and as the former president urges his supporters to watch voters in detroit, atlanta, and philadelphia, civil rights attorney sherrilyn ifill is going to join me as well. plus, comedian jordan klepper has a way of cutting through the noise when it comes to the right-wing echo chamber. i'm very excited to chat with him later on in this show. but we do want to start tonight by talking about a world leader who has a history of projecting onto his opponents what he himself is actually doing. on february 27th, 2014, a group of russian men wearing green uniforms and no identifying military insignia took over the capital of ukraine's peninsula and raised there wasn't plaque above the building. in the days that followed, these little green men as they were called took over ukrainian military bases and important facilities. but despite what was clearly a russian-led campaign with russian military to illegally annexed a part of a neighboring country, the kremlin denied their involvement. when president putin was asked about the role of russian soldiers, he completely flipped the argument around. he flipped it around and claimed, quote, those were local self-defense units. when a reporter pushed him on the fact that it looked a whole lot like those were members of the russian army, he even claimed that, quote, you can go to a store and buy that kind of uniform. it's easy to find. his argument was basically that it wasn't the russians who were attacking ukraine, but instead, it was the west who was attacking the russian people. and this was all simply a matter of self-defense. now, i was at the state department at the time standing at the podium every day. and what we aggressively called out the invasion, by the way, his name on the favorite kremlin targets, we were often on our back heels because the russians said no shame, they took no shame in lying and blurring the lines to create such confusion that it was hard to tell what was fact and what was fiction. we have seen putin continue to use this tactic over the course of the last nearly two years, try to, i should say, claiming ukraine was on a path to using nuclear weapons, really shattering the rooftops. when in reality it was russia, also a country, by the way, with one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world. they were the ones threatening to use them. last february, putin gave a speech claiming it was the west who started the war in ukraine, not that military invasion that we all saw happen with our own eyes. this pattern of accusing others of what you are in fact doing yourself is a classic kremlin tactic. and if this pattern of projecting onto opponents what you are actually doing sounds familiar, it is because one of putin's admirers is using the same tactics right here in the united states. just this weekend in a speech in cedar rapids, iowa, donald trump said this about president biden. >> joe biden is not the defender of american democracy. joe biden is the destroyer of american democracy. and it is him and his people that think they can do whatever they want, break any law, tell any lie, ruin any life, trash any norm, and get away with anything they want. >> now, if you ever heard donald trump speak, and i bet you have, you know he says a lot of things often off the cuff. but that was not one of those times, and that's important, because this was on purpose. this was part of a strategy. you can literally see that in black and white, on signs that trump's campaign passed out at the same event, that say biden attacks democracy. and you can see it in a video posted to truth social later that night captioned, crooked joe biden and the anti democratic party, not exactly subtle. this claim of course comes from the man who try to overturn the last election, the man who accuses democrats of vote rigging, when he is the one who has been criminally charged with defrauding american voters. now, trump's projection is an obvious attempt to muddy the waters, sounds familiar? to blur the lines between facts and fiction, to confuse voters about the actual threat, and to mess with the ability to recognize what israel. if everyone is corrupt, that no one is correct, right? that's the point. this is a tactic you might find on the playground too. the trial saying, i know we've all experienced that. or you might also find it in vladimir putin's russia. and projection has also been a major part of trump's playbook for years. don't forget this exchange from 2016 about who else but putin. >> he'd rather have a topic as president in the united states -- >> no puppet, no puppet. you are the puppet. >> it's pretty clear you wanted him, that the russians -- >> you are the puppet. on top of that, one called a corrupt candidate himself, trump labeled his opponent, crooked hillary. and unfortunately, it kind of worked then, and it might be working now. a recent nbc news poll showed 60% of voters have major or moderate concerns about biden's possible awareness or involvement in the business dealings of his son, despite the fact that even republican members of congress admit there is no evidence to suggest the president did anything wrong. compare that to 62% of voters who have those concerns about trump facing his criminal and civil losses, remember, the guy faces a total of 91 charges across four cases. that is only a two percentage difference in perception. despite an enormous difference in reality. so, what can you do, what should everybody be doing about these skating boys, whether in the kremlin or mar-a-lago? well, the united states did learn a few things since 2014 as well. when russia invaded ukraine with a more aggressive military campaign in 2022, the united states took a different tactic. that was the white house press secretary at the time, different podium. and a national security team made the decision, we're not gonna rely on condemning putin's action after they happened alone, and instead, we are going to verbally punch the bully proactively, verbally. we released previously classified intelligence that exposed russia's plans to invade ukraine. and it wasn't just about naming and shaming. it was actually about exposing their plans, to make it more difficult for them to implement them. and also equipped our allies and partners around the world with the information they needed to fight back. and that brings me back to how to combat trump and his own use of the kremlin playbook. the thing is, we can't relax and assume most people will see through it, and will recognize the absurdity of these arguments because they won't necessarily, and they aren't. and an effort to project on his opponents what