>> we have over 50 tlts in unfunded liabilities, medicare, medicaid, all unsustainable. i think we need to do something in connection with the decision to raise the debt ceiling. it deals with the debt. both medium and short-term, medium term and long-term. that what it would take to get my vote. >> a cnn contributor, secretary geithner said not raising the debt ceiling would be catastrophic for the economy. now, he concedes no one knows for certain what could happen in the event that it's not raised. are republicans willing to risk sending this fragile recovery that we're in into chaos to find out if they're right? >> no. but neither are democrats. let me tell you why i'm certain. a, the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1962. second the consequences for not raising the debt creeling are dire and everyone knows it i have my tim russert prop. if we don't raise the debt ceiling the government cannot issue new debt. we take in 60 cents for every dollar we spend. we spend 40% more than we take in. you can choose to not pay the interest on your current debt, which amounts to effectively a defau default. how would the markets react to that. >> that's bad. >> we think so. >> okay. >> currently the u.s. used as a safehaven. would markets continue to think of us that way? we don't know. the second choice is more scary to me, that is we have to cut spend big 40% and that comes from social security, medicare. >> that's a big cut. >> it's a huge number. >> where does your arrow go if you do that. >> to depression. i want to cut government spending but i don't want to do it overnight. if you have to cut spending by 40% you're looking at a 10% contraction in the economy, looking at depression. that's a pretty clear choice. raise the debt ceiling. >> that's not what we're hearing from a whole lot of other conservatives. you lay the argument out very well. gloria is a cnn senior political analyst. 60% of americans say they oppose raising the debt ceiling. just 37% would be in favor of raising it. that would seem to bolster the republican argument that they want severe cuts in extreme for their vote to raise that credit limit. let's say the debt ceiling is not raised and the u.s. does, as will postulates possibly default on some of its payments. are the consequences as dire as secretary geithner warns? will the republicans blame republicans or democrats who wouldn't give them the cuts? what's going to happen? >> the public will blame everyone. i think first of all, the congress and that means democrats, republicans, and also the president of the united states, needs to go out as the secretary of the treasury has and explain what the consequences are. it's clear from looking at that poll, that people may be saying, debt ceiling, we don't want to pay more money not sure -- >> you're right about that. >> part of the burden of leadership is explain iing is explaining these things. when you look back at votes on the debt ceiling they're always political votes. go back to 2006 none other than president obama and his fellow democrats. >> voted not to do it. >> 2004, unanimously all house democrats voted against it, george bush was in power. if it doesn't get done and problems in the economy the american public will turn very quickly and blame all of the members of congress and the president. >> christa freeland the editor of thompson reuters digital. what gloria says is right, no one has been able to explain beyond tim geithner saying it's going to be catastrophic what happens if we don't make those payments. go back to september 14th, 2008, smart people sat around the table and said it's not going to be that bad if we let lehman brothers collapse. we didn't know what the consequences are either. you are a global financial journalist. what happened? >> i think actually, this isn't something we need to debate that much. it is absolutely clear that if the u.s. defaults on its debt, that is a catastrophic event for america and for the global economy. that is a moment when people stop having faith in the u.s. government and they should stop having faith in the u.s. government. the u.s. government could not be paying its creditors and so new creditors are not going to be knocking on america's door. if they come in they will require much, much higher rates of interest. >> by the way, for viewers out there, that's how it affects you. if the u.s. pays more to borrow money, you pay more for your mortgages, your companies and employers pay more to borrow money. what that tends to do is give them less available cash to hire people. >> you would have to pay hire taxes. right now, the trick is, america actually is in a fabulous position in the global economy because even though america has very high debt, it is being charged very, very low rates of interest by the rest of the world. >> because our credit is thought to be good. >> but, you know, republicans want to get something out of this. in a way i don't blame them. you want our votes to raise the debt ceiling mr. president, fine, how about dollar for dollar we talk about spending cuts. mitch mcconnell was talking about some grand bargain on entitlements. i don't think they're going to get that but i think you are going to get substantial deficit reduction or promises. >> will cane, this is not the last word or the last debate on how to cut spending. if you are a conservative, if you are a fiscal conservative, you are a republican and you believe strongly that there need to be cuts like many americans do, we have the 2012 budget to discuss. we've got until october to sort that out. why are some republicans picking this as the fight and not that which is really the place to have this discussion? >> i said this before, democrats have shown no willingness to cut at any point in time. like you have to put them and the country for that matter in these positions of emergency to make decisions. i want to agree with something krista said, this is barely worth a debate, it is going to be raised. here's the metaphor in "braveheart" before william wallace comes along, the two armies get together like they're going to shed blood, and the older one says what's going to happen, the noeblts will negotiate and we'll go home. that's what's go to