tonight on all in. a ■ç >> i know i'm not a young man. to state the obvious. >> about last night through the eyes of the undecided. >> i think this debate was bad for our country. we are in a very difficult spot as a nation. >> tonight, how gettable voters view the debate, and what it means to the x essential threat of a trump presidency. >> i would vote for biden even if he was dead. and i'm a republican. plus, as barack obama enters the conversation, the historical precedent and practical reality of picking a candidate in the convention. and today's radical opinion from the supreme court as we finally get word, a decision on trump's immunity for insurrection is finally up next. all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. the first thing to keep ■çin mi in the aftermath of last night's presidential debate is that if you are watching this program right now, you are almost certainly not the person whose opinion about it is the most important. at least electorally. you are almost certainly not an undecided voter. we will see what they have to say about it as the polling comes in. you probably felt a little bit like some of these debate watchers around the country, captured by the associated press, reacting in shock, horror, cringe, disappointment to joe biden's performance and donald trump's blustery lies. like most of them, your vote was not up for grabs. the question is what truly undecided voters came away thinking. and for many of them, there was deep disappointment with both candidates. >> i felt terrible for biden.■ç i mean, that was really sad. >> i thought he stumbled. you know, it happens. i thought trump was unhinged for 90 straight minutes. >> double frustrated. >> double frustrated. what about you? >> double cringe. >> trump did his litany of lies and biden was a disappointment. >> we have two candidates that have embarrassed what we say is the president. we are doomed. i honestly cannot get past the embarrassment, the first five minutes. it was horrifying. >> so, i think what we just witnessed, the feeling i had inside was trump, no, he lied through the whole thing. and biden is oh, no, he is really in bad shape. and can he even run in the rest of the election or take the white house again? i just don't see how that ■çwou work. >> the big take away from last night is in many ways the most cliche. this is where you find on any street corner, right? you hear it everywhere. the take away, i can't believe it's these two guys. but here's the thing about last night. the republican party has become kind of an authoritarian cult of personality. a top-down, fall in line kind of operation where even when the guy at the top of the ticket is found guilty of 34 counts by unanimous jury vote for paying off the adult film actress he had an affair with, to manipulate an election, not only do republicans continue to support him but they all dress up like him to go stand outside of the court defending him. and because that inherent difference in the two parties, their coalitions, there'd this mq!q republican politics today, i q!q mean no one who watched trump last night and thought themselves if we had nikki haley or someone else we would probably be up double digits, right? right? they should be saying that, because it is obviously true. but no one is. because that is how republicans roll. democrats rolled differently. as we all know, don't we? kratz, well they are beset by constant angst, and joe biden's performance last night has probably the worst of that dread and self-doubt. i will say, it is not an irrational, hyperbolic, knee- jerk reaction in this case. for this reason. for months, we have looked at this race, and i think genuinely remarkable domestic policy record of this■ç residen coming out of the wreckage of covid. and it is remarkable and lots of ways. him the polling multiple legislative victories out of a largely divided congress. shepherding and in a roaring economy after the disaster that was the trump first term. and being vocal about the threat a second one poses. and you look at that race, and you wonder, with donald trump of all people as the nominee, how is this basically a coin flip for anyone? and there have been two basic answers. one is that the first bout of serious high inflation that anyone had experienced in the country in 30 years has made incumbent parties and leaders are unpopular across the developed world. germany, france, u.s., canada. in fact, biden is doing a lot better than most of those other incumbents in those other countries. both in terms of economic growth and recovery, and in pulling. and there is the second answer, which is that joe biden is 81 years old and he is running forç a second term that, if he won, he would complete when he is 85. a presidency ages people. we know that. it is another cliche. we have watched it. you have all seen the before and after pictures, right? and everyone saw it last night. it has long been reflected in the polling. as my colleague pointed out last night before the debate in the latest new york times college poll. >> passed a very specific question, it was this. is the aid of a candidate such an issue that the candidate is not capable of handling the job of president? when after that way, it is basically a 3-1 difference. 