people are trying to find an end in sight. and as he bubbles to the top of the 2012 pool, what makes newt tick? with gingrich campaign adviser bob walker and former gingrich staffer, political analyst rich galen. i'm candy crowley, and this is "state of the union." for more than two months, debt committee members have struggled with the complications of public policy and the reality of party politics. by way of good news, they're still talking to each other. >> we have 12 good people who have worked hard since this committee has been created to try to find sufficient common ground. >> i think all 12 members of this committee have really committed to doing that. we're working hard. >> still, it's hard to figure how they can in the hours left agree on a deal that has eluded them for months. joining me now for her first sunday interview as democratic co-chair of the super committee, senator patty murray from washington. thanks for being here at a tough time. there are multiple stories out there that it's over. >> look, i took on this task of co-chair with a real sense of the urgency of this country. the challenge that was in front of us and so many people saying to me, please, find a solution, find a way out of this, i'm worried about my country. all americans, all sides, no matter who they are, share some real common ground. they care about our country, they're worried about our future, they want us to find a shared sacrifice way of solving this. but there are some real divides, too. and i came into this really trying to find that common ground and that bridge that could bring us together. and in some ways, we found some of that ground. you know, i have put things on the table and learned a lot about what we can and need to do in ways i never thought before. and i'm sure -- >> are you going to come up with a deal? >> i'm sure my republican counterparts did the same, but there is one sticking divide, and that is the issue of what i call shared sacrifice, where everybody contributes in a very challenging time for our country. >> tax increases. >> that's the bush tax cuts and making sure that any kind of package includes everybody coming to the table and the wealthiest of americans, those who earn over a million dollars every year, have to share, too. and that line in the sand, we haven't seen any republicans willing to cross yet. >> and so that says to me that, yes, the debt committee is not going to be able to come to an agreement to put to an up or down vote. >> well, look, i'm going to be waiting all day. i'll be at the table, as i've been, willing to talk to any republican who says, look, my country is more important, this pile of bills is not going to go away, the challenges that we have is not going to disappear, we need to cross that divide. i'm ready, i'm waiting. today i'll be at the table, all night long. we have a few hours left. >> is any talking going on? >> if anybody's willing to be there -- >> doesn't sound like anything is scheduled or -- just kind of a "call me if you have an idea"? >> i know people talk about whether we're on room. a lot of discussions go on. we've had many, many discussions. a few people, the whole group, all of us, all trying to find that common ground. that's how i approach a problem, what is the best way to bring together to find that.ple but the truth is at this point today, democrats have made some really tough decisions and come to some pretty tough choices that we're willing to put on the line on entitlements, on spending cuts, but only if the republicans are willing to cross the line on the bush tax cuts and be willing to say revenues have to be a part of this solution. >> so how does this end? does it end at midnight? do you put out a press release? do you vote on the separate plans? do you have a final meeting to go "we can't do it"? how are you going to end this? >> if a republican gets up today and says i can't let the country see a failure out of this committee and comes to us and says i'm willing to say that there is revenue on the table, i will work all night long to get that put together, and we can have a committee vote on it. >> they will tell you that they have put revenue on the table. so i don't want to -- >> let's talk about that. i think that's important to talk about. >> well i want to play -- we had your fellow co-chair jeb hensarling, a republican, on last week. i want to play you a little bit of what he said and ask you about it. >> sure. sure. >> we will fail unless we fundamentally do structural reform to what president obama himself has called the main drivers of our debt -- medicare, medicaid, and health care. >> so, the republicans say, as you know, the problem here isn't about making people pay more, it's about tax reform, medicare reform, social security reform, that you all are totally unwilling to do that. >> well that -- everybody knows -- everybody in the country knows there's three main things we need to put on the table -- revenue, entitlements and spending cuts. part of this deal that everybody's forgotten about is we enacted a little over a trillion dollars in spending cuts already as part of this deal. the committee has to look at spending cuts, if we do more, entitlements and revenue. democrats have come to the table to meet dollar for dollar what the republicans are asking for in terms of spending cuts and entitlements. not policy for policy but dollar for dollar. >> not the structural reform they are talking about. the senate committee changed the way these -- >> but we have said we are willing to put on the table changes to the entitlement programs that reduce the deficit in the long run. but what we will not put on the table is the end to the guarantee to those entitlements. i don't want to say to my granddaughter, you're not going to be able to have health care when you retire. i want that guarantee there, and you can do that, but it is long term and we've been willing to do that, and it is a big sacrifice to put that on the table. but we can't do it alone. we can't say this whole problem is going to be solved by taking something away from people in terms of social security and entitlements. we have to have on the table the revenue. and again, that is the sticking point today as we sit here. >> you don't think you're going to get that call from a republican, do you? >> well, you know -- >> i know hope springs eternal and you don't want to drive a stake into this, but -- >> well, let's be clear. this is a challenge that is still going to be on the table at the end of the day, and the question will be