happen here. >> i don't want to pay nightmare scenarios, ali made a reference to lehman brothers. that's correct. if america defaults you would see higher interest rates charged to the u.s. government. what we don't know but i think we can really predict with high probability is, you could plunge the world into a new financial crisis. >> it may not happen but there's some chance it could happen. >> i have to tell you, there are -- there are, you know, 80 freshmen republicans, 60 of whom who have never held elective office before, and you know, a lot of those folks are saying, you know what, i'm not so sure it's going to be so terrible. there are a lot of chicken littles running around and these are the people that -- >> john boehner -- >> that's negotiating talk. >> john boehner has to talk to. for some of these people it's not negotiating talk. but it is the burden of leadership right now. because john boehner runs the house. >> john boehner and eric cantor are not freshmen. hopefully they will be able to convince their team. great to talk to you as always. kris ya, will, stick around. the other most important economic issue facing americans today, is it being ignored as a result of this focus on the deficit. but it's time for your medicine, okay? 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do you think that would help? yeah. priority mail flat rate shipping starts at just $4.95, only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship. your finances can't manage themselves. but that doesn't mean they won't try. bring all your finances together with the help of the one person who can. a certified financial planner professional. cfp. let's make a plan. i'm out of work, i need a job. it doesn't get a lot more complicated than that when you ask americans why they believe that unemployment is the most important economic issue today. unemployment tops the list of the most important issues. it's a 38%. 10% more by the way than the number of people who say the federal deficit is the most important economic issue. will cane is with us, i want to bring in normer columnist bob herbert. let's look at this. you and i know the unemployment rate, bit of a red herring, doesn't tell the full picture, but it's at 9%. is washington doing everything it can to create the right environment for companies to create jobs? i think we all agree that other than in the recession, government doesn't have a particular role in creating jobs but it does set the tone. >> it does set the tone. to answer your question i don't think the government is doing enough. the big problem right now, especially with all the talk about deficits, is that you lose sight of the need for investments if you're going to create large numbers of jobs. it costs money but it's not wasted money, not money just poured into a ditch. it's money that ultimately would bring a return. right now there doesn't seem to be much political sentiment in favor of the kinds of investments we need. >> that word investments sometimes triggers people to think spending and they want to know what the return on that investment was and point to the stimulus and did it create as many jobs as it was supposed to. the speaker of the house wants trillions of dollars in spending cuts because he wants as much in cuts as they're prepared to increase the debt limit and we're talking $2 trillion there. but he also claims to want to help those who continue to struggle in this economy. listen to his words. >> i think america has a strong safety net for those who live near the bottom of our economy. i think that we should. i'm a big believer in a country like ours, those who have the opportunity to succeed and do succeed, have a responsibility to help those who can't compete. >> a lot of respect for a guy like john boehner, small business man, self-made. where is that safety net? the republicans voted against extending unemployment benefits unless they got a hold on tax increases. we have these groups called the 99ers out of work more than two years and are now unemployable almost and not matched to jobs available. where from a conservative perspective is the safety net and where should it be? >> i don't know if the conserve differents or the republicans better said have the answer to that. i don't think the democrats do either. bob's characterization i don't know that we're doing enough. here's how i would change that. i don't know that we're doing the right thing. the things we invest in, are welfare largely for the middle class. medicare, social security, these are programs designed to make people comfortable, not innovate. if we were to invest which i wouldn't oppose, create this safety net for the poor, i think we need to start looking beyond things like affordable housing or unemployment benefits and looking at investing in things like education. fa reed had a great stat, for every $4 we spend on the elderly we spend $1 on kids. >> let's talk about this, i'm going to address this, education which i agree with, retraining, because we have a very large population that are just not trained for the jobs we need them to be trained for, and innovation which would be tax credits really. >> this is not an issue on which we disagree. when i talk about investments i was specifically talking about investments that ultimately would create large numbers of jobs. that would include investments in education, i think we should have a tremendous investment in infrastructure and certainly in -- on innovation. so that's moving in the direction that i'm in favor of. >> we can't do everything, so we have to cut back on the comfortable welfare programs for the middle class. >> here's the problem as i see it with the republican proposals that are -- that we hear on the hill right now. i don't think it's possible, i don't think it's workable, one, tax cuts -- tax hikes are off the table. that's one thing. and they want cuts that are going to bring down the deficits while at the same time, saying that we have to maintain safety nets. that requires spending. i just don't think that adds up. >> i'll put this to both of you. take a 50-year-old man who was an autoworker in the rust belt. in a place, some factory worker where the factory, town has almost shut down