _ right order. yes you have got my questions in the right order. - right order. yes you have got my questions in the right order. and i questions in the right order. and our questions in the right order. and your answer _ questions in the right order. and your answer no _ questions in the right order. and your answer no is _ questions in the right order. your answer no is to my questions in the right order.- your answer no is to my suggestion that what— your answer no is to my suggestion that what was needed in order to sustain— that what was needed in order to sustain that kind of serious and grown-up— sustain that kind of serious and grown—up engagement did not need as has been _ grown—up engagement did not need as has been suggested a more predictable pattern of engagement with the _ predictable pattern of engagement with the prime minister for the devolved — with the prime minister for the devolved administrations than existed — devolved administrations than existed with the arrangements that were in— existed with the arrangements that were in place. | existed with the arrangements that were in place-— were in place. i don't think it did. i think were in place. i don't think it did. i think the _ were in place. i don't think it did. | think the uk — were in place. i don't think it did. i think the uk have _ were in place. i don't think it did. i think the uk have put _ were in place. i don't think it did. i think the uk have put was - i think the uk have put was remarkable _ i think the uk have put was remarkable and _ i think the uk have put was remarkable and i— i think the uk have put was remarkable and i think- i think the uk have put was| remarkable and i think there i think the uk have put was - remarkable and i think there was far more _ remarkable and i think there was far more that— remarkable and i think there was far more that united _ remarkable and i think there was far more that united us _ remarkable and i think there was far more that united us and _ remarkable and i think there was far more that united us and divide - remarkable and i think there was far more that united us and divide us. l remarkable and i think there was far more that united us and divide us. i| more that united us and divide us. i have _ more that united us and divide us. i have excellent— more that united us and divide us. i have excellent relations _ more that united us and divide us. i have excellent relations and - more that united us and divide us. i have excellent relations and did - have excellent relations and did have _ have excellent relations and did have excellent _ have excellent relations and did have excellent relations - have excellent relations and did have excellent relations with i have excellent relations and did i have excellent relations with mark drakeford — have excellent relations with mark drakeford i— have excellent relations with mark drakeford. i know— have excellent relations with mark drakeford. i know he _ have excellent relations with mark drakeford. i know he always - have excellent relations with mark i drakeford. i know he always wanted to have _ drakeford. i know he always wanted to have more — drakeford. i know he always wanted to have more meetings _ drakeford. i know he always wanted to have more meetings but - drakeford. i know he always wanted to have more meetings but i - drakeford. i know he always wanted to have more meetings but i did - to have more meetings but i did believe — to have more meetings but i did believe that _ to have more meetings but i did believe that michael— to have more meetings but i did believe that michael gove - to have more meetings but i did believe that michael gove was l to have more meetings but i did - believe that michael gove was doing an excellent — believe that michael gove was doing an excellent job _ believe that michael gove was doing an excellent job and _ believe that michael gove was doing an excellentjob and i _ believe that michael gove was doing an excellent job and i believe - believe that michael gove was doing an excellent job and i believe that. an excellent job and i believe that mr drake — an excellent job and i believe that mr drake had _ an excellent job and i believe that mr drake had recently— an excellent job and i believe that mr drake had recently told - an excellent job and i believe that mr drake had recently told mr- an excellent job and i believe that i mr drake had recently told mr gove that he _ mr drake had recently told mr gove that he actually— mr drake had recently told mr gove that he actually thought _ mr drake had recently told mr gove that he actually thought that - mr drake had recently told mr gove that he actually thought that the i that he actually thought that the collaboration _ that he actually thought that the collaboration had _ that he actually thought that the collaboration had been - that he actually thought that the collaboration had been very- that he actually thought that the i collaboration had been very good. that he actually thought that the - collaboration had been very good. mr collaboration had been very good. hr drake collaboration had been very good. drake food in his evidence had sensed — drake food in his evidence had sensed there was a vacuum that there wasn't _ sensed there was a vacuum that there wasn't a _ sensed there was a vacuum that there wasn't a possibility of speaking to be promised a sufficiently and he has referred to a need for regular track— has referred to a need for regular track points with the prime minister. do not agree that had there _ minister. do not agree that had there been a greater opportunity for that to _ there been a greater opportunity