not if we are going to solve this but how we are going to solve it. is it going to be fair? is it going to be shared sacrifice or just working men and women going to carry the ball on this? i just can't support that. >> i want to play you -- for you something that you said on the 1st of november about these triggers. in other words, if you all don't come to a deal -- looks very much like you're not going to -- $1.2 trillion in cuts in discretionary spending and at the pentagon will take place in 2013. i want to play something you said. >> the consequences of failure are unacceptable. the triggers that have been put in place would be devastating for our national defense and for middle-class families in the most vulnerable americans that depend on this country for things like education and housing and even nutrition assistance for women and infants. >> among other things, leon panetta, the defense secretary, said you do these cuts in the pentagon, it will cripple the military. so it is impossible for me to believe that 12 people looking at what you just said will happen are going to allow this -- allow the debt committee to fail. >> and i have told you, i'm at the table, i am ready to work with anybody who can say that last divide is that they're willing to cross that. democrats have said shared sacrifice. the country understands shared sacrifice. the people i talk to say, you know, i know i'm going to have to bear some of this burden. i know that this is -- that our country's in trouble. but, look, any family understands this. if a family's in trouble and somebody is seriously injured or sick and the family has to come around the table and say how are we going to deal with this, everybody says what can i do, they don't say well we're going to let our older brother off who's done really well. he's not going to contribute. the rest of us who are working really hard and have had a tougher time, we're going to contribute? our country gets that philosophy. that big brother has to be at the table, too. that's what's missing today. that's what america wants. >> but we are still at the place where all of these cuts may happen if the committee fails where people talk about shaking the world markets if you fail, they're talking about perhaps again undercutting u.s. creditworthiness because people have no faith in congress. why not take what the republicans have offered and say, look, there's some spending cuts we can agree to, $640 billion or something that was put on the table by republicans recently? >> you are talking about a couple days ago. >> right. >> that was cuts that fell right on the working-class families. >> the cuts themselves were not mutually agreed to? >> no, they were not mutually agreed to. >> you don't like the cuts. >> no. >> so where does the country go from here? what you're going to see at the end of the year, extension of unemployment benefits may expire, so people who have been unemployed for 99 weeks or more will lose their benefits. that payroll tax cut, people not paying about 2% of social security security taxes, some relief they got, that's going to go off the table. what happens now? >> well, look. i believe strongly that we still have the capability to come together to solve this problem. if the super committee can't do it, then i hope that congress will. in fact, i'm committed to solving this. you can't just ignore this crisis. it's been building for years. and congress hasn't stepped up to the plate and faced it, and the country's demanding that, and we have to keep working on it, and i'm going to keep working on it. but i'll tell you one of the problems has been a pledge that too many republicans took to a republican wealthy lobbyist by the name of grover norquist, whose name has come up in meetings time and time again, and as long as we have some republican lawmakers who feel more enthralled with a pledge they took to a republican lobbyist than they do to a pledge to the country to solve the problems, this is going to be hard to do. >> i need kind of a one-word answer because i've been told i'm running over here. that is, when do you decide we're done? midnight? >> we have until the day before thanksgiving. we have to file a bill by tomorrow. and so again, i'm at the table. i want to solve this. i care about my country. i know americans want us to solve this. we have an opportunity. i remain hopeful that someone on the other side will say, this is too important to fail. >> pretty optimistic, senator patty murray, thanks for joining us today. >> you bet. coming up, republican senator rand paul's solution for reducing the debt. with liste. its multi-action formula works to restore enamel, help prevent cavities, and kill bad breath germs for a whole mouth clean. whooo... [ male announcer ] listerine® total care. the most complete mouthwash. to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar... ♪ ...saving on medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details. long-lasting, too. yeah, i could really use this silverado. i'm a big hunter. oh, what do you hunt? deer. fish. fantastic. ♪ this holiday, chevy's giving more. now qualified buyers can get 0% apr for 72 months on a 2011 chevy silverado. or 0% apr financing for 60 months plus no monthly payments until spring. ♪ can make it from australia to a u.s. lab to a patient in time for surgery may seem like a trumped-up hollywood premise. ♪ but if you take away the dramatic score... take away the dizzying 360-degree camera move... [ tires screech ] ...and take away the over-the-top stunt, you're still left with a pretty remarkable tale. but, okay, maybe keep the indulgent supermodel cameo... thank you. [ male announcer ] innovative medical solutions. fedex. solutions that matter. joining me now, kentucky republican senator rand paul who launched the senate's tea party caucus earlier this fall. senator paul, thanks for being here. let's talk right now. i don't think any people see any chance that a republican -- i think you heard senator murray, a democrat say -- is going to come forward and say we're going to put as much in tax revenue on the table as spending cuts. therefore, this whole thing implodes. is that your impression? >> yeah, but i think you need to listen between the lines here. we are offering to close loopholes. we're offering to close loopholes on those who are the wealthiest taxpayers. this is what the president has been saying he wants. we are willing to close those loopholes, but we want it to be part of tax reform, which lowers tax rates. only thing that's ever helped