45% said that applies to joe biden, only 16% said that applies to donald trump. >> ■9emarkable, right? that the race is tied with that 45%. and all that polling also shows a bit of a silver lining for democrats, because it is not like the party or their agenda is broadly unpopular, or this anger at incumbents is widely shared. quite the opposite. right now we look at swing states, from ohio, to wisconsin, to nevada, to pennsylvania, you see consistently and 5-7 point gap between where joe biden is pulling and where other statewide democratic incumbents, apples to apples, or polling. the undercard is doing quite well right now. the big guy, not so much. and i think, again, we circle around different expeditions. but where i found myself, occam's razor, it does come back to these two issues. that fundamentally people don't like the cost of groceries under biden, and biden is old. and you can't really control the cost of groceries. the question of■ç is biden too old to have the best shot at winning this race, well, that is been haunting the conversation the whole time. and it exploded in the open last night in the debate. biden himself addressed it today. >> i know i'm not a young man. to state the obvious. well, i know. folks, i folks, i don't walk as easy as i used to. i don't speak as smoothly as i used qu9ñ i don't debate as well as i used to. but i know what i do know. i know how to tell the truth. i know right from wrong. and i know how to do this job. i know how to get things done. i know, like millions of americans know, when you get knocked down you get back up. >> joe biden has been in elected office for the 50 years . he is quite a capable politician who has run and won a lot of races in his time, including a 29-year-old man. he beat trump the first time. he's got a good record. his future looks a lot more uncertain.■ç the new york times editorial board took the unprecedented step of calling for biden to leave the race today. writing that there is no reason for the party to risk the stability and security of the country by forcing voters to choose between mr. trump's deficiencies and those of mr. biden. it is too big a bet to simply hope that americans will overlook or discount esther biden's agent infirmary they see with their own eyes. if biden were to step aside, and the signals being sent from inside the white house and the campaign party is that he won't. but if you are, the party would have to figure out a way to choose another nominee. we are going to get into that a little bit, because i think it's worth discussing. suffice to say, the logistics antipolitics would become located. it is also ■ça move that would come with its own risks. there are no guarantees in politics. all that being said, i think the quantitative and qualitative data, the polling and the eye test both tell us that this is probably not the strongest possible democratic candidate to beat a wildly dangerous man who poses an accidental threat to democracy. ultimately that is now for joe biden to decide. he one of the primary, he got the most delegates, he is the democratic party nominee, and he will be the party nominee unless he decides not to be. working at the last biting campaign, she served as the chief spokesperson for vice president kamala harris. she is now the cohost of the weekend on msnbc and she joins me now. how are you processing, you worked in that white house. you know the vice president, you know the president. you are also now in this world. the chorus from what i would say our elite voices inside the democratic party centerleft■ç, newspaper columnists and pundits, the editorial board of the new york times, and the elected officials texting anonymously. pretty freaked out. what do you think is happening inside the world of the people that are all going to ultimately going to do anything if anything were to be done? >> i think, and i will preface this with anita dunn is joining our show tomorrow on the weekend, who is an adviser to the president. she is joining in her personal capacity, not as a white house official. so we are going to after these questions and talk to her. but knowing the folks that i know, my former colleagues, and having reached out and heading conversations with folks, to glean what they are thinking. they are unchanged in large part. which ■ça lot of folks have not that that is not a great thing. i will say this. they all knew during that debate last night that he didn't do well. which is why i was confused about why the president went out right after that debate at the watch party, where he had a lot more energy than he did on the debate stage, and even at the waffle house in that off the record stop where he was with the first lady. when he was asked himself about how he thought he did, he said i did great. it is not hard to debate a liar. that does not sound like a focus on the president immediately after the debate were honest with him and told him the truth. it was very clear from what we saw today from joe biden that he himself had seen some of the clips, that he himself had talked to his aides, and he hmáq&f had decided he did not do well and he also wanted to do something about it. i like to say, i think joe biden saved himself today, and that was the best