bruised, battered and possibly in champion's case, beaten to death. >> okay. is he awake? >> he wasn't responding. we thought he was breathing. he was making noises. but i don't even know if he's breathing now. >> okay. is he awake? do you know? >> his eyes are open. his eyes are open. he's not responding. >> okay. but is he breathing? >> i have no idea. i cannot tell you that. >> that was the 911 call november 19th, after a game as robert champion lay dying on the band bus. other members say he may have undergone a rite of passage crossing bus krp p they describe crossing bus c is walking backward through the bus getting beaten as you go. this is less than three weeks after a clarinet player, bria hunter, was beaten. after her beating was reported to campus police. after she ended up in the hospital with blood clots and cracked thigh bone. three fellow band members are charged with that beating. bria is leaving a & m and plans to sue the university. in a moment, you're going to see what happened when we went searching for answers from the university president. you'll hear him claim there is a veil of secrecy when it comes to brutal hazing. as if no one could have known. keeping them honest, how secret can it be when there is one incident after another involving this band going back years? ten years ago a student was beaten so badly he had to be hospitalized for kidney failure. 13 years ago a band member named ivory lucky was beaten. in 2004, the university settled a lawsuit with lucky. weeks before robert champion's death, band member julian white suspended 26 members for alleged hazing. 26 members. sounds more like common knowledge than something shrouded in secrecy. if he was unaware of his record at his own institution he might have been tipped off by reporting on other incidents involving marching bands in other historically black colleges like this. last november frank deford of "real sports" profiled a freshman band member. at southern university. he was beaten by upper classmen. then when he was an upper classmen, he did the same to others. >> we asked him to demonstrate a typical night of hazing for the freshmen who the upper classmen call crabs. let's imagine that we're having a crab here. how would it work? if it's your turn to haze him. >> he would stand around in the middle where this is. and people all get around him in a circle. you tell him to bend over in a crouch basically position. >> he's like that? and you're hitting him? >> yes, sir. >> right in there? >> yes, sir. so they just keep hitting fast. >> you're not easing up. that's hard. >> it's a competition thing. so the person before me hit him. when the next person comes and hit him harder. >> that's "real sports" frank deford's report. a full year before bria hunter's beating and robert champion's death. we sent jason carroll down to tallahassee looking for answers and accountability. take a look. >> reporter: james, that man in the car there, is florida a & m's president. >> hi, how are you? i'm jason carroll with cnn. >> hey, jason, how are you doing? >> reporter: i'm well. as university president, the buck, so to speak, stops with him. we reached out you to several times in the past. but not successful in terms of getting you to respond. dispute numerous phone calls and e-mails, he did not respond to our questions about hazing. so we caught up with him on campus. do you believe, though, in any way, shape or form that university has done enough to stop what has happened at the school in the past? >> let me just say this, you know, our number one priority is the health, safety, and well-being of our students. and with this tragic situation that we have involving the death of robert champion, our hearts just go out to his family. >> reporter: as you know before robert champion's death, you had another situation with another young woman here at the university. she was hazed, as a result, three young men have now been arrested. that was before his death. and so the question is, why wasn't something done before? >> we have policies, procedures, and every incident of hazing that we've had has gone through the investigatory process. >> reporter: isn't it clear the policies you have in place aren't working and that those policies need to be changed? >> one of the things that we have found with hazing is that there is a -- there's a veil of secrecy. this is a culture not just here at florida a & m university. it's on college and university campuses all across america. >> reporter: have you made any headway into making something changes here at the university? things can you tell us? some tangible things? >> there have been people incarcerated as a result of hazing. so, i mean, there is a stiff law. there are legal consequences for anyone engaged in hazing. we have adopted policies, procedures. but what i think -- >> reporter: nothing seems to be working. >> the other thing is that, when you look at the number of cases that we have had on our campus and you look at cases on other campuses, there is not a rampant kind of behavior. >> reporter: do you believe you bear personally any responsibility for what has happened to any of these students here? >> personal responsibility? i have done everything in accordance to the law here in the state of florida. >> reporter: about three hours after that interview we received this document from the florida department of law enforcement which says during the course of their investigation, they uncovered possible fraud and/or misconduct by employees here at the university. the document reads, "the department has initiated a separate criminal investigation to examine these matters." so to find out more about the new investigation, we wanted to talk to mr. ammons again. just wanted to follow up with you about that possible follow-up 6 ep view with mr mr. ammon. his spokeswoman said she would get back to us, she never did. shortly after that, an interview scheduled with the chairman of the university's board of trustees, solomon badger was canceled. students and band members we spoke to disagree on how the problem has been addressed and whether it can be solved. >> we definitely realize our faults and where we went wrong. and we're just trying to -- it's a move forward from here and take steps necessary to move forward. >> yesterday my friend was telling me how he was hazed. but, you know, he was still telling me, it still goes on. >> reporter: why do you that i is? the university says they're trying to do everything they can to change policy here. >> it's because of us. we have to make change. >> yeah. >> jason, fascinating