he's actually doing is to some degree working, at least better than it should be working, which is why it needs to be called out aggressively and specifically. otherwise, trump may just be able to follow the kremlin playbook right back into the white house. joining me now is congressman adam schiff, he was an impeachment manager during donald trump's first impeachment trial. he was a member of the house select committee on january 6th, and he knows a thing or two about dealing with propaganda and all sorts of belize. congressman, thank you so much for joining me this evening. i want to start with some of what what i just went through because clearly what trump did this weekend, accusing joe biden of being anti-democratic, i see some parallels here with what the kremlin has done in the past, they're tactic of projecting what they're doing on to their opponent. do you? >> absolutely. there is a real method to donald trump's madness, and it's not a playbook that he created. it's one that has been used, i think, by autocrats the world over and for a long time. and that is accuse your opponents of what you do. you know, donald trump's argument is really not that he is not corrupt or that he's not a liar. rather, his argument is everyone is corrupt, everyone are liars. but i am your crook. i am your liar. you should be with me. and it's not just donald trump using this playbook, it's also republicans in congress. donald trump gets impeached on a legitimate basis twice. so, if they were to impeach joe biden illegitimately, why? to dilute the stage, to accuse biden the same kind of misconduct that trump committed when there's absolutely no misconduct in the case. joe biden, rather an effort by republicans in congress, to muddy the waters, to dilute the state of what donald trump won through. you see it in people like elise stefanik, nancy pelosi, accusing her of being authoritarian or an autocrat. it's absurd. but if they can persuade enough people that, oh, everybody does it, then they hope to at least muddy the waters. they undoubtedly are aware that americans are deeply concerned with trump's anti democratic plans. his statements about terminating the constitution, his intention to eviscerate the civil service, and so much more, weaponize the justice department. and he is trying to muddy the waters. >> you know, the muddying -- it's laughable, it's maddening, it's absurd as you said. but sometimes, it also works. that's why people keep doing it. i mean, what should everybody be doing to prevent this projection tactic from working? >> you are right. it seems almost laughable to hear donald trump accuse somebody of violating norms. i think it may be the first time we've heard that word out of his mouth. but in terms of what we can do, i think you are exactly right. we have to be proactive. when we see, as we are now, donald trump saying that he would be winning in california and new york and these other states, if only elections were not rigged, we need to prepare voters for inevitable claims of rigging in the elections when they come. we saw in the last presidential cycle that donald trump said that he lost his early lead. it would have been because of fraud. we need to get out ahead and remind people, no, the absentee ballots often looked very different on the ballots cast on election day because democrats use them more extensively and republicans. so, we need to remind people of the facts in advance. we need to expose what donald trump is saying and arguing. and, you know, demonstrate the fragrances of these falsehoods and keep, you know, holding his feet to the fire. >> one of your former colleagues, liz cheney, just wrote a book. it's coming out tomorrow. rachel maddow is interviewing her shortly. she had this to say. i want you to listen to something she had to say and get your thoughts on the other end. >> do you believe that donald trump, if he were elected next year, that he will try to stay in office beyond a second term, that he would never leave office? >> there is no question. >> you think he will try to stay in power forever? >> absolutely. >> so, she is pretty confident he will just try to stay in power. we have seen that in other autocracies, and we have seen it work in other autocracies. what do you think? >> well, i think she's absolutely right that donald trump will never leave office voluntarily. he just won't. and if anybody has any doubt about that, they should look at what he tried to do in the last presidential election that he lost. but they should listen to what donald trump has to say today. he is making it clear again that when he loses, he will contest it. he will argue that it's rigged and fraudulent. and he will terminate the constitution, if he's allowed to. he's also made it clear that whatever his plan is, to use the military domestically. he tried to do that when he was president. and so, we need to take his threats seriously because we have seen acts on them. and this really is, i think, part of what we are seeing also is his team told him that he is frightening people with all of these anti-democratic talk and plans. and he never backed down in any way, so his response is, i'm simply gun accused them of what i'm doing. >> all that projection. congressman adam schiff, thank you so much for joining me this evening. when donald trump spoke to supporters in iowa over the weekend, he renewed a call he last made in 2020. republican front runner urged followers to go to the polls on election day, specifically, in democratic majority minority cities. >> the most important part of what's coming up is to guard the vote, and you should go into detroit, and you should go into philadelphia, and you should go into some of these places, atlanta, and you should go into some of these places, and we gotta watch those votes when they come in, whether shoved around in wheelbarrows, dumped on the floor. everyone saying -- we are like a third world nation, a third world nation, and we can't let it happen. >> there's a lot in those comments that should raise alarm bells. a civil rights attorney, sherrilyn ifill, but it, quote, it wasn't just 2020, the threat inciting his followers to target votes cast by black voters continues. sherrilyn ifill is the former president of the naacp, legal defense fund. she's now a visiting professor at herbert law school, and she joins me now. sherrilyn, thank you so much for joining me this evening. i just wanted to start there because donald trump, as you've said, is once again targeting black voters and democratic run cities. there is no coincidence here. you pointed out that this is not getting nearly