unemployment in this country was when kennedy lowered tax rates and when reagan lowered tax rates, and unemployment was cut in half each time. >> the problem is that between now and tomorrow when the super committee has to come up with something, you can't have tax reform. i mean people have been trying to reform the tax structure for i don't know how long. and to then say -- which it seems to the world the congress is saying -- you know what? yeah, it is going to shake the world markets, sure, it might undermine the u.s. economy, yeah, there are going to be painful cuts across the board, but we just can't agree on how to go forward in an adult way. is that the picture of congress that people are going to get? >> well, you know, sequestration is automatic cuts. >> sequestration -- >> kind of like when your kids are misbehavinging -- yeah, sequestration are like automatic cuts. the thing is that you -- i would have automatic cuts sort of like telling your children that, you know, if you don't clean up your mess, or else, really maybe we need the "or else" because congress isn't behaving the way they should be behaving. maybe sequestration is our only way we will get any kind of cuts. >> okay. so you are willing to have cuts in the pentagon budget that the defense secretary has said will be devastating. >> i think we need to be honest about it. the interesting thing is there will be no cuts in military spending. this may surprise some people, but there will be no cuts in military spending because we're only cutting proposed increases. if we do nothing, military spending goes up 23% over ten years. if we sequester the money, it will still go up 16%. so spending is still rising under any of these plans. in fact, if you look at both alternatives, spending is still going up. we're only cutting proposed increases in spending. >> so you don't believe the defense secretary who says this is really going to be harmful to the military and the pentagon? >> that's an interpretation. but what i can tell you are the facts is that defense spending will go up $100 billion over ten years even if we sequester $600 billion. because the curve of spending in our country is going up at about 7.5% a year. all spending goes up. that's why if you were to freeze spending for ten years, no cuts, but just simply freeze spending for ten years, they would call that a $9 trillion cut because they are planning on spending going up $9 trillion. >> listen, you have put out -- had a go-big alternative that you put out that you said would save about $6 trillion over that same ten-year period. it included things like reductions in the department of education in k through 12, spending, slowing down foreign aid, reducing defense spending, capping welfare programs at 2007 levels. i know that you know, when you put this together, that the democrats will not go for this. and i know that the democrats put together programs that they know republicans won't go for. why shouldn't the public look at this and say this is one giant re-election bid by both sides? >> well, what i would say is there's one program in that $6 trillion. if you take medicaid, block grant it, and send it back to the states, that gives you $1.7 trillion in cuts. it exceeds the targets that the committee was designated to do. so you could cut just one program and do a pretty good job. now, on their side, they say we're unreasonable. they want to raise taxes a trillion dollars in the middle of a recession. most of us think we're taxed enough already. spending has gone up 25%. taxes and rates have been stable since 2003. revenue has fallen because we're in a recession. we need to grow the economy and get out of a recession. it is the only way we're going to balance our budget. >> in fact, polling shows that most americans do think that what we call the bush era tax cuts for the wealthy should be allowed to expire, and that's one of the things you all won't give up, saying, no, we want a total tax reform. my point here is that i know that you have said the president clearly didn't want to deal because it's a better campaign issue for him if there's no deal. why shouldn't people look at republicans for putting stuff on the table they know full well will not pass, and why isn't that the republican agenda? >> well, we have to start with the facts on who does -- are the rich paying their fair share. because we hear that over and over again, the rich are not paying their fair share. the top 1%, the millionaires in our country, pay on average 29% of their income. that's what they pay on average. if the average carpenter who makes $50,000 to $75,000 a year pays between 15% and 18%. the top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of the income tax. the rich and the middle class are paying their fair share. >> if they pay. >> yeah, the vast majority are though. there are anomalies. there are aberrations. >> sure. go ahead. >> the people -- the people who are not paying, we're all for making them pay. if you are a millionaire or you are a corporation that's not paying, we're all for eliminating those loopholes and deductions. but on average the vast majority of millionaires and billionaires are paying all of the taxes. that's who pays the income tax. >> couple things i want to ask you about quickly. if by the end of the year congress doesn't act, long-term unemployment benefits will expire. that is benefits for people who have been unemployed 99 weeks or longer. are you willing to vote for an extension of long-term unemployment benefits? >> if you want to extend unemployment benefits, they have to be paid for. we have an unemployment program. we have a tax for it. it's paid for for 26 weeks. so the question is, do we want to borrow money from china to pay people not to work? i think we need to figure out how to get people back to work so i don't want to concentrate on extending how long people can be paid not to work. i want to get millions of people back to work, and the only thing historically that's ever worked in our country is to lower tax rates on the upper-income folks. we don't want to raise their taxes. you need to lower their taxes if you want to put people back to work. >> i'm going to take that as a no, that you're opposed to it because of finding ways to pay for it. let me ask you about the payroll tax. that is social security taxes, which were cut by about 2% for most people, and that will also expire so there is social security, their payroll tax will go up. are you willing to extend that? >> the hard part here is that social security is $6 trillio