for that to happen then that would have meant _ that to happen then that would have meant that it would have been more possible _ meant that it would have been more possible and would likely that differences could have been ironed out and _ differences could have been ironed out and they could have been a more coherent— out and they could have been a more coherent and coordinated approach forward _ coherent and coordinated approach forward between the four nations? | forward between the four nations? [ think forward between the four nations? think that forward between the four nations? i think that every panellist would like to— think that every panellist would like to do— think that every panellist would like to do much— think that every panellist would like to do much more _ think that every panellist would like to do much more the - think that every panellist would| like to do much more the whole think that every panellist would - like to do much more the whole time. i like to do much more the whole time. i had _ like to do much more the whole time. i had to— like to do much more the whole time. i had to do— like to do much more the whole time. i had to do whatever _ like to do much more the whole time. i had to do whatever i _ like to do much more the whole time. i had to do whatever i could _ like to do much more the whole time. i had to do whatever i could to - i had to do whatever i could to fight _ i had to do whatever i could to fight covid _ i had to do whatever i could to fight covid '— i had to do whatever i could to fight covid. i thought - i had to do whatever i could to fight covid. i thought that - i had to do whatever i could to| fight covid. i thought that what i had to do whatever i could to - fight covid. i thought that what we had going — fight covid. i thought that what we had going was— fight covid. i thought that what we had going was pretty— fight covid. i thought that what we had going was pretty good - fight covid. i thought that what we had going was pretty good and - fight covid. i thought that what we had going was pretty good and i. fight covid. i thought that what we. had going was pretty good and i felt that we _ had going was pretty good and i felt that we were — had going was pretty good and i felt that we were doing _ had going was pretty good and i felt that we were doing a _ had going was pretty good and i felt that we were doing a good - had going was pretty good and i felt that we were doing a good job - had going was pretty good and i felt that we were doing a good job of. that we were doing a good job of interacting — that we were doing a good job of interacting with— that we were doing a good job of interacting with the _ that we were doing a good job of interacting with the devolved - interacting with the devolved administrations. _ interacting with the devolved administrations. if— interacting with the devolved administrations. if i- interacting with the devolved administrations. if i thought| interacting with the devolved - administrations. if i thought that was not — administrations. if i thought that was not the _ administrations. if i thought that was not the case, _ administrations. if i thought that was not the case, if— administrations. if i thought that was not the case, if i _ administrations. if i thought that was not the case, if i felt - administrations. if i thought that was not the case, if i felt there l was not the case, if i felt there was not the case, if i felt there was a — was not the case, if i felt there was a serious _ was not the case, if i felt there was a serious breakdown - was not the case, if i felt there was a serious breakdown of - was not the case, if i felt there - was a serious breakdown of relations between _ was a serious breakdown of relations between the — was a serious breakdown of relations between the centre _ was a serious breakdown of relations between the centre and _ was a serious breakdown of relations between the centre and the - was a serious breakdown of relations| between the centre and the devolved administrations— between the centre and the devolved administrations i— between the centre and the devolved administrations i would _ between the centre and the devolved administrations i would have - administrations i would have intervened _ administrations i would have intervened but _ administrations i would have intervened but that - administrations i would have intervened but that did - administrations i would have intervened but that did not l administrations i would have - intervened but that did not happen. so to— intervened but that did not happen. so to summarise _ intervened but that did not happen. so to summarise you _ intervened but that did not happen. so to summarise you evidently - intervened but that did not happen. so to summarise you evidently felti so to summarise you evidently felt that the _ so to summarise you evidently felt that the arrangements that were in place _ that the arrangements that were in place were — that the arrangements that were in place were sufficient to promote a forging _ place were sufficient to promote a forging of — place were sufficient to promote a forging of a coordinated four nations— forging of a coordinated four nations approach? i think that is your— nations approach? i think that is your indication. | nations approach? i think that is your indication.