interview. fascinating information about this new investigation. have you learned any more about it? >> reporter: well, yes. investigators are saying very little about this new investigation, anderson. a source close to the investigation tells me that this new one has to deal with financial fraud. basically what happens, while investigators were looking into the allegations of hazing here, they came up with new allegations about financial fraud. so what we have now are two separate investigations. they are unrelated. but still an unsettling development, obviously, for our university officials here. >> and what do we know about the young men accused of beating this woman bria hunter weeks before robert champion died? >> reporter: that's an interesting part of this story. apparently, bria hunter and these three young men were part of a group called the red dogs. this is the best way to explain it. just before i went on the air with you, i got off the phone with a band member. he explained it this way. basically, what you have when you have this band, anderson, you have various sections within the band. and they form their own subgroups. they're own sort of subclubs. and crossing your section is basically the process where you're hazed and officially initiated into that particular section. now the red dogs, according to what i'm being told by one of these band members, was just a group of people who were from georgia and they banded together and formed their own group. so that's what we're hearing about this particular group that bria hunter belonged to called the red dogs. >> jason, appreciate all the great reporting you've been doing. thank you. jason carroll. the marching band is suspended from performing since robert champion's death. as jason mentioned, both he and bria hunter are believed to have belonged to this subgroup in the band called the red dogs, the red dog order, which is made up of band members from georgia. there are other groups, each kind of enforcing its own brand of discipline, each kind of fraternity unto itself. let's talk about it more with professor ricky jones at the university of louisville and author of "black haze" and also joining us, cnn analyst roland martin. professor, a university like florida a & m. they say they have the no hazing policy, clearly, it's an open secret this is happening. how much does a school, do they know about what's going on? how much do they care about actually stopping it? >> i won't say how much they care about it. but let's cut to the chase. everybody at that school from the band director to the students to the administrators all the way to the president, they know that this is a practice that goes on in these bands. it also goes on in black greek letter organizations which the bands are mimicking. they're very clear on that. when they say they don't know about it, they're either lying or they should be fired for negligence. this is going on throughout the south of hbcu. it's going on predominantly white universities clearly the policies do not work. you are having people injured around the country. you're having people killed. and so what the bands, what other organizations, are really saying to these schools and administrators is this the way we do things. this is the way we always done things. and this is the way we're going to continue to do things. and so as an administrator or elected official in a state that's concerned about this, the question is what are you going to do with these organizations once you that i into account? >> so, rollin, what can be done? is this something that is just existed through, you know, through the years at these schools? is it always going to exist? >> well, first of all, with all due respect to the professor, i think you have to broaden this conversation and goes beyond hbcus, it goes beyond black greek letter fraternities and sororities. i'm a graduate of texas a and m university. two members were charged for hazing. in 1984 a corps cadet died going through exercises. what you have here, vow historically white fraternities and sororities and hazing as well. hazing is about culture. it is about institution where you largely have young folks who are in control of the institutions and so they're doing what they need to do. you have two things going on. you have also alumni members, graduate members who have a belief that, if you want to go through what i went through, i have a greater appreciation of you as a member. so if you don't go through it, then i don't regard you in the same way. so that kind of peer pressure is applied. i still have people writing on my facebook and twitter page saying if you're a paper member of the fraternity if you didn't go through that test that i went through. what is needed is obviously for peers. you can have all of the rules in place, but what you have to have is peers saying i cannot allow this because you're not going to tarnish our reputation and put us in jeopardy by your actions. that's the most important aspect of this. >> professor, do you believe hazing is worse in african-american colleges and fraternities than it is in nonpredominantly african-american ones? >> yes. that's what i was about to say. with all due respect, i'm not saying that hazing does not exist in other organizations. but the physical brand of hazing that we encounter, i've been researching this for over 20 years at this point, i attended the u.s. naval academy before i went to moorehouse. what you're seeing, yes, do you have hazing in white groups. you find a lot of alcohol abuse and pranks going on in those groups. there are no student registered student organizations at hbcus or predominantly white schools where we -- with the frequency that we see with this find the levels of physical abuse in black letter organizations and in hbcus. we just don't find it. >> wait. hold it. professor, are you saying that the -- for the bands at a school like florida a & m, that that behavior is sort of migrated from or been learned from the fraternity and the band is mirroring that fraternity? >> yes. because at hbcus, if you go to any college campus around this country, the most popular people are usually the athletes and the fraternity members. the greeks. if you go to hbcus, you have a third element there. you have athletes at a much lower level than the pwis. you have greeks and you have band members. people don't go to hbcu games to see the football game. they go to see the bands. and let me be clear. i'm not saying this happens at all hbcus and all hbcu bands. it is predominant at hbcus where the bands are a desirable commodity. the famu, southerns, jackson