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(soft music) . we are coming on the air from washington, waiting for the formal announcement of what is now the eighth time that the house has tried and failed to elect a speaker. kevin mccarthy again falling short, even after making some of those new concessions to more far right members of his own republican party, right now you're looking live at the floor on the left-hand side of the screen, the house clerk, the tellers counting up the votes and reconfirming that they have all of the numbers right. you probably know the drill by now. we've done this seven other times. they will come out, formally announce the tally, an then one of two things are going to happen. we will either move into a ninth round of voting or there will be a motion to adjourn, in other words to take a break, at least for a little bit, to give republicans an opportunity to huddle again, to try again, to see if a deal is even possible. but you know taking a break is something that the majority of people on the house floor right now, the majority of members elect wood would have to agree to. tbd on that. our team is covering the latest ali vitali, national political correspondent steven kornacki at the big board, punch bowl and msnbc political contributor jake sherman and former communications advise irto former speaker paul ryan brendan buck and marrowa gillespie is with us as well. ali, let me start with you. you have been catching up with members as they move on and off the floor. and we have discussions with pro and anti-mccarthy groups. catch us up to speed. >> what we're seeing is kevin mccarthy engaging with members who have broke within him over the last seven rounds of ballots and we've seen him on the house floor speaking directly to people such as congressman clyde, congressman oval, and hash it out on the floor and it is what is happening in private that is perhaps even more captivating and potentially has the possibility of moving things where they need to go in mccarthy's direction, specifically the number of members who have been huddling in tom emmer's office, just a floor below where we are right now, trying to hash out what they might need in order to get to either yes or in the case of members who don't want to vote yes, possibly voting -- one of the things like congressman scott perry, is the idea that the concessions that were made overnight might have been helpful to some people but not to this entire group. for example, you've got scott perry tweeting, and he echoed this in the hallway, because the concessions were leaked overnight was a breach of trust and that doesn't help to move this along. which of course the leak that he is talking about came from congressman matt gaetz, to some of our colleagues who were here just as late as we were last night. so it's sort of, it gives the idea that while some of these members are negotiating, in good faith, trying to get things that we've seen already, like allowing one member to trigger a vote on the motion to vacate, that's one of the concessions that they got overnight, some of these members are negotiating in good faith, and others of them, though, they do just sort of give a sense that they are in this just to be in this, just to continue the fight, and just to continue denying kevin mccarthy the speakership and that's where we are at this point. these negotiators are trying to hash out, okay, they're probably not going to flip five or six of these folks, but the ones that they can, that is who the negotiations are geared for now. >> ali, stand by. jake sherman, let me go to you. live in this moment with us now, right, as we are looking at some of the conversations happening live on the house floor. based on your reporting and the many, many sources that you have in this building, jake, where is this going next? are we headed to ballot number nine? or is there a time-out so they can basically try and figure out something out so we're not doing jay va view all over again here? >> they would like to get a time-out. unfortunately, they don't think they have the votes right now to get a time-out, to adjourn. remember, there are no rules right now in the house of representatives. so they can either vote again, or adjourn. they need a majority to adjourn. the democrats don't want to help them out. so that's where we are. so we're probably going to a ninth ballot. maybe a tenth ballot. there needs to be an agreement if they want to take the weekend off, or else they just have to keep voting until they have a speaker. that's where we're going. from a broader sense, i don't know where we're going. mccarthy says he will stay in this. his task as ali can tell you, is herculean, he has 0 no votes and has to clop it to five. that is really difficult. a lot of these relationships that we're seeing right now, a lot of these dynamicing between the right and mccarthy are not new, and despite what people are saying, they are very personal. these are gripes that go back a decade. i mean even more. between mccarthy and the right. so it is just, it is a very volatile situation, hallie, and one with no logical conclusion at this moment. >> you have to wonder, i know this is the question that nobody can answer, but what will be the game changer, right? because there are several paths, obviously one is that mccarthy stays in, gets whatever concessions they will get, over the number he needs to be speak herb and another is the discussion do you change the rules, if there is a plure at, right? the problem is hakeem jeffries as the numbers stand out, with that tally, and ending up being the next speaker, what is the realistic next best path? what is the thing that everybody is talking to, talking to now, given how things have gone down over the last several hours here? >> i want to point one thing out that has nothing to do with your question. what you're seeing there on the left or whatever side it is, it's not me, it is matt gaetz talking to jim mcgovern. he is the top democrat on the house rules committee along with one of his top aides on the right, slightly out of the screen. those are two people who understand the procedures of the house, and the top aide better than anybody, i'm curious if that is the conversation they're having. maybe there a rules change. >> will that happen -- >> mccarthy couldn't win a pleurality vote? could they move to a secret ballot? i don't think that would pass. but what is the way