— nations approach? i think that is your indication. i think that within the limits of— your indication. i think that within the limits of what _ your indication. i think that within the limits of what was _ your indication. i think that within the limits of what was going - your indication. i think that within the limits of what was going to i your indication. i think that within i the limits of what was going to be politically— the limits of what was going to be politically realistic— the limits of what was going to be politically realistic given - the limits of what was going to be politically realistic given the - politically realistic given the prerogatives _ politically realistic given the prerogatives of _ politically realistic given the prerogatives of the - politically realistic given the | prerogatives of the devolved administrations— prerogatives of the devolved administrations i— prerogatives of the devolved administrations i think- prerogatives of the devolved administrations i think that i prerogatives of the devolved i administrations i think that is entirely— administrations i think that is entirely right~ _ administrations i think that is entirely right.— administrations i think that is entirel riuht. ., . . . . entirely right. you are aware that that is a view— entirely right. you are aware that that is a view that _ entirely right. you are aware that that is a view that is _ entirely right. you are aware that that is a view that is not - entirely right. you are aware that that is a view that is not shared l that is a view that is not shared across— that is a view that is not shared across the _ that is a view that is not shared across the devolved administrations. as i across the devolved administrations. as i said _ across the devolved administrations. as i said to _ across the devolved administrations. as i said tojust now i am not certain— as i said tojust now i am not certain that _ as i said tojust now i am not certain that how— as i said tojust now i am not certain that how strongly i as i said tojust now i am not| certain that how strongly your pointers — certain that how strongly your pointers is _ certain that how strongly your pointers is echoed. _ certain that how strongly your pointers is echoed. actually. certain that how strongly your pointers is echoed. actually ii certain that how strongly your- pointers is echoed. actually i have heard _ pointers is echoed. actually i have heard that — pointers is echoed. actually i have heard that mr— pointers is echoed. actually i have heard that mr drakeford _ pointers is echoed. actually i have heard that mr drakeford in - heard that mr drakeford in particular— heard that mr drakeford in particular feels— heard that mr drakeford in particular feels that - heard that mr drakeford in particular feels that the i heard that mr drakeford in i particular feels that the level of cooperation— particular feels that the level of cooperation was— particular feels that the level of cooperation was good. - particular feels that the level of cooperation was good. intell- particular feels that the level of cooperation was good. well that is not cooperation was good. well that is rrot evidence _ cooperation was good. well that is not evidence that _ cooperation was good. well that is not evidence that has _ cooperation was good. well that is not evidence that has been - cooperation was good. well that is i not evidence that has been submitted to a module to in this inquiry and that is— to a module to in this inquiry and that is not— to a module to in this inquiry and that is not consistent with the written — that is not consistent with the written evidence that has been submitted on behalf of mr drakeford. i submitted on behalf of mr drakeford. i would _ submitted on behalf of mr drakeford. i would like to ask you about the phrase _ i would like to ask you about the phrase that you have used on the point _ phrase that you have used on the point that— phrase that you have used on the point that is made in your witness statement — point that is made in your witness statement where you stated that it is optically wrong for the uk prime minister— is optically wrong for the uk prime minister to— is optically wrong for the uk prime minister to hold regular meetings with other devolved administration ministers — with other devolved administration ministers. this of course has been highlighted previously. it is a statement that you made not to a whatsapp message, it is not in somebody's diary, this is in your statement. _ somebody's diary, this is in your statement, would you agree that as a prime _ statement, would you agree that as a prime minister in a time of a public health— prime minister in a time of a public health crisis — prime minister in a time of a public health crisis that he should have decided — health crisis that he should have decided what were the appropriate arrangements for consultation with the devolved administrations solely on the _ the devolved administrations solely on the basis of what would be best to further— on the basis of what would be best to further the on the basis of what would be best to furtherthe aim on the basis of what would be best to further the aim of effective and effective — to further the aim of effective and effective response to the pandemic and not _ effective response to the pandemic and not your views about optics. | and not your views about optics. [ think and not your views about optics. think that... and not your views about optics. i think that... that was the reason we did it _ think that... that was the reason we did it because — think that... that was the reason we did it because the _ think that... that was the reason we did it because the duchy— think that... that was the reason we did it because the duchy of- did it because the duchy of lancaster— did it because the duchy of lancaster was _ did it because the duchy of lancaster was well- did it because the duchy of lancaster