lockdown — helpful particularly on the autumn lockdown and managing, he did much more _ lockdown and managing, he did much more of— lockdown and managing, he did much more of the _ lockdown and managing, he did much more of the operational implications of the _ more of the operational implications of the decisions that have been taken _ of the decisions that have been taken and — of the decisions that have been taken and i think dominic cummings did more_ taken and i think dominic cummings did more of— taken and i think dominic cummings did more of the ideas, i would say. i did more of the ideas, i would say. i don't _ did more of the ideas, i would say. i don't how— did more of the ideas, i would say. i don't how helpful that is.- i don't how helpful that is. special advisers presumably _ i don't how helpful that is. special advisers presumably are _ i don't how helpful that is. special advisers presumably are meant i i don't how helpful that is. special advisers presumably are meant to j advisers presumably are meant to advise, they aren't decision—makers. they are absolutely meant to advise. but they _ they are absolutely meant to advise. but they can instigate areas of inquiry? but they can instigate areas of in . ui ? , but they can instigate areas of inuui ? , .., ., but they can instigate areas of inuui ? , ., , ':: inquiry? they can and so number10 has not inquiry? they can and so number10 has got more _ inquiry? they can and so number10 has got more political _ inquiry? they can and so number10 has got more political advisers - inquiry? they can and so number10 has got more political advisers and l has got more political advisers and civil servants together, it's two parallel — civil servants together, it's two parallel groups which is unusual compared — parallel groups which is unusual compared to departments. in theory special— compared to departments. in theory special advisers aren't able to direct— special advisers aren't able to direct the _ special advisers aren't able to direct the civil service. i think at this time — direct the civil service. i think at this time that was very, very theoretical. what keeps us all anchored _ theoretical. what keeps us all anchored constitutionally if you like is — anchored constitutionally if you like is that the special adviser is normally— like is that the special adviser is normally working for the prime minister— normally working for the prime minister or on behalf of the prime ministen — minister or on behalf of the prime ministen if— minister or on behalf of the prime minister. if i think back to previous— minister. if i think back to previous times i would be very clear when _ previous times i would be very clear when i _ previous times i would be very clear when i was — previous times i would be very clear when i was asked to do something by a senior— when i was asked to do something by a senior adviser at number 10, they were _ a senior adviser at number 10, they were asking — a senior adviser at number 10, they were asking on behalf of the prime minister~ _ were asking on behalf of the prime minister. and that was not clear, that's— minister. and that was not clear, that's one — minister. and that was not clear, that's one of the other things that's— that's one of the other things that's problematic, it wasn't asking on behalf— that's problematic, it wasn't asking on behalf of the prime minister, it was asking — on behalf of the prime minister, it was asking separate to. which the wiring _ was asking separate to. which the wiring of— was asking separate to. which the wiring of those systems doesn't work if that's— wiring of those systems doesn't work if that's what happens.— if that's what happens. that's what i was wondering. _ if that's what happens. that's what i was wondering. thank _ if that's what happens. that's what i was wondering. thank you - if that's what happens. that's what i was wondering. thank you very i if that's what happens. that's what - i was wondering. thank you very much indeed, extremely grateful to you and sorry we've kept you for so long. and sorry we've kept you for so lonu. . ~ and sorry we've kept you for so lonu. ., ~' ,, we will leave straight to the next witness. ., �* ., . �* �* , witness. you're watching bbc news. this is continuing _ witness. you're watching bbc news. this is continuing live _ witness. you're watching bbc news. this is continuing live coverage - witness. you're watching bbc news. this is continuing live coverage of. this is continuing live coverage of the uk covid inquiry and we are expecting to hearfrom the uk covid inquiry and we are expecting to hear from the next witness doctor david halpin in a short while. —— dr david halpern. i short while. —— dr david halpern. i do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare — do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and _ do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and confirm _ do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and confirm that - do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and confirm that the - declare and confirm that the evidence _ declare and confirm that the evidence i— declare and confirm that the evidence i shall— declare and confirm that the evidence i shall give - declare and confirm that the evidence i shall give shall. declare and confirm that the | evidence i shall give shall be declare and confirm that the - evidence i shall give shall be the truth, _ evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the — evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the whole _ evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth _ evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and - evidence i shall give shall be the i truth, the whole truth and nothing but the _ truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth _ truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. fire _ truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.