because the factory shut down. aren't jobs in the area, they can't sell their house, maybe the kids are not going to college. we keep telling people there are open jobs. that person has to become an account the or software worker or a medical worker or truck driver working the energy industry, all these industries have jobs, how does that person, my viewer, get from unemployment and being trained for the wrong thing into employment? will? >> there is no way ali i possibly have the answer to that nor does bob even if he tries to pretend. >> come on. >> i'll give you a question you might have an tone ann to. >> what can government -- answer to. what can government do to encourage the ability to get that person retrained? >> we have to use ab instrustras like retrain. educate older people. i don't know that the government can or should be the person to figure out how that man which you described very well transitions a whole economy moving from an economy that has a spectrum of jobs from low wage, low skill to high. we're phasing out. >> let me answer your question because i've been going around the country interviewing these 50 somethings. there's nothing that can be done for them right now given the current situation. they're falling out of the labor force. they're not being counted as unemployed. taking early retirement when they can. going on disability. those roles are increasing. and i don't think you can retrain them for these other jobs that you're talking about. >> put them on welfare 30 years? >> what i think we should do, we should have a massive infrastructure rebuilding effort in this country. >> a work project administration? >> those people who have been working in manufacturing for years, who have been working in construction, construction got killed in the recession, they have skills that you could put to work in rebuilding a modern infrastructure for the 21st century and the industries that we're going to be approaching going forward. >> i'm not opposed to that if the right motive is in mind. if we need infrastructure projects. >> we do know we need better jobs. >> don't create jobs to create jobs. >> do you agree being a guy who travels around the country we need infrastructure. >> we could pour more concrete on the highways. >> better electrical grid. >> the electrical grid, the inland waterways, it's the ports on both sides and on the southern coast of the united states. i mean infrastructure is in sorry shape in this country. >> take a nonpartisan position to invest in education and infrastructure and by the way i'm willing to look at increasing in tax revenues i have to hear that you're willing to cut back on the comfortable welfare programs for the middle class, such as medicare. by the way, that's where the deficit is coming from. >> let me -- i think in the real world you are not going to cut back sharply on medicare. >> as a political reality. >> that's sad. >> we'll have to continue this and figure out a way. tells you how complicated it is. these are smart guys that know about this stuff. will, thanks very much. bob always good to see you. one big city is becoming a hot bed for technology jobs. you might be surprised by this one. i'm going to show it to you after this break. i love it too ♪ ♪ you love money ♪ well, you know i love it too ♪ ♪ i work so hard at my job ♪ and then i bring it home to you ♪ ♪ i love money in my pocket (announcer) everything you need to stay balanced on long trips. residence inn. good gravy, bill. our insurance company doesn't have anything like it. magnificent, isn't it? with progressive, it's easy to cover all of your favorite rides. progressive has truck insurance? number one in truck and motorcycle. is that a golf cart? yep. we also cover rvs, boats, atvs. anything else i can help you with? can i take a ride? you need a ticket -- i'm first! and that's by the water slide. okay. no running. oh, dear. save on all your rides. now, that's progressive. call or click today. personal pricing now on brakes. tell us what you want to pay. we do our best to make that work. deal! my money. my choice. my meineke. where are the jobts? a question we ask on this show. this answer might surprise you. detroit, the motor city seeing a technology transtoremation of sorts. like google and ford hiring tech workers in droves. could it be the reinvention that detroit has been waiting for. here's cnn money's poppy harlow. >> what we do here is simulate the vehicle. people don't realize there's five times the computing power in a car than there is in even the most sophisticated smartphone. >> reporter: could the motor city be turning into tech town usa. >> we've hired people from silicon valley, microsoft and a number of other countries. >> reporter: some say it might be. detroit has seen an 82% increase in tech jobs in the past year at companies like ford. is there a tech job boom here, would you say? >>. >> there is. i've never seen this much hiring in technology since i've been here. my particular group we're going to triple over the three-year period. >> reporter: josh kitchens locked in a job with this ford tech team. >> i was offered other positions but chose to stay here. salary was a big part. >> reporter: tech workers make an average of $71,000 a year. less than silicon valley but a great living here. >> it's very competitive and they want us to stay and rebuild detroit. >> reporter: these michigan state engineering students had jobs lined up before graduation. i cheese engineering mostly for job security. >> is there a sense of pride in wanting to tell the world, hey, detroit is still here? >> definitely. come in, start at the company and people that need jobs badly. >> reporter: google says this will be its biggest hiring year yet in detroit. >> come out of college and put on a career path is amazing. >> why has there been such a big boom in tech jobs? some people say in cities like right here in detroit, so many jobs have been lost, the only real place to go was up. >> employers, particularly in auto town usa, are realizing they need to do more efficient with their operations. technology plays a big part. >> can we call this a tech boom industry? >> i think i would call it a boom let. >> a boomlet. >> a boomlet. markets like