was well placed i did it because the duchy of. lancaster was well placed to conciliate _ lancaster was well placed to conciliate and _ lancaster was well placed to conciliate and bring - lancaster was well placed to conciliate and bring people i lancaster was well placed to - conciliate and bring people together and to _ conciliate and bring people together and to get _ conciliate and bring people together and to get on— conciliate and bring people together and to get on with _ conciliate and bring people together and to get on with explaining - conciliate and bring people together and to get on with explaining the i and to get on with explaining the position — and to get on with explaining the position i— and to get on with explaining the osition. , . ., and to get on with explaining the osition. , . . , , ., position. i understand that is your view mrjohnson _ position. i understand that is your view mrjohnson but _ position. i understand that is your view mrjohnson but with - position. i understand that is your view mrjohnson but with regards | position. i understand that is your l view mrjohnson but with regards to your statement about optics it cannot — your statement about optics it cannot be right that optics are a factor— cannot be right that optics are a factor when deciding what is the best setup for engagement with the other devolved governments during the pandemic, you would agree with that? _ the pandemic, you would agree with that? trip— the pandemic, you would agree with that? g , ., .,, that? my considerations were... the risk to be absolutely _ that? my considerations were... the risk to be absolutely frank _ that? my considerations were... the risk to be absolutely frank with i that? my considerations were... the risk to be absolutely frank with the l risk to be absolutely frank with the inquiry. _ risk to be absolutely frank with the inquiry. the — risk to be absolutely frank with the inquiry. the risk— risk to be absolutely frank with the inquiry, the risk of— risk to be absolutely frank with the inquiry, the risk of pointless - inquiry, the risk of pointless political— inquiry, the risk of pointless political friction— inquiry, the risk of pointless political friction and - inquiry, the risk of pointless - political friction and grandstanding because~ ~~ — political friction and grandstanding becausem the _ political friction and grandstanding because... the well— known - political friction and grandstanding i because... the well—known opposition of some _ because... the well—known opposition of some of— because... the well—known opposition of some of the — because... the well—known opposition of some of the devolved _ of some of the devolved administrations- of some of the devolved administrations to - of some of the devolved administrations to the l of some of the devolved _ administrations to the government and also _ administrations to the government and also to— administrations to the government and also to avoid _ administrations to the government and also to avoid unnecessary- administrations to the governmenti and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and i_ and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and i thought— and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and i thought the _ and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and i thought the way— and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and i thought the way to _ and also to avoid unnecessary leaks and i thought the way to minimise i and i thought the way to minimise divergences— and i thought the way to minimise divergences and _ and i thought the way to minimise divergences and tangents - and i thought the way to minimise i divergences and tangents tensions, you can _ divergences and tangents tensions, you can quarrel— divergences and tangents tensions, you can quarrel with _ divergences and tangents tensions, you can quarrel with this, _ divergences and tangents tensions, you can quarrel with this, but - divergences and tangents tensions, you can quarrel with this, but my. you can quarrel with this, but my feeling _ you can quarrel with this, but my feeling was — you can quarrel with this, but my feeling was to _ you can quarrel with this, but my feeling was to take _ you can quarrel with this, but my feeling was to take the _ you can quarrel with this, but my. feeling was to take the temperature down and _ feeling was to take the temperature down and to— feeling was to take the temperature down and to have _ feeling was to take the temperature down and to have a _ feeling was to take the temperature down and to have a businesslike i feeling was to take the temperature| down and to have a businesslike and practical— down and to have a businesslike and practical meetings _ down and to have a businesslike and practical meetings between - down and to have a businesslike and practical meetings between the i down and to have a businesslike and practical meetings between the cdli practical meetings between the cdl and the _ practical meetings between the cdl and the devolved _ practical meetings between the cdl and the devolved administrations i practical meetings between the cdl i and the devolved administrations and that is— and the devolved administrations and that is what— and the devolved administrations and that is what we — and the devolved administrations and that is what we did. _ and the devolved administrations and that is what we did. by— and the devolved administrations and that is what we did. by and _ and the devolved administrations and that is what we did. by and large i and the devolved administrations and that is what we did. by and large it i that is what we did. by and large it was extremely _ that is what we did. by and large it was extremely effective. _ that is what we did. by and large it was extremely effective. [- that is what we did. by and large it was extremely effective.