out of this? the way out of this is for mccarthy to continue to give away every single tool he has to be an effective speaker and he will just limp along for as long as he can until some conservative takes him out over a perceived slooitd sleight that is perhaps nonsense an i hate to be blunt here but that is the rouse of representatives and it is reflected of the extraordinary partisan country that we have and there is no end to this besides mccarthy dropping out or cutting some sort of deal that gives him no ability to govern the institution in a way that is conducive to anything and you have to think into the future. passing a rules package. passing a government funding bill. passing a debt limit bill. i mean this is electing a speaker this. should be relatively easy after taking a majority. but that's where we are. >> steve, we will squeeze you in because we see some movement on the floor and there is votes, matt gaetz for donald trump as speaker, and two others, sparks being present. talk us through the math here. >> a little bit of movement there but none of it toward mccarthy from the people who have been against him. this is the list we have been tracking. vote after votes now. these are the republicans who have not been backing mccarthy on previous ballots. here is how they just voted on the eighth ballot. none of them switched over and voted for mccarthy. lauren boebert put the name of kevin hern from oklahoma out there. josh brecheen fellow oklahomaen voted for -- matt gaetz voting for trump. you also have again, victoria sparks from indiana, taking to voting present. so it just adds up to that number of 21. 21 republicans who have been unwilling now consistently to vote for kevin mccarthy. and if he's going to become speaker, numerically he could avoid for, voting for somebody besides him. if that happens, if four voted for a name other than kevin mccarthy, every other republican, all others on this list, would then have to vote for mccarthy. they couldn't vote present. they couldn't abstain. you would have four turning around and voting for somebody else. and you look at the names on the list, the comments they have been making in public and frankly some of the actions they are taking, it is not difficult to see four right away. think last night when mccarthy was trying to adjourn the house last night, and giving that talk now, trying to adjourn it now, biggs voted against that, boebert voted against, that crane voted against. that gaetz voted against that. that thing only succeeded by a whisker last night and there were two democrats who just didn't vote. if those democrats had voted, that motion to adjourn last night would have gone down in flames. so just based on that, that right there, would be the limit of what mccarthy could afford to lose in a vote for speaker. and there's so much more. you got bob good, bob good is saying i will never, ever vote for -- >> he said stop asking me because it is literally never going to happen. >> and that would be, again, five, if there are five who are dug in, that much, as long as all of the democrats continue to vote for hakeem jefferys, if there are five that are dug in at the bob good level, it seems that way, there is no math for kevin mccarthy. >> thank you. brendan buck, let me go to you. what is mccarthy's move here? what are you hearing from the folks you're talking on the capitol hill regarding the next phase of leadership? >> the fact that there is enough people who don't want to even adjourn shows threw are enough people who don't want to have progress. and kevin mccarthy right now wants to take a break. he's been negotiating with people, he wants to bring them in a room, and a couple of reasons, one to advance progress, and one, to also show the rest of the conversation, hey, i want you to know what i'm doing. i want to read in the rest of the conversation so they have some level of transparency of what is going on. but also to show those people that he is negotiating with that he's getting way over his skis, and remember there are a lot of people in this conversation who are not going to like the kind of stuff that kevin mccarthy is already giving away and some of the people who are asking for things probably need to see that their colleagues are not very happy. they need to see that kevin mccarthy is already extending himself. and he probably can't go any further. there is not a whole lot further he could go. he is giving lots of things away. but kevin mccarthy can't even get to that point. he can't get to have a conference meeting to try to make progress, because there are, as was just said, there are people who don't want kevin mccarthy to be speaker, they don't want progress. i promise you, they put up four votes last night as a show of strength saying if we wanted to, we could put up another one to stop you and that's what they're doing right now, they're putting up enough votes to stop a motion to adjourn, eventually they will have to give in and it reminds you that there are some people who are negotiating perhaps in good faith and there are some people who don't want there to be a deal because they don't want kevin mccarthy to ever be speaker. >> kevin mccarthy's game plan to this point, and brendan knows this well, he is willing to be in this for weeks, right? if there is any sign that kevin mccarthy is willing to back off, that's the ball game, right? i mean that's it. his whole strategy, the whole point of his strategy, is to say i am not moving a muscle, even in the face of these republican so-called rebels, also not moving a muscle. are we in this until february, and in other words, when does the possibility of this like again, so-called consensus candidate, steve scalise, somebody, somebody who would be more palatable to the majority of the republican conference, 218 members, when does that start to become more of a conversation point? >> i think what you're seeing play out right now is the lack of a plan that just, i will use the term chaos caucus. they don't have a plan, and of their they're simply operating on the agenda of taking down the establishment and they believe kevin mccarthy represents and what they're doing is hurting the american people because without a functioning house, there are no constituent services and no committees and i can't imagine, although i don't know, this going into february, because at some point the american people will watch this and get frustrated and fed up and for