— but the truth. are nothing but the truth. but the truth. are nothing but the truth- thank _ but the truth. are nothing but the truth. thank you. _ but the truth. are nothing but the truth. thank you. could _ but the truth. are nothing but the truth. thank you. could you - but the truth. are nothing but the truth. thank you. could you give l but the truth. are nothing but the i truth. thank you. could you give us our full truth. thank you. could you give us your full name. _ truth. thank you. could you give us your full name, please. _ truth. thank you. could you give us your full name, please. i'm - your full name, please. i'm professor— your full name, please. i'm professor david _ yourfull name, please. i'm professor david halpin of the behavioural insights team. thank you so much for— behavioural insights team. thank you so much for attending _ behavioural insights team. thank you so much for attending today. - behavioural insights team. thank you so much for attending today. a - behavioural insights team. thank you so much for attending today. a few i so much for attending today. a few things, if we can both keep our voices up, speak slowly so that the evidence can be captured and if we can avoid if we can over speaking as it doesn't assist with the transcript. if helpfully provided a witness statement dated 19th of may of this year and it runs to 65 pages and you've signed that at page 63 and you've signed that at page 63 and you've signed that at page 63 and you've had a chance to refresh your memory in relation to that. can your memory in relation to that. can you confirm that is true to the best of your knowledge and belief? yes. you confirm that is true to the best of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can. you of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can- you are — of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can. you are here _ of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can. you are here on _ of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can. you are here on behalf- of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can. you are here on behalf of- of your knowledge and belief? yes, i can. you are here on behalf of the i can. you are here on behalf of the behavioural— can. you are here on behalf of the behavioural insights _ can. you are here on behalf of the behavioural insights team. - can. you are here on behalf of the behavioural insights team. you i behavioural insights team. you another president, when you drafted the statement you with a chief executive officer and you're here to provide an overview of the role you played on behalf of that organisation during the covid pandemic. we can see it is 105 exhibits and even those are quite substantial in themselves. it traverses many issues. we won't cover them all today. the first point is that your statement and those exhibits go into evidence, so we have that to assist the inquiry but i want to focus upon four areas. one main area and three secondary 0ne main area and three secondary areas. the first area is touching on your background and what the behavioural insights team is. secondly, your evidence focusing upon your involvement particularly in february and march 2020, assisting and advising those at the heart of government. thirdly, understanding and compliance of social distancing from a behavioural perspective bearing in mind your expertise in that field. lastly, we will conclude and touch upon what you describe as covid missteps when we look at lessons learned. is that 0k? , we look at lessons learned. is that 0k?- forgive _ we look at lessons learned. is that 0k?- forgive me _ we look at lessons learned. is that 0k? yes. forgive me for perhaps dominating _ 0k? yes. forgive me for perhaps dominating at — 0k? yes. forgive me for perhaps dominating at the _ 0k? yes. forgive me for perhaps dominating at the beginning but i can deal with this quite shortly, we see at page two, paragraph four. as we know from your title as professor you are an academic with a lifetime tenure at university of cambridge and you've held posts at oxford and harvard. we can touch upon when you first worked in government from 2001 to 2007, on loan from cambridge you assisted the former prime minister tony blair as chief analyst in the prime minister's strategy unit. you were there for roughly six years and from there you became the founding director and research director of the respected independent think tank, the institute for government. that's correct. we tank, the institute for government. that's correct-— that's correct. we are familiar with the organisation _ that's correct. we are familiar with the organisation and _ that's correct. we are familiar with the organisation and we've - that's correct. we are familiar with the organisation and we've had - that's correct. we are familiar with the organisation and we've had a l the organisation and