— was extremely effective. i have heard your _ was extremely effective. i have heard your answer, _ was extremely effective. i have heard your answer, i _ was extremely effective. i have heard your answer, i will i was extremely effective. i have heard your answer, i will move | was extremely effective. i have i heard your answer, i will move onto the next _ heard your answer, i will move onto the next question and i would like to ask_ the next question and i would like to ask you — the next question and i would like to ask you now to address please how the uk _ to ask you now to address please how the uk government regarded the welsh firebreak_ the uk government regarded the welsh firebreak which was in place from the 23rd — firebreak which was in place from the 23rd of— firebreak which was in place from the 23rd of october to the 9th of november 2020. the first question is that when— november 2020. the first question is that when the government of the uk was informed by the welsh commitment of its plan _ was informed by the welsh commitment of its plan to enter a firebreak which — of its plan to enter a firebreak which as— of its plan to enter a firebreak which as we know is short lockdown, did this _ which as we know is short lockdown, did this trigger any consideration by did this trigger any consideration tiy the _ did this trigger any consideration by the uk — did this trigger any consideration by the uk government alignments of england _ by the uk government alignments of england with wales by which both hations— england with wales by which both nations would move forward together in a lockdown together. that is bearing — in a lockdown together. that is bearing in _ in a lockdown together. that is bearing in mind that the uk government announced a national lockdown— government announced a national lockdown for england on the 31st of october. _ lockdown for england on the 31st of october, so owning a few days later, the duration— october, so owning a few days later, the duration of which was four weeks to the _ the duration of which was four weeks to the 2nd _ the duration of which was four weeks to the 2nd of december. of the duration of which was four weeks to the 2nd of december.— to the 2nd of december. of course i ave to the 2nd of december. of course i gave consideration, _ to the 2nd of december. of course i gave consideration, i _ to the 2nd of december. of course i gave consideration, i cannot - gave consideration, i cannot remember— gave consideration, i cannot remember the _ gave consideration, i cannot remember the exact- gave consideration, i cannot remember the exact date i gave consideration, i cannot. remember the exact date when gave consideration, i cannot- remember the exact date when i saw the news _ remember the exact date when i saw the news of— remember the exact date when i saw the news of the — remember the exact date when i saw the news of the welsh _ remember the exact date when i saw the news of the welsh firebreak, - the news of the welsh firebreak, wheh _ the news of the welsh firebreak, when i _ the news of the welsh firebreak, when i was — the news of the welsh firebreak, when i was informed _ the news of the welsh firebreak, when i was informed about- the news of the welsh firebreak, when i was informed about it, i. the news of the welsh firebreak, . when i was informed about it, i am sure that _ when i was informed about it, i am sure that we — when i was informed about it, i am sure that we thought _ when i was informed about it, i am sure that we thought about - when i was informed about it, i am sure that we thought about seeing | when i was informed about it, i am. sure that we thought about seeing if we could _ sure that we thought about seeing if we could do— sure that we thought about seeing if we could do things _ sure that we thought about seeing if we could do things together. - sure that we thought about seeing if we could do things together. we - sure that we thought about seeing if. we could do things together. we have .one we could do things together. we have gone extensively— we could do things together. we have gone extensively this _ we could do things together. we have gone extensively this morning - gone extensively this morning through— gone extensively this morning through my— gone extensively this morning through my thinking _ gone extensively this morning through my thinking around i gone extensively this morning . through my thinking around that issue _ through my thinking around that issue and — through my thinking around that issue and that _ through my thinking around that issue and that is _ through my thinking around that issue and that is why— through my thinking around that issue and that is why we - through my thinking around that issue and that is why we went. through my thinking around that| issue and that is why we went for the option— issue and that is why we went for the option that _ issue and that is why we went for the option that we _ issue and that is why we went for the option that we did. _ issue and that is why we went for the option that we did.