enough attention. i completely agree. let's raise some alarms here. what is he trying to do? >> well, it's all a piece, jen, with a constant conversation you are having with representative schiff. you know, donald trump has always used race as the stalking voice for his authoritarian ambitions. and i have, you know, made no secret of the fact that i think that this has been underplayed from the moment that he talked during the campaign about a federal district judge, judge curio, whom he said was mexican, and therefore could not vote in his favor because we are trying to build a wall. and he was allowed to get away with that. at some point, the chief justice of the united states pushed back on the idea of obama judges, as you may recall in a speech. he said there's no such thing as obama judges and trump judges. but when trump said something about judge curio being a mexican, we did not hear anything from the chief justice of the united states. you recall that trump disparaged a civil rights hero, john lewis. he disparaged elijah cummings. he regularly talked about cities that had a predominantly black population. and his election strategy, which is why he was sued under the kkk act by the legal defense fund, and later by jack smith, was to target precincts in philadelphia, atlanta, detroit, milwaukee. there are reasons why he's targeting those particular precincts. and everything he does, if you think about it, his attacks on ruby freeman and shaye moss, the only way to convince his followers that they were up to no good, that they were, what did he call them, hustlers. the way rudy giuliani could say they were passing flash drives around like it was drugs, like it was heroin. this was all tapping into racial tropes that trump has use. and the failure, i think, of too many in the political realm and certainly in the media is to play down the fact that he uses race as a way to bring his followers along on the project. and the failure to call out the racism from its earliest days, and still until this day, is part of what has allowed trump to move forward unimpeded. and it is incredibly dangerous, but it is a feature of what he always talks about. he did not just talk about the city's. he said we are about to become a third world nation. all of the bells and whistles are there. and unfortunately, trump did not create racism in america or white supremacy. but when he makes those comments, they tap into something that already exists in too much of the american public. and so, always look for it, listen to the pronunciation, atlanta, philadelphia. you know, he has fixed when he's trying to signal something about race. we have to get better at seeing what's happening and understanding how this authoritarian project is being deployed. and i think far too many people are uncomfortable with the idea of focusing on the racist aspect of it, but it is they are staring us in the face. >> it's very clear. and you have been trumpeting this, and we want to, and we are trying to hear as well. i want to ask you about the 14th amendment because you have been very outspoken. you are also launching a whole, a whole center at howard university. so we are very focused on this. and you wrote an op-ed after the colorado decision where the judge, the district court judge, basically said trump was guilty of insurrection, but said he shouldn't be kicked off the ballot, which is very confusing as a non lawyer. and you said, which stuck with me in this op-ed, almost from its inception, all the amendments radical provisions have inspired fear and timidity in jurists of every stripe. why are they so afraid? >> because i think the ambitions of the 14th amendment or great. the ambitions of the 14th amendment were designed to make black people first class citizens. and they also recognized that white supremacy was stubborn and it would be with us for a while, that insurrection had to be met with strength. all of these things are right there in the letter of the 14th amendment. and it has always been the case that the 14th amendment has been underplayed, that even where judges find violations, they have refused to provide a remedy as in the trump case. i mean, if you find that he participated in an insurrection, section three of the 14th amendment tells you he cannot serve. he cannot run on the ballot for either state or federal office. but there is always a way, right from the brown decision, as you may recall, that yes, segregation violates the constitutional rights of black students. but with all deliberate speed while figuring out how we are going to desegregate, there's always a way in which courts try to pull up sharp. and i think this is important because one of the things that donald trump is expert at is running roughshod over law. and he almost, it's almost his superpower. he gets comes up every time he's successful. and he should not be allowed to run you through the 14th amendment anyone who should be allowed to run over the state laws that are the subject of litigations and federal laws that are subject to litigation that he is facing. and even in that context, when trump is so outrageous that he's willing to call the attorney general of the united states, peekaboo. you know, we have explained that this is a racist slur. and yet, he's allowed to say it. and it's not like a front page issue every time he says it. it doesn't stop everyone in their tracks, and we just talk about the fact that he is describing the attorney general of united states in a blatantly racist terms. we just keep it moving because it's trump. and that has to stop. it is offensive, but it also is what allows him to build his power, and it allows us to become complicit in his project. >> well, we got a call it out, that's what i'm hearing from you. and, sherrilyn ifill, we have all learned about the 14th amendment over the last year. you probably know more than most of us. so, i'm looking forward to seeing what you do at the center of howard university. really appreciate you joining us. >> have me back, have me back! >> absolutely, anytime! anytime you want to come on. coming up, is nikki haley actually the modern alternative to donald trump that some republicans are making her out to be? i'm not too sure. and i will explain why next. later, comedian jordan klepper has spent more than -- more time than most talking to trump voters across the country. he will join me to talk about what he has been seeing and hearing. we have to know this. we're just getting started tonight. we'll be right back after a quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey, what's going on? i'm right here! i was bus