the gaetzs and the boeberts of the world, who are telling everybody, they are fighting for the american people, they're not. they're just not. >> i would like you to stand by, along with the rest of our team, and reporters and analysts, i want to bring in somebody who might give us some clarity, bruce westerman of arkansas, who supported kevin mccarthy on all eight ballots so far. congressman-elect, thank you very much for being on the show this afternoon. >> thank you. good to be with you. >> let me pose the same question to you that we've been talking about on the air. what is going to be different if this heads into ballot number nine? this is an eighth frankly embarrassing defeat for kevin mccarthy. what is going to move the needle here? what is going to change moving forward? >> well, i think there are a lot of discussions that are happening in the background, and eventually, we'll get this worked out, and i don't know how long it will take, but it is something that is obviously very important to country, and it is also important that we are talking about a governing body, in the united states that you can't let 10% of a group dictate to the other 90% what's going to happen. so that's how i believe there is going to be a strong resistance to not going with kevin mccarthy. and i'm one of the people that's going to continue voting for kevin mccarthy, because this has become more than just about the speaker's race, it is more than about kevin mccarthy, but it's about having a role in a form of government where the majority rules and you respect that and you move on. and also, there is a team in the locker room. there is a lot of talk about what needs to happen and what should happen, but we've got to get on the field if we're going to make anything happen and right now everyone is sitting in the locker room talking about what should be done. so i'm ready to get past this and get on to the people that the people have sent us here to do. >> there is an interesting dynamic in the colleagues of the republican conference, there is 90/10, not to be held, 90% of the conference, by 10% of members-elect. but there is a risk that if kevin mccarthy makes too many concessions, to these so-called rebels, that he could alienate some moderates. are there things that kevin mccarthy could do that would be a bridge too far for you? >> well, so far, the rules that we've got are actually good rules and i think they will even strengthen mccarthy as speaker, because it is putting limits and side boards on how much power the speaker has. so that when the speaker is negotiating with the senate in the future, the speaker can say i can't do that, i can't take a massive omnibus, you know, two days before it is time to vote on it, and i think we'll do things like pass the appropriation bill, and send a cr to the senate, and say pass the bill, and send them back, or pass the cr and send it back. and put the pressure on the senate, rather than the house getting jammed by the senate all the time. so there are some things in the rules if i go back, and i think they're actually going to make the speaker's office more effective, so a lot of us don't have any problem with the rules, but it is becoming more about than just the rules. >> are you prepared for this to go weeks, potentially congressman? and if so, do you have concerns about national security? >> that's a concern. that's why we need to get this moving forward. but it's also about the fact that 10% can't dictate to the 90%. and i'm here for as long as it takes to make sure that doesn't happy. >> congressman-elect, thank you. the floor is formally announcing the tally. we will listen in. >> i would like to nominate kevin mccarthy as speaker of the house. >> the gentleman is recognized. >> kevin mccarthy has been our leader for the past four years, and has overwhelming support within this conference. my intent today is to address the american people who have been watching these proceedings -- >> the house is not in order. [ gavel ]. >> my intent today is to address the american people who have been watching these proceedings and are concerned about what they have seen in this chamber over the past two days. i am a member of the house freedom caucus. and i am proud to say so. i believe the 20 members that have nominated an alternate candidate have expressed their concerns with leadership, and many of those concerns have been addressed and accepted by leader mccarthy and this conversation. i believe this battle we are raging must end. kevin mccarthy fully understands that being speaker of the house will not be easy. kevin is aware that any legislation, he would like to pass out of this house, will require support and endorsement from the freedom caucus. this is where i believe we can hold the speaker accountable. kevin has made changes to the house rules at the request of all members. one of those rules changes was the motion to vacate the chair. which nancy pelosi removed four years ago to avoid the scrutiny and the accountability. the motion to vacate the chair that has not been offered for a floor vote in over 100 years calls for the removal of the speaker of the house. kevin has reinstated the motion to vacate the chair, which i believe was the right thing to do. this motion allows us, the republican conference, to hold the speaker accountable. the american people gave us, my friends, us, the republicans, the majority, and their vote of confidence, to change the direction of our country. the american people are begging for leadership. because the biden administration certainly has not placed the american people first. kevin mccarthy understands, he understands he must protect that speaker's gavel, and abide the will of the american people. the decisions we make in the 118th congress are critical to the future of our country. the decisions we make, the legislation we pass, as a republican majority, must have the support of the american people. we have a crisis on every corner in america. and the american people are expecting republicans to bring this much-needed change. we must come together today and implement that change. to those of you outside of washington that are watching, kevin mccarthy, and this republican majority, understand your pain. we understand your pain. we feel it. we understand we must secure our border, and we must unleash our energy sector and become energy independent, we must curb inflation by reducing spending. and we must support ou