— issue and that is why we went for the option that we did. were there any thinking _ the option that we did. were there any thinking that _ the option that we did. were there any thinking that it _ the option that we did. were there any thinking that it would - the option that we did. were there any thinking that it would be - the option that we did. were there | any thinking that it would be better for both— any thinking that it would be better for both nations to be acting in a coordinated way together. i�*m for both nations to be acting in a coordinated way together. i'm sure that we would _ coordinated way together. i'm sure that we would have, _ coordinated way together. i'm sure that we would have, i _ coordinated way together. i'm sure that we would have, i don't - coordinated way together. i'm sure . that we would have, i don't remember any specific _ that we would have, i don't remember any specific conversations _ that we would have, i don't remember any specific conversations about - any specific conversations about this but— any specific conversations about this but i— any specific conversations about this but i am _ any specific conversations about this but i am sure _ any specific conversations about this but i am sure that- any specific conversations about this but i am sure that we - any specific conversations about this but i am sure that we were i this but i am sure that we were thinking — this but i am sure that we were thinking the _ this but i am sure that we were thinking the whole _ this but i am sure that we were thinking the whole time - this but i am sure that we were thinking the whole time about. this but i am sure that we were i thinking the whole time about the choice _ thinking the whole time about the choice between _ thinking the whole time about the choice between a _ thinking the whole time about the choice between a firebreak, - thinking the whole time about the choice between a firebreak, a - choice between a firebreak, a lockdown, _ choice between a firebreak, a lockdown, and _ choice between a firebreak, a lockdown, and intensifying, l choice between a firebreak, a. lockdown, and intensifying, all choice between a firebreak, a - lockdown, and intensifying, all the things— lockdown, and intensifying, all the things we — lockdown, and intensifying, all the things we have _ lockdown, and intensifying, all the things we have discussed - lockdown, and intensifying, all the things we have discussed today. it| things we have discussed today. it nright— things we have discussed today. it might have — things we have discussed today. it might have worked _ things we have discussed today. it might have worked wales - things we have discussed today. it might have worked wales and - things we have discussed today. it - might have worked wales and england acting _ might have worked wales and england acting together — might have worked wales and england acting together but _ might have worked wales and england acting together but it _ might have worked wales and england acting together but it might _ might have worked wales and england acting together but it might have - acting together but it might have not. acting together but it might have not it— acting together but it might have not it would _ acting together but it might have not. it would be _ acting together but it might have not. it would be right _ acting together but it might have not. it would be right to - acting together but it might have not. it would be right to make i acting together but it might havel not. it would be right to make the point _ not. it would be right to make the point is _ not. it would be right to make the point is that — not. it would be right to make the point is that that _ not. it would be right to make the point is that that would _ not. it would be right to make the point is that that would have - not. it would be right to make the point is that that would have been one of— point is that that would have been one of the — point is that that would have been one of the advantages _ point is that that would have been one of the advantages had - point is that that would have been one of the advantages had we - point is that that would have been . one of the advantages had we chosen to -o one of the advantages had we chosen to go that _ one of the advantages had we chosen to go that way — one of the advantages had we chosen to go that way but _ one of the advantages had we chosen to go that way but we _ one of the advantages had we chosen to go that way but we didn't. - one of the advantages had we chosen to go that way but we didn't. one - one of the advantages had we chosen to go that way but we didn't.- to go that way but we didn't. one of the oints to go that way but we didn't. one of the points that _ to go that way but we didn't. one of the points that you _ to go that way but we didn't. one of the points that you have _ to go that way but we didn't. one of the points that you have made - to go that way but we didn't. one of the points that you have made in i the points that you have made in your— the points that you have made in your witness statement that you can understand — your witness statement that you can understand why wales decided on a firebreak— understand why wales decided on a firebreak as the incidents in wales was high, — firebreak as the incidents in wales was high, that is your observation. you going — was high, that is your observation. you going to — was high, that is your observation. you going to state that your view that the — you going to state that your view that the welsh firebreak was not affected — that the welsh firebreak was not affected. he said it doesn't seem to have made — affected. he said it doesn't seem to have made a difference in wales. i would _ have made a difference in wales. i would like — have made a difference in wales. i would like to ask you in hindsight, what _ would like to ask you in hindsight, what do _ would like to ask you in hindsight, what do