states of the world. and this is why, you know, i work with frank before on that story on hbo last year. there was a blowback from the community accusing people at hbo are prejudiced and myself being misinformed. now we have somebody dead. i said then, it not a question of if, it's a question of when someone else will be killed. and this is what we're dealing with. >> for our viewers, hsbu is historically black colleges and universities. >> for me, this is not a debate and a hbcu institution. in 2002 cavalry members beat six students with ax handles and used horse manure and water on students who misbehave. you know what? texas a&m, predominantly white institution. my point is regardless of whether you're predominantly white or hcbu, what is required to confront hazing, you clearly have to have state laws where people understand you can go to jail if you're edge gauged in this behavior. secondly and most importantly, you have to have individuals who say we're not going to allow this culture to go forward. when i pledge in spring of 1989, i made it clear to my brothers, i'm not getting beat by somebody. it's not going to happen. but here's what was interesting. when i went to the national convention that summer and we talked about hazing, i had brothers in the chapter who said hey, man, don't tell anybody you didn't get hazed or you didn't get any wood, which means paddling, because it may not come out right. i said wait a minute, if we pledged me in the right way, why should we not say it? that is a culture. you have to have people in bands, fraternities and sororities looking at somebody else and say you may be my brother or sister or band member, but you're not going to do that. you're not going to jeopardize us by your actions. that's what's required. we need young people coming in the bands saying i'm not taking a beating simply because i want to play an instrument. this is also trickling down to high school level. how i do know? because i went through this in 1984 with some folks said you have to get beat because you're in the band. i said no i'm not. it's not going to happen. >> professor? >> i've gone through this stuff, again with all due respect, none of that has worked. none of that has worked. not policy changes, not it approach to individual psychology. the point is these students want to belong. this is a culture, i agree we're fundamentally disagreeing, but the culture is so deeply entrenched that there is no way to dismantle it. so this is an argument that i'm making. not many people are making this argument. i'm simply saying that no policy, no laws, remember, hazing is a felony in the state of florida. i have some fraternity brothers at this very same school go to jail a few years ago because of hazing. it cannot be stopped. so the next question is when are university officials and legal officials going to take steps to disband these organizations across the board? >> in our society right now -- >> there is no other option. >> follow me here, in our society, burglaries homicides take place. we have deterrents as a part of that. some say death penalty, life imprisonment. the reality is when you have individuals, we can talk about police brutality where people protect their own on police forces. we have a natural way of life in our country where we protect institutions. people are afraid to be a whistle-blower or being ostracized by the people in the corporation. what i'm saying you is got to have procedures in place. you might not say i can't end it all, but can you at least stop a lot of it if you take a hard line to it. >> professor? you have to disband the organizations. >> exactly. they have taken hard lines since policy changes in 1990 in a different school with hbcu bands. it simply has not worked. so what -- >> do you disband police forces? to get rid of police brutality? no. >> that is apples and oranges. i'm saying we cannot let emotion get in the way of the facts and the facts are that nobody's been able to stop this to date and so if we want to save black lives in these organizations and other lives, period, we get rid of these organizations. this is a particularly black problem. >> no, it's not. i absolutely disagree. >> not on this level. >> i went to predominantly white schools, i know. >> i appreciate both of your perspectives. i want to continue this conversation. we'll have you on both again. refesser, thank you. really interesting points. let us know what you think. we're on facebook, google plus, add us to your circles. follow me on twitter. @andersoncooper. let's talk about it on twitter. there is breaking news about paycheck coming up and which one is the kettle and which one is the pot? multimillionaire mitt romney launches an attack on newt gingrich's wealth. how is that working for him? we have raw politics on that. later a new twist in a bizarre case of a serial killer's rampage discovered by accident. john walsh from "america's most wanted" joins us. welcome to idaho, where they grow america's favorite potatoes. everyone knows idaho potatoes taste great. but did you know they're good for you too? they're high in vitamins and potassium. and idaho potatoes are now certified to carry the heart checkmark from the american heart association for foods low in saturated fat and cholesterol. so they're good for my family, and for yours. heart smart idaho potatoes. always look for the grown in idaho seal. fore! no matter what small business you are in, managing expenses seems to... get in the way. not anymore. ink, the small business card from chase introduces jot an on-the-go expense app made exclusively for ink customers. custom categorize your expenses anywhere. save time and get back to what you love. the latest innovation. only for ink customers. learn more at chase.com/ink is the pain reliever orthopedic doctors recommend most for arthritis pain, think again. and take aleve. it's the one doctors recommend most for arthritis pain... two pills can last all day. ♪ twowill be giving away day. passafree copies of the alcoholism & addiction cure. to get yours, go to ssagesmalibubook.com. raw politics now. we reported last night newt gingrich claimed the clear front-runner status of republican nomination, has caused a tactical shift for the romney campaign. so now all out attacking him. hours ago in an interview on cbs evening news, mr. romney tried out what some might call risky material. listen. >> he's a wealthy man. a very wealthy man. if you have a half a million dollar purchase from tiffany's, you're not a middle class american. >> keep in mine that criticism is coming from a man's who net w