possible thing from a strategist perspective that could have gone out and happened today. now, what happens going forward is the question. joe biden cannot have another debate like he had last night. i think that is very clear. but how is the campaign and the white house shoring up particularly elected officials? the elected officials, i think their handwringing, if you will, warranted. because they are on the ballot. every single member of the house of representatives. yeah, it is not just worried about us, we are worried about ourselves. often times elected officials are the worst ones, you have to talk to them immediately. >> again, i am being honest here that i feel torn about all of this. the one thing that does seem clear to me is that■ç if you lo at the polling right now, you look at the data we have, it is roughly a tight race and joe biden is losing to donald trump on the electoral college map. and i think they know that. so he is behind. it is not crazy, it is not like oh, my god. it is close, but he is behind. donald trump winning would be very bad. so what is the theory of how you go from losing the race to winning it? and, as best as i can tell, the theory is the voters are going to come back home to us as they realize donald trump is donald trump. and maybe that is the case, but that seems like the theory now and i'd think it is crazy for people to think that doesn't seem a strong enough theory about how this race gets won. >> if that were only at, i would be ■çlike i don't know. i think that is part of it. and you know, this interview recently with john holman where she talked at length about their strategy. and i think it is part that folks are hoping, that the biden folks are hoping that the voters will see this contrast. now, looking at last night's contrast, the performance was, joe biden obviously did not do well on the performance. but donald trump, when it came to the substance and the content he literally sounded insane. i am still trying to figure out what a black job is. and i had a black job right now? i don't know. >> no, you are in a bounce back job. you thought it was a black job, it's a bounce back job. >> okay, they changed the label since i got here. okay. donald trump still needs to answer these questions. but seriously, i do ■çthink tha it is part the contrast and part that they are building up an infrastructure. now, we have talked a lot about the polls, and now last night's debate, what the candidates and the campaigns are saying. but not as much about the various campaign infrastructures. and infrastructure in campaigning, that is what wins elections. i am looking to see what the infrastructure of the biden campaign apparatus is doing, how they are engaging in these key battleground states across the country. looking back to 2020 and thinking about arizona, georgia, and wisconsin. those three states, about 44,000 votes made the difference in joe biden winning the extra, besting donald trump in the electoral college by 74 electoral college votes. without those four states, 44,000 votes, joe biden is not the president.■ç i am looking at the infrastructure in the states. but also, what is the trump campaign doing? is that enough for donald trump to have had a good performance, but shaky content? on the debate stage, if the campaign does not have an structure? >> all of that is true. that is a positive path for it. i guess the last question here is you said this last night, you and i were talking and i said look. this is all fantasy football and unless and until the people closest to joe biden have a this is not working conversation. and i don't think they're going to do that. i am just got checking with you. or in public or private by chuck schumer, hakeem jeffries, all those fellas. >> i asked multiple times again today. i called up folks from the convention community$çthis morning and said are you looking for a new nominee? and they resoundingly said no. joe biden will be our nominee. and i don't believe that the campaign apparatus or people closest to the president are saying i don't think he's up for this. i think they believe that he is in fact up for this. joe biden himself said today he believes he is up for this. the only way in which -- look, chris, they could be wrong. they could be wrong. but the voters will have the final say. and i remember when i worked with the campaign and right after iowa everyone was like joe biden is done for. the donors are fleeing. he is too old for this. and then he won. so you have to let these things play out. but the campaign has to make the decisions. back in 2019, 2020, that campaign made key decisions. are they going to make decisions this go-round, and what will those be? we have to watch. q:"ti rñsimon you. she will be back bright and early tomorrow, sunday at 8:00 a.m. she has that interview with anita dunn, she will be there with michael steele and lisa menendez coasting the weekend on msnbc. coming up, joe biden is the only one who had a bad night. we will break down donald trump's truly terrible debate performance next. mance next. ♪♪ with fastsigns, create striking custom visuals that inspire pride district-wide. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. 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