you think would have been the right— what do you think would have been the right course for wales. is it the right course for wales. is it the case — the right course for wales. is it the case that wales should have had a longer— the case that wales should have had a longer lockdown, we know of course the lockdown in england was four weeks. _ the lockdown in england was four weeks, should wales have had a four-week— weeks, should wales have had a four—week long lockdown or should it have had _ four—week long lockdown or should it have had its— four—week long lockdown or should it have had its lockdown earlier question— have had its lockdown earlier question marks i have had its lockdown earlier question marks— question marks i think it was strikina question marks i think it was striking that _ question marks i think it was striking that we _ question marks i think it was striking that we ended - question marks i think it was striking that we ended up - question marks i think it was i striking that we ended up doing question marks i think it was - striking that we ended up doing the same _ striking that we ended up doing the same sort _ striking that we ended up doing the same sort of— striking that we ended up doing the same sort of thing. _ striking that we ended up doing the same sort of thing. i— striking that we ended up doing the same sort of thing. i think- striking that we ended up doing the same sort of thing. i think that- striking that we ended up doing the same sort of thing. i think that it i same sort of thing. i think that it was an— same sort of thing. i think that it was an illustration _ same sort of thing. i think that it was an illustration of— same sort of thing. i think that it was an illustration of how - same sort of thing. i think that it was an illustration of how the - same sort of thing. i think that it was an illustration of how the uk tended. — was an illustration of how the uk tended. in— was an illustration of how the uk tended, in spite _ was an illustration of how the uk tended, in spite of— was an illustration of how the uk tended, in spite of everything, . tended, in spite of everything, sometimes _ tended, in spite of everything, sometimes the _ tended, in spite of everything, sometimes the politics - tended, in spite of everything, sometimes the politics seem i tended, in spite of everything, l sometimes the politics seem to suggest — sometimes the politics seem to sun est. . ~' ,, sometimes the politics seem to sun est. . ~ ,, ., ~' sometimes the politics seem to sun est. . ~ ,, ., ,, ., suggest. thank you, i would like to ask ou suggest. thank you, i would like to ask you know _ suggest. thank you, i would like to ask you know about _ suggest. thank you, i would like to ask you know about clarity - suggest. thank you, i would like to ask you know about clarity and - ask you know about clarity and messaging. one of the points that you made — messaging. one of the points that you made in your evidence yesterday was that— you made in your evidence yesterday was that clarity and unity of messaging was very important. i would _ messaging was very important. i would like — messaging was very important. i would like to ask you about the change — would like to ask you about the change of— would like to ask you about the change of message from the uk government stay at home to stay alert— government stay at home to stay alert and _ government stay at home to stay alert and how that was handled. by way of— alert and how that was handled. by way of context to the question the change _ way of context to the question the change was related to the route out of lockdown and if i could ask to pull up — of lockdown and if i could ask to pull up on — of lockdown and if i could ask to pull up on the screen a document. that is there, thank you very much. what _ that is there, thank you very much. what you _ that is there, thank you very much. what you see — that is there, thank you very much. what you see there is a record compiled — what you see there is a record compiled by the principal private secretary — compiled by the principal private secretary of the first minister for wales— secretary of the first minister for wales and — secretary of the first minister for wales and it is an e—mail dated the eighth— wales and it is an e—mail dated the eighth of— wales and it is an e—mail dated the eighth of the fifth 2020 and it is a record _ eighth of the fifth 2020 and it is a record of— eighth of the fifth 2020 and it is a record of a — eighth of the fifth 2020 and it is a record of a meeting with mr gove on the 8th— record of a meeting with mr gove on the 8th of— record of a meeting with mr gove on the 8th of may on the devolved administrations first ministers and it proceeds the cobra meeting which was on _ it proceeds the cobra meeting which was on the _ it proceeds the cobra meeting which was on the 10th of may which dealt with the _ was on the 10th of may which dealt with the announcement or discussion prior to _ with the announcement or discussion prior to the _ with the announcement or discussion prior to the announcement of the road _ prior to the announcement of the road out — prior to the announcement of the road out of— prior to the announcement of the road out of lockdown and if i could refer— road out of lockdown and if i could refer to _ road out of lockdown and if i could refer to some passages briefly in thisiust — refer to some passages briefly in thisjust to introduce refer to some passages briefly in this just to introduce the refer to some passages briefly in thisjust to introduce the question that i_ thisjust to introduce the question that i would like to