we've had a number of reports referred to and evidence from alex thomas already during the inquiry. thereafter once he finished at the isg, he became a director of behavioural insights team in 2010 — 11t. did you set it up? team in 2010 - 14. did you set it u i ? , ,., . ~' team in 2010 - 14. did you set it u-? , . ~ ., team in 2010 - 14. did you set it up? yes, i went back to downing street in 2010 _ up? yes, i went back to downing street in 2010 to _ up? yes, i went back to downing street in 2010 to do _ up? yes, i went back to downing street in 2010 to do a _ up? yes, i went back to downing street in 2010 to do a range - up? yes, i went back to downing street in 2010 to do a range of l street in 2010 to do a range of things— street in 2010 to do a range of things that david cameron was interested in. that included behavioural science and things like his interest in well—being or other aspects _ his interest in well—being or other aspects of— his interest in well—being or other aspects of public service reform. save _ aspects of public service reform. save had — aspects of public service reform. save had experience with tony blair, david cameron and you also mentioned your experience in what works great. perhaps you could briefly explain that. ~ ., ., ., ., , that. what works, one of the things ma come that. what works, one of the things may come through _ that. what works, one of the things may come through today, _ that. what works, one of the things may come through today, what - that. what works, one of the things| may come through today, what does work in _ may come through today, what does work in government, in policy and practice — work in government, in policy and practice a— work in government, in policy and practice. a more empirical based approach — practice. a more empirical based approach to government. i took up this role _ approach to government. i took up this role a — approach to government. i took up this role a day a week at the request— this role a day a week at the request of the cabinet secretary jeremy— request of the cabinet secretary jeremy heywood as the uk's what works— jeremy heywood as the uk's what works national adviser, which i did for ten _ works national adviser, which i did for ten years. any 50, works national adviser, which i did for ten years. an— works national adviser, which i did for ten years. any so, for perhaps a number of — for ten years. any so, for perhaps a number of decades _ for ten years. any so, for perhaps a number of decades you've - for ten years. any so, for perhaps a number of decades you've had - for ten years. any so, for perhaps a i number of decades you've had access to and advised number 10 in relation to and advised number 10 in relation to these matters? to and advised number10 in relation to these matters?— to and advised number 10 in relation to these matters? yes. let's turn to the behavioural— to these matters? yes. let's turn to the behavioural insights team, also known as the nudge unit. formed in 2010 as part of the cabinet office and what was its purpose? in 2010 as part of the cabinet office and what was its purpose?- and what was its purpose? in the words of the _ and what was its purpose? in the words of the coalition _ and what was its purpose? in the | words of the coalition agreement, and what was its purpose? in the i words of the coalition agreement, it was to— words of the coalition agreement, it was to support people to make better choices— was to support people to make better choices for— was to support people to make better choices for themselves, in more everyday— choices for themselves, in more everyday speak, most government policy _ everyday speak, most government policy issues concerning human ttehaviour— policy issues concerning human behaviour be it public health, paving — behaviour be it public health, paying taxes, getting people back to work _ paying taxes, getting people back to work. when you look at it, most public _ work. when you look at it, most public policy issues concern human behaviour— public policy issues concern human behaviour and the strange thing is there _ behaviour and the strange thing is there wasn't much expertise in government about that. so, it was set up _ government about that. so, it was set up as— government about that. so, it was set up as an — government about that. so, it was set up as an experimental team of seven— set up as an experimental team of seven people to try and introduce that kind — seven people to try and introduce that kind of expertise into government. we set it up with a two year sunset— government. we set it up with a two year sunset clause on the basis if it didn't _ year sunset clause on the basis if it didn't work, and it probably wouldn't. _ it didn't work, and it probably wouldn't, then it would automatically be shut down. and wouldn't, then it would automatically be shutdown. and that sunset clause — automatically be shutdown. and that sunset clause wasn't _ automatically be shutdown. and that sunset clause wasn't exercised i sunset clause wasn't exercised because it continued within cabinet office until 2014 and then was office until 2014 and then was positioned outside the cabinet office and in due course it became independent, an independent entity. that's correct. essentially because it will— that's correct. essentially because it will seeming effective, we were receiving — it will seeming effective, we were receiving requests from many other parts _ receiving requests from many other parts of— receiving requests from many other parts of government to help. it was quite _ parts of government to help. it was quite complicated to receive money from another government so it was felt it— from another government so it was felt it was— from another government so it was felt it was better to set it up in an independent form.- felt it was better to set it up in an independent form. during covid ou were an independent form. during covid you were at _ an independent form. during covid you were at that _ an independent form. during covid| you were at that semi-independent you were at that semi—independent stage? you were at that semi-independent state? . �* . you were at that semi-independent state? ., �*, . . stage? that's correct. we were co-owned — stage? that's correct. we were co-owned formally _ stage? that's correct. we were co-owned formally by - stage? that's correct. we were co-owned formally by the i stage? that's correct. we were i co-owned formally by the cabinet co—owned formally by the cabinet office _ co—owned formally by the cabinet office and — co—owned formally by the cabinet office and i did a day a week directly— office and i did a day a week directly as a national adviser. in directly as a national adviser. relation to directly as a national adviser. in relation to the work the directly as a national adviser. in relation to the work the behavioural insights team did, it was advisory with no decision—making power and he said it received input from multiple government departments and he would supply notes, run experiments to help predict behavioural responses to policy options and to take part in policy or analytical discussions. moving on to our second topic and again, the main part of your evidence i want to draw out today is how you became directly involved in the response and we see it at paragraph 18 of your statement that you became formally involved on the 14th of february when you are called upon by the department of health and social care and is this a fair summary that over the next month, that you are drawn into more and more meetings closer to the heart of government? i more meetings closer to the heart of government?— government? i think so. the request came directly — government? i think so. the request came directly from _ government? i think so. the request came directly from the _ government? i think so. the request came directly from the hsc - government? i think so. the request came directly from the hsc that i came directly from the hsc that inevitably we needed to understand what with _ inevitably we needed to understand what with the transmission mechanisms, what with the other policy— mechanisms, what with the other policy issues and so we were pulled into other— policy issues and so we were pulled into other meetings including a downing — into other meetings including a downing street adopting your phraseology of what works, your picture _ phraseology of what works, your picture from the statements is that you are _ picture from the statements is that you are asking multiple questions of multiple _ you are asking multiple questions of multiple people, trying to find out what the _ multiple people, trying to find out what the problem is and how to find a solution — what the problem is and how to find a solution. yes. when we originally built the _ a solution. yes. when we originally built the behavioural insights team we twilt— built the behavioural insights team we built it — built the behavioural insights team we built it on the back of what had been _ we built it on the back of what had been a _ we built it on the back of what had been a strategy unit. to effect someone's behaviour you need to figure _ someone's behaviour you need to figure out— someone's behaviour you need to figure out what is going on, what's the cause — figure out what is going on, what's the cause of the behaviour but in the cause of the behaviour but in the case — the cause of the behaviour but in the case of— the cause of the behaviour but in the case of covid what are the transmission mechanisms, how is it being _ transmission mechanisms, how is it being spread? so, it leads to quite practical— being spread? so, it leads to quite practical questions around what ekactly— practical questions around what exactly is — practical questions around what exactly is going on in order to answer— exactly is going on in order to answer it— exactly is going on in order to answer it and this ranges from every aspect— answer it and this ranges from every aspect from — answer it and this ranges from every aspect from first line of defence when _ aspect from first line of defence when you've only got public health issues _ when you've only got public health issues like — when you've only got public health issues like washing hands through to when you _ issues like washing hands through to when you move into you want people to take _ when you move into you want people to take a _ when you move into you want people to take a test, will they turn up, will they— to take a test, will they turn up, will they stay at home if you ask them _ will they stay at home if you ask them and — will they stay at home if you ask them and even when you have a vaccine — them and even when you have a vaccine later on, it's not a vaccination until someone physically turns up— vaccination until someone physically turns up and you stick it in their arm _ turns up and you stick it in their arm. �* . . turns up and you stick it in their arm. �* , ., ., ., turns up and you stick it in their arm. 2 ., ., ., ., ., ~ arm. there's a huge amount of work that ou arm. there's a huge amount of work that you did — arm. there's a huge amount of work that you did and _ arm. there's a huge amount of work that you did and you _ arm. there's a huge amount of work that you did and you summarised i arm. there's a huge amount of work. that you did and you summarised that you run 57 online experiments, four field experiments are provided 41 policy nights and were involved in eight longer projects, so a substantial body of work that you are involved with over this period. in relation to the work you are doing, was it on a uk basis, was it england, was there any consideration of the boundaries between england and the devolved administrations? the and the devolved administrations? a bit, you can see the main headline summarised there, it was mainly department of health, sometimes cabinet _ department of health, sometimes cabinet office because we still had a contract — cabinet office because we still had a contract with the cabinet office. i a contract with the cabinet office. i don't _ a contract with the cabinet office. i don't recall any direct commissions from the scottish government. we did some work in wales, _ government. we did some work in wales, we — government. we did some work in wales, we sometimes got commissions from local— wales, we sometimes got commissions from local government, manchester or whateven _ from local government, manchester or whateven i_ from local government, manchester or whatever. i don't recall doing stuff in northern ireland. so mainly sent to government in uk westminster. in to government in uk westminster. relation to to government in uk westminster. in relation to the scope of your initial instructions back in february, 2020, and we can see that at paragraph 18 of your statement, that initial meetings with the permanent secretary and in due course matt hancock, but your scope really there was to assist with the behavioural aspect of how the public would engage with the government response to covid and he would provide advice on how the government would communicate covid related messaging so the public recognise the severity of the virus while avoiding public panic. it sounds easy when you read it out but it's actually quite a difficult balance to provide information but also not to provide information but also not to commence public panic. we had previously worked on some crisis _ we had previously worked on some crisis in _ we had previously worked on some crisis in government, not least fuel crisesr _ crisis in government, not least fuel crises, where some of you may remember, _ crises, where some of you may remember, we had a minister who said, _ remember, we had a minister who said. well, — remember, we had a minister who said, well, just fill up a jerry can — said, well, just fill up a jerry can that— said, well, just fill up a jerry can. that led to mass panic and everyone — can. that led to mass panic and everyone filling up their cars and the whole — everyone filling up their cars and the whole system crashing. so on the one hand. _ the whole system crashing. so on the one hand, you want to inform the public— one hand, you want to inform the public not — one hand, you want to inform the public not least about what they can do to _ public not least about what they can do to protect themselves and their family _ do to protect themselves and their family 0h — do to protect themselves and their family. on the other hand, you want to avoid _ family. on the other hand, you want to avoid panic. generally, you don't have _ to avoid panic. generally, you don't have panic — to avoid panic. generally, you don't have panic. but you can see in this caser _ have panic. but you can see in this case a _ have panic. but you can see in this case, a legitimate concern. one have panic. but you can see in this case, a legitimate concern.- case, a legitimate concern. one of the first public— case, a legitimate concern. one of the first public messaging - case, a legitimate concern. one of. the first public messaging problems you were involved in was the no regrets public messaging, that was the type of messaging you are involved in.— the type of messaging you are involved in. yes. our belief has alwa s involved in. yes. our belief has always been — involved in. yes. our belief has always been if _ involved in. yes. our belief has always been if we _ involved in. yes. our belief has always been if we are _ involved in. yes. our belief has always been if we are asking i involved in. yes. our belief has | always been if we are asking the public— always been if we are asking the public to— always been if we are asking the public to do something, people have many— public to do something, people have many other— public to do something, people have many other things in their lives, let's— many other things in their lives, let's make — many other things in their lives, let's make sure it is authentic in the sense — let's make sure it is authentic in the sense that it is going to work and do _ the sense that it is going to work and do some good for them. and early on when _ and do some good for them. and early on when there is uncertainty